2019-20 Rebuild

[twistandshout1983]

2 hours ago, David said:

Then they can either pay up, or fuck off. 

My thoughts exactly

[ONeils4oyarder]

They'll be forced to pay whatever the tribunal decides...but that could be a bit of a drawn out process.

[Richie]

Agreed 250k + sell-on

Or

Taken to tribunal and 300/400k?

 

[Neilwell86]

34 minutes ago, steelboy said:

He can't sign with Rangers because he's under contract at Fir Park. They made him a great offer and we let him enter the final six months of his deal without any offer.

We release boys every year and no one blinks an eye. No one is worrying about where Kyle McDonald or Jason Krones will be next season. It's a lopsided deal with a lot of fans: if the boys are good they owe us a few years but if they aren't first team material they are quickly forgotten.

Looks as though you aren't worrying too much either, Jason Krones was released in Janury, now with Albion Rovers I believe.

[MrBeee]

I am the only person that couldn't give a flying fluck about Hastie he does t want to play for us goodluck to him yesterdays chip papers we shall find someone else that does!

We shall find many more.Its done its over with nobody to blame it happens.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, David said:

Not often I find myself agreeing with you, but you're bang on here. The number of times I've read about Hastie showing a lack of loyalty and respect is insane. 

The club do what they do for these lads because they believe there'll be a payoff at the end of it, be it a transfer fee or in performances for the club. They don't do it out of loyalty to the player, so why should the player feel obliged to return the favour?

It's business, nothing more. 

Yep, full agreement from me as well.

Make yer money where and when you can. Bit of a shiter as he was good fun to watch, but that's about the end of it.

[sbcmfc]

Better players who have contributed a great deal more have come and gone.

He looks promising, but not entirely convinced he’s not a flash in the pan.

We can’t tie everyone down on long term contracts, or we’ll end up with a bloated squad of guys who aren’t good enough. Occasionally one will slip through the net. Whether that applies to Hastie and he goes on to great things, or if he ends up playing part time in 5 years we can’t predict.

[Mintymac]

Your 100% correct . Hastie moves on . We build a squad for next season without him . Would I have liked him to stay .. yes . I’m I really that bothered .. no . Can we cope without him .. absolutely . End of 

 

[dennyc]

Posted full Tribunal stuff on previous rebuild thread on 12 March.

In short, as per the most recent regulations I can find.

When Clubs do not agree fee............

1.    50% of the  maximum offer from the "buyer" must be paid to the "selling " club when the player is first registered with the "buying" Club. So if Rangers offer £100k we get £50k at registration.

Then

2.     Tribunal process starts immediately and within 28 days of the Authorities arriving at a Fee Amount, the full balance must be paid by the buyer to the seller. Or the full difference returned to the buyer if that is the outcome. So no partial payments over a number of years it seems.  Interest and penalties apply if full payment not made as instructed. 

 

So there is no reason the process should take any great length of time as it commences at Registration with the new Club. Ferguson from Accies to Aberdeen was settled within a few months. Aberdeen paid £50000 up front followed by the balance of the allocated fee of £237950 within 28 days of the finding. Figures taken from  Aberdeen's Audited Accounts.

The ridiculous part is that the reasons for any award are not made public and in  the Accies v Aberdeen case both Clubs were banned from disclosing full details of how the fee was calculated. Unlike cross border transfers the calculation of the fee is not as laid out by Uefa. So we are at the mercy of the Blazers in Hampden. Its a lottery and any award does not appear to include "add ons".

I really wish Hastie had headed anywhere but Scotland. Much more straightforward.

[numpty]

And the reality is, we're likely to get closer to Rangers' valuation than ours.  On paper, he's just a young lad with half a season of SPFL experience, comprising about half-a-dozen impressive performances, and a similar number of mediocre ones.

[David]

29 minutes ago, numpty said:

And the reality is, we're likely to get closer to Rangers' valuation than ours.  On paper, he's just a young lad with half a season of SPFL experience, comprising about half-a-dozen impressive performances, and a similar number of mediocre ones.

I may be wrong, but isn't it more based on how long he's been with the club? Hence the development fee tag that's applied?

[weeyin]

44 minutes ago, David said:

I may be wrong, but isn't it more based on how long he's been with the club? Hence the development fee tag that's applied?

There is a FIFA formula that many countries use that is based on multiple factors such as category of training facilities, number of years with the club etc. but I don't think Scotland (or England) adhere to that exact one.

[Yorkyred]

17 minutes ago, weeyin said:

There is a FIFA formula that many countries use that is based on multiple factors such as category of training facilities, number of years with the club etc. but I don't think Scotland (or England) adhere to that exact one.

I though Burrows indicated there was a set formula in place ? Or maybe i’m not remembering it correctly.

[Kmcalpin]

If Hastie departs for Ibrox, then the clubs will try to negotiate a figure.   If that isn't possible it'll go to an SPFL trinbunal. I'm sure there's some kind of formula in place taking into account such factors as age, first team appearances, wages etc.   It would seem that we've done internally this some time ago and arrived at a figure of about £350K which has been fairly well publicised since.  In negotiaions we might acccept a lower figure in return for add ons.  Expect Sevco's opening bid to be about £50k.  

[steelboy]

1 hour ago, Yorkyred said:

I though Burrows indicated there was a set formula in place ? Or maybe i’m not remembering it correctly.

I think the SFA generally just use the FIFA guidelines going by the Telfer and Ferguson decisions.

In England the tribunals can award millions if they think the player has potential but up here it's more formulaic.

[weeyin]

8 minutes ago, steelboy said:

I think the SFA generally just use the FIFA guidelines going by the Telfer and Ferguson decisions.

In England the tribunals can award millions if they think the player has potential but up here it's more formulaic.

Under FIFA guidelines, there is Training Compensation and Solidarity Payments. I think it's the Training Compensation this one falls under.

Quote

Article 20 RSTP is entitled “Training compensation” and provides as follows:

“Training compensation shall be paid to a player’s training club(s): (1) when a player signs his first contract as a professional, and (2) each time a professional is transferred until the end of the season of his 23rd birthday. The obligation to pay training compensation arises whether the transfer takes place during or at the end of the player’s contract. The provisions concerning training compensation are set out in Annexe 4 of these regulations.”

Article 21 RSTP is entitled “Solidarity mechanism” and provides as follows:

“If a professional is transferred before the expiry of his contract, any club that has contributed to his education and training shall receive a proportion of the compensation paid to his former club (solidarity contribution). The provisions concerning solidarity contributions are set out in Annexe 5 of these regulations.”

 

[WishyWell]

I think the FIFA guidelines only apply to situations where the player is signing for a club in a different association. Where he moves to a club in the same association, that association’s rules apply - so in our case the SFA’s. The amounts due for each year the player has been with a club beyond the age of 11 on the SFA’s scale are lower than those on the FIFA scale - no surprise there, eh?

[weeyin]

7 minutes ago, WishyWell said:

I think the FIFA guidelines only apply to situations where the player is signing for a club in a different association. Where he moves to a club in the same association, that association’s rules apply - so in our case the SFA’s. The amounts due for each year the player has been with a club beyond the age of 11 on the SFA’s scale are lower than those on the FIFA scale - no surprise there, eh?

I think a number of member countries use the FIFA formula, but you're right - local association rules take precedence. That's why it's much more beneficial for us when a youngster (like Erwin) moves south. 

[daver]

12 hours ago, weeyin said:

Under FIFA guidelines, there is Training Compensation and Solidarity Payments. I think it's the Training Compensation this one falls under.

There's been talk of us potentially trying to agree a deal including a sell-on clause but would we need to do that if we're due compensation anyway if they sell before the age of 23?

[WishyWell]

14 minutes ago, daver said:

There's been talk of us potentially trying to agree a deal including a sell-on clause but would we need to do that if we're due compensation anyway if they sell before the age of 23?

If we go down the Development Fee route, we will be paid now (hopefully!) for the years we’ve had him, so wouldn’t be due any more compensation in the future. 

[Yoshi-1991]

Not being funny, but i dont see Rangers actually making any money off him. Wouldn't be bothering with sell on and just take the cash now.

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, Yoshi-1991 said:

Not being funny, but i dont see Rangers actually making any money off him. Wouldn't be bothering with sell on and just take the cash now.

Agree with that, I really can see Hastie going the way if numerous other "players with a bright future" especially if he goes to Ibrox and never gets a 1st team chance. I really wonder if Rangers had to pay a transfer fee for him would they still be interested I think not.

If he kicks on and continues to impress then fair enough but that's a big if, especially with potentially limited 1st team opportunities at Rangers, so for me take the cash now as I don't see a big money transfer out of Ibrox for him in a few years

[stuwell]

Thought there was a scheme where 5% of players transfer fees was distributed between any team - including amateur - that had trained a player. Seem to remember an ex Aberdeen players previous team got a fair whack years later. 

[dennyc]

It’s quite simple really. If it’s not cross border then you can forget any Uefa or Fifa guidelines. Hopefully any amount decided upon takes into account all the factors folk are bringing up but we are unlikely to ever know for certain. It is not guaranteed and is up to how the panel in each particular case views things. And any decision arrived at is likely to be clouded in secrecy as per the Ferguson to Aberdeen example where a gagging order was placed on both Clubs.

So if it is Rangers, they will offer a low figure, we will demand a higher figure and then barring agreement it’s in the hands of others. That’s how it works and any Club, including ourselves, would sensibly bid low if they were in Rangers position as buyer.

The procedures are clear as day in the SFL procedures. And no mention of following Uefa guidelines from what I can see.

 

 

[wellowell]

Hope we do sign someone this week as lost interest completely in Hastie even the way he announced his player of year showed he’d lost interest so let him leave. The clubs and tribunal can then sort it but as it’s 100% certain he’s away let’s concentrate on the 2019/2020 rebuild as he won’t be part of that .