Robinson... How Do We Think He's Doing ?

[Clackscat]

I think St Johnstone this season are a different proposition. Number of new younger players and a more expansive style. Struggled early doors but since their 6-0 Celtic gubbing have been THE form team. Great achievement on lower crowds than us.

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk

[DEWELL]

Ditto Livingston. We're going to be in relegation battle because Robinson has signed too many duffers.

[superward]

On 12/8/2018 at 11:52 PM, underboyleheating said:

I often wonder how Tommy Wright would do at Motherwell if he was our manger. He appears to perform miracles at St. Johnstone year in year out on a similar budget to ours,

 

St Johnstone and Tommy Wright are often raised up as the best thing since sliced bread and far ahead of the teams of similar size/following etc like us...

Since St Jonnstone have came up (2008/2009) they've finished top 6, 6 times (6th, 3rd, 6th, 4th, 4th, 4th) and bottom 6, 3 times (8th, 8th, 8th). Been in Europe 5 seasons. 3 cup semi's and 1 final which of course they won the Scottish Cup.

Since 2008/9 we have top 6, 6 times (5th, 6th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th) and bottom 6, 3 times (7th, 11th, 9th). Been in Europe  6 times. 1 cup semi and 3 cup finals.

Other than that elusive cup win I'd say that's not hugely different....

[underboyleheating]

On 12/11/2018 at 5:21 PM, superward said:

St Johnstone and Tommy Wright are often raised up as the best thing since sliced bread and far ahead of the teams of similar size/following etc like us...

Since St Jonnstone have came up (2008/2009) they've finished top 6, 6 times (6th, 3rd, 6th, 4th, 4th, 4th) and bottom 6, 3 times (8th, 8th, 8th). Been in Europe 5 seasons. 3 cup semi's and 1 final which of course they won the Scottish Cup.

Since 2008/9 we have top 6, 6 times (5th, 6th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th) and bottom 6, 3 times (7th, 11th, 9th). Been in Europe  6 times. 1 cup semi and 3 cup finals.

Other than that elusive cup win I'd say that's not hugely different....

I agree we are similar and that’s why it’s good to compare the two sides and what they have achieved since 2008/09. However, in my opinion the Scottish Cup win puts Tommy slightly ahead of our previous managerial attempts to win domestic silverware since 1991.  Getting to a final is one thing, winning it is the hardest thing no matter who you are facing. Is Robinson the answer to our domestic cup woes? Only time will tell if he will be handed the reins for another season. 

[steelboy]

I don't see the point of looking back to 2008. The issue is that we have been in decline since June 2013 due to mismanagement in the dug out and in the boardroom.

[weeyin]

59 minutes ago, steelboy said:

I don't see the point of looking back to 2008. The issue is that we have been in decline since June 2013 due to mismanagement in the dug out and in the boardroom.

When you are a team of our size and finish second in the league, the only possible direction is downwards.

We have been performing much closer to our mean (and median) in recent years. The only difference now is that we aren't losing money (as we did in our "sucessful" years).  We are always going to have more of these kinds of seasons. That is why I said when we were qualifying for Europe, and being best of the rest, that everyone should enjoy it as much as they could because it would be back to the mid-bottom table fights soon enough.

[steelboy]

Being in decline relative to other clubs like Hibs, Aberdeen and Hearts who recovered from previous mismanagement is inevitable.

We have been in absolute decline though. We have had a manager who treated his job as a part time role. We have allowed training to happen without qualified coaches present. We have signed dozens of players not up to the standard of the league. We currently have a manager who not only plays an unwatchable brand of football but prides himself on it.

Those issues are internal ones.

[weeyin]

And yet we've stayed in the league, and last year got to 2 Cup Finals and finished 7th.

My thoughts on the brand of football are well documented on here, as well as my thoughts on the "need to earn the right to play" nonsense. And it would be churlish to not recognize that by playing guys like Bigi and Turnbull that situation has brought some improvement.

There has, however, been huge changes off and on the field in the past 2 or 3 seasons to contend with. From JB selling, to the Well Society to the changes that Les implemented to the overhaul required to meet Project Brave criteria to ground improvements. The fact we have made it through that, stayed in the league and turned a profit is pretty impressive for any business.

I think where we agree is that now we have been through that transition, we need to improve the product on the park. I don't have any expectation that it will lead to massive improvements in league position, but I'd rather we finished 6th or 7th playing more attractive football than 6th or 7th just "earning the right to play".

 

[Big Stall]

Unusually, I actually agree with Steelboy here.

Forget absolute or relative decline, you can even forget where we are finishing in the league. Look at it this way, how many of our current squad would get a game in McGhee's team (first time round) or McCalls best team?

Honestly, I think the answer is none of our players sadly, and I am generally one of the "happy clappers" around here.

 

[superward]

Not many. But the wage bill is a lot lower so I would expect that. An unfortunate consequence of living within our means.

[Big Stall]

2 hours ago, superward said:

Not many. But the wage bill is a lot lower so I would expect that. An unfortunate consequence of living within our means.

 

I would expect the quality to reduce yes as the wage bill reduces, but to potentially not have one player good enough to get into either of our best two teams of the last 10 years?

I think some of it falls at the door of the manager and the type of players he is taking on.

 

[steelboy]

Is the wage bill lower? 

Given that turnover seems to increase every I doubt it. Record turnover surely means record wage bill? There's obviously a bit more too it than that when comparing with 2008 but i suspect it's still higher.

[weeyin]

12 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Is the wage bill lower? 

Given that turnover seems to increase every I doubt it. Record turnover surely means record wage bill? There's obviously a bit more too it than that when comparing with 2008 but i suspect it's still higher.

It's difficult to be 100% sure as I don't have access to those accounts. But given JB and a couple of ex-directors admissions about how they lost money by overpaying players (especially when it came to bonuses), I think it's a fair bet our salary budget is less now. At least in real terms. 

[Yorkyred]

23 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Is the wage bill lower? 

Given that turnover seems to increase every I doubt it. Record turnover surely means record wage bill? There's obviously a bit more too it than that when comparing with 2008 but i suspect it's still higher.

It was mentioned by I think Craigan on tv that we were running a very low budget and it was going to be reduced again next season. There was a table lately that showed the playing budgets for each premiership team and while Killies had gone up by 20 odd percent ours had gone down. I’m guessing it’s well down on the budget McGee had. Record turnover is deceiving given expenditure including paying the debt off. It will most certainly not be even close to our record wage bill.

[rinkydink]

Per the notes to the accounts:

"Costs for the year increased by £1.35m.  Staff costs made up the majority of that increase...through a combination of increased player bonuses in light of improved performance in both the league and domestic cups, a modest increase to the playing budget with a view to an improved position on the park and the introduction of Project Brave...".

 

[steelboy]

If the increase is £1.35m then we are clearly well above of McGhee's first spell or McCall's good run. 

[Yorkyred]

53 minutes ago, steelboy said:

If the increase is £1.35m then we are clearly well above of McGhee's first spell or McCall's good run. 

Most of that will be bonuses paid for getting to two cup finals I would have thought. The basic playing budget before bonuses is not £1.35 million but as they state a modest increase on the previous season. If you count in bonuses then this season will probably see a big drop in the playing budget because we won’t be seeing those bonuses.

[steelboy]

When the Well Society was first starting the player wage bill was around £2m so if we are paying out an extra million we probably spent about £3m on players last season.

If we paid out a million quid in bonuses for getting to two cup finals i'd say we need to look at the bonus system as that more than the gate money for one final. It would explain why the players can't be arsed in the league though!

[mfc]

Players should be desperate to get to cup finals for the sake of there own careers,any financial reward through bonuses paid by the club,should come by actually winning the thing and not being a runner up.

[Yorkyred]

41 minutes ago, steelboy said:

When the Well Society was first starting the player wage bill was around £2m so if we are paying out an extra million we probably spent about £3m on players last season.

If we paid out a million quid in bonuses for getting to two cup finals i'd say we need to look at the bonus system as that more than the gate money for one final. It would explain why the players can't be arsed in the league though!

As it states the playing budget saw a “ modest increase” . To be fair getting to cup finals is more than just gate money. It’s prize money, hospitality,  increased  merchandise sales ( they ran out of replica tops and the club had no half price kit sales they always do after Christmas), extra exposure for the football club, increased season ticket sales, to name just a few things.

[weeyin]

The accounts state that costs increased by £1.35 million, the "majority" of which were Staff costs, (but that includes the extra staff needed to meet Project Brave criteria), and increased costs for staff, stewards, power light and heating from the extra games played at Fir Park.

If you look at the reported figures, the actual staff costs in 2018 were about £794k more than 2017.

Which still means the "majority" of the cost increase went to staff. It doesn't mean we spaffed a million-plus on players, though. 

[David]

19 hours ago, Big Stall said:

I would expect the quality to reduce yes as the wage bill reduces, but to potentially not have one player good enough to get into either of our best two teams of the last 10 years?

At this exact moment in time, yes, but I'd say that Cedric and Moult would be in with a shout of making either team, and aside from the Randolph years under McCall I'd say that Carson would be in with a shout also.

This has been a down year for sure, but just as easily as we found Moult and Cedric not that long ago, we could easily do the same this summer and kick on again.

[steelboy]

14 hours ago, weeyin said:

The accounts state that costs increased by £1.35 million, the "majority" of which were Staff costs, (but that includes the extra staff needed to meet Project Brave criteria), and increased costs for staff, stewards, power light and heating from the extra games played at Fir Park.

If you look at the reported figures, the actual staff costs in 2018 were about £794k more than 2017.

Which still means the "majority" of the cost increase went to staff. It doesn't mean we spaffed a million-plus on players, though. 

What is the total staff costs in the accounts?

[weeyin]

Actual salaries were £3,557,247 compared to £2,849,993 the previous year.

With social security and pensions costs included, £3,931,798 compared to £3,137,508 the prior year.

The most interesting part of the accounts are the gate receipts which more than doubled compared to the prior year. Just shows how important a good cup run or two means to the bottom line.

[underboyleheating]

This Tommy Wright bloke’s a chancer, never in doubt Mr Robinson.