2019-20 Rebuild

[superward]

Both McAlear and McKinstry under contract so it's a transfer fee involved rather than a development fee like Hastie.

[Welldaft Mk1]

Posted on P&B but I would be disappointed if we let McAlear leave this window unless he has said he will not be renewing his contract - given I believe he only has one year left. 

Sure if Norwich are offering a v good deal, but if it is the usual £200k + add ons we seem to be offered for our youth then not for me. 

Looks like we may be getting hee haw for Cadden although that seems to be such a protracted affair.  But we must be due circa £500k from McKinstry deal and Hastie even assuming we get £300k which would be around £100k less than we are looking for. 

Might also be complete bullshit and as stated the club may have little choice. But I hope we are not that desperate for a few hundred thousand £’s... 

[steelboy]

We don't have much leeway with players u18 as we can't sign them by their 18th birthday.

There's no point in knocking back a fee for a boy who's not ready for the first team and who can leave for minimal compensation in a year anyway. We are as well shipping him out for the cash and developing someone who might play for us. 

[supermarv]

I’m sure I mentioned on here or P&B when all the Leicester and West Ham interest in MacLear was going about that intact he was going to Norwich from what I’d heard. Seems to be a good prospect and it’s never nice to lose players this way but we move on and let the next player develop further.

[Inthebasement]

Setting aside the particular circumstances of the Turnbull affair, it seems increasingly like youth development is a busted business model for small clubs, and I can see why other small clubs are giving up on it. We are producing real talent at the moment, but are losing them before they can contribute to the first team, and without any substantial compensation. Hastie could easily wind up as a Scotland player (and he may well not of course) but either way all Well get is a modest fee and a good quarter season in the first team. With McAlear we look like getting neither.

This is not just a Well thing and the club are not at fault, small clubs alomst never command large fees for their best youth players. The compensation regime must surely be overhauled in favour of the seling club, to protect the viabilty of provincial clubs working to develop talent.

[Kmcalpin]

55 minutes ago, Inthebasement said:

Setting aside the particular circumstances of the Turnbull affair, it seems increasingly like youth development is a busted business model for small clubs, and I can see why other small clubs are giving up on it. We are producing real talent at the moment, but are losing them before they can contribute to the first team, and without any substantial compensation. Hastie could easily wind up as a Scotland player (and he may well not of course) but either way all Well get is a modest fee and a good quarter season in the first team. With McAlear we look like getting neither.

This is not just a Well thing and the club are not at fault, small clubs alomst never command large fees for their best youth players. The compensation regime must surely be overhauled in favour of the seling club, to protect the viabilty of provincial clubs working to develop talent.

We are still making something from the sale of youth players and the money accrued from the departures of Stuart McKinstry, Jake Hastie and probably Reece McAlear will still be very welcome.  I agree with your overall point that the rules need to be changd but that is never going to happen as long as money is poured into the bigger boys by fans of all clubs, large and small. TV has a lot to answer for, although the issue is wider than that alone. Not fashionable but more attention needs to be focused on grass roots football rather than large English clubs or Euro giants.     

[Yodo]

Rather watch a team of homegrown players than some of these donkeys who have come from down south and don't give a jot about the club 

[Cumbaeyabas]

1 hour ago, Yodo said:

Rather watch a team of homegrown players than some of these donkeys who have come from down south and don't give a jot about the club 

Like Louis Moult, Tom Alfred or Dick Tait?

And, yes, I know Tait was born in Galashiels.

At risk of getting banned: you really are a total rocket, Yodo.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Cumbaeyabas
Typo

[steelboy]

Anyone else suspect that Cadden will never play in MLS? 

Loan to Oxford then transfered to Oxford imo

[weeyin]

24 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Anyone else suspect that Cadden will never play in MLS? 

Loan to Oxford then transfered to Oxford imo

Certainly possilbe with the weird salary caps and roster rules that US sports teams are subjected to. Not unusual for players to join a squad and then be offloaded without playing to make room for someone else's wages.

[Yodo]

2 hours ago, Cumbaeyabas said:

Like Louis Moult, Tom Alfred or Dick Tait?

And, yes, I know Tait was born in Galashiels.

At risk of getting banned: you really are a total rocket, Yodo.

So you think Moult ,Aldred & Tait are donkeys 

[weeyin]

4 hours ago, Yodo said:

Rather watch a team of homegrown players than some of these donkeys who have come from down south and don't give a jot about the club 

Fraser Kerr, Dom Thomas, Craig Moore and Bob McHugh in a starting 11 would have you beelin'

[MelvinBragg]

While it's obviously frustrating to lose these young players before we even get a chance to see them play, there is another way to look at this. 

For a while, we as fans were bemoaning losing our best players for a pittance. Think of the fees we received for Mark Reynolds, Jamie Murphy and Paul Quinn. At that point, we were losing crucial first team players for fees that we're now receiving for guys who've never played a game for us (and I do know that you have to take inflation into account). This summer, looking at Hastie, McAlear and McKinstry, we're looking at bringing in north of £750k in transfer fees. That's for a guy who has played a dozen or so games for us and two youngsters with potential.  Prior to this summer, to bring in that kind of cash we'd be looking at selling a crucial first team player like Moult, Kipre or Johnson. Money isn't everything, I know, but transfer revenue is crucial to our survival and development. The fact that we can bring in that kind of cash without significantly weakening our first eleven is a positive. Could we have got more down the line for McAlear or McKinstry? Possibly, but they could equally have gone down the road of Ross Maclean, Dom Thomas, Ross Forbes or Robbie  Leitch. I imagine that we will see sell-ob benefits of McAlear and McKinstry deals further down the line should they develop well. If they don't though, we have done well to get fees on the basis of their potential...

[Yodo]

9 minutes ago, weeyin said:

Fraser Kerr, Dom Thomas, Craig Moore and Bob McHugh in a starting 11 would have you beelin'

Always hoped they players would come good for the club ,but the likes of Straker,Clay  to name a couple were never going to be players 

[Yodo]

4 minutes ago, MelvinBragg said:

While it's obviously frustrating to lose these young players before we even get a chance to see them play, there is another way to look at this. 

For a while, we as fans were bemoaning losing our best players for a pittance. Think of the fees we received for Mark Reynolds, Jamie Murphy and Paul Quinn. At that point, we were losing crucial first team players for fees that we're now receiving for guys who've never played a game for us (and I do know that you have to take inflation into account). This summer, looking at Hastie, McAlear and McKinstry, we're looking at bringing in north of £750k in transfer fees. That's for a guy who has played a dozen or so games for us and two youngsters with potential.  Prior to this summer, to bring in that kind of cash we'd be looking at selling a crucial first team player like Moult, Kipre or Johnson. Money isn't everything, I know, but transfer revenue is crucial to our survival and development. The fact that we can bring in that kind of cash without significantly weakening our first eleven is a positive. Could we have got more down the line for McAlear or McKinstry? Possibly, but they could equally have gone down the road of Ross Maclean, Dom Thomas, Ross Forbes or Robbie  Leitch. I imagine that we will see sell-ob benefits of McAlear and McKinstry deals further down the line should they develop well. If they don't though, we have done well to get fees on the basis of their potential...

Could always shut down the Academy and save us time and money 

[MelvinBragg]

6 minutes ago, Yodo said:

Could always shut down the Academy and save us time and money 

So shut down something that makes the club (a business, whether you like it or not) more money than it costs? While also providing players like Campbell, Turnbull, Maguire, Scott and Semple? 

You talk as if the academy has done nothing for us. The point I was trying to make is that the academy has allowed us to make the money to keep the club going, in this summer's case without weakening the first team greatly. But clearly that doesn't fit in with your agenda ...

[weeyin]

16 minutes ago, Yodo said:

Always hoped they players would come good for the club ,but the likes of Straker,Clay  to name a couple were never going to be players 

Of course there is a always a risk that a player will not work out - where they come from doesn't alter that fact.

The greatest managers with budgets in the hundreds of millions are deemed successful if 50% of their signings turn out well. 

Similalrly, if an academy produces one first team quaility player in a season, that is a high success rate.

We measure up well on both those stats the past couple of seasons, but we can't depend on producing an entire first team squad from our U20s. Our model means we need to bring in older players that we can also develop and move on for a fee. The fact we need to sign free (or low fee) transfers means it will always be a risk. They need to have potential to develop while, at the same time, not featuring in the plans of their current employer.  For every Kipré in that situation, there will be multiple Strakers. I think we've improved that ratio in the past couple of seasons.

[supermarv]

Are we actually arguing over a team who had what 7 youth players come through to the first team last year, could be more. Just because we have lost out on 2 who will make us plenty £££. Some nugget now saying we should shut the academy... One thing we don’t need to worry about at the moment is not producing any youth players our first team is full of them and it’s excellent to see. 

[MelvinBragg]

18 minutes ago, weeyin said:

Of course there is a always a risk that a player will not work out - where they come from doesn't alter that fact.

The greatest managers with budgets in the hundreds of millions are deemed successful if 50% of their signings turn out well. 

Similalrly, if an academy produces one first team quaility player in a season, that is a high success rate.

We measure up well on both those stats the past couple of seasons, but we can't depend on producing an entire first team squad from our U20s. Our model means we need to bring in older players that we can also develop and move on for a fee. The fact we need to sign free (or low fee) transfers means it will always be a risk. They need to have potential to develop while, at the same time, not featuring in the plans of their current employer.  For every Kipré in that situation, there will be multiple Strakers. I think we've improved that ratio in the past couple of seasons.

Agree with pretty much all of this. In the last few seasons, we've sold a guy we got as a trialist, a guy we got from Wrexham and a guy we got from Kidderminster for over £2m. That's before you consider Johnson's sell on. Add in the money Moult and Kipre helped make us by helping us get to cup finals, the money that Johnson helped us make (save?) by winning the playoffs, I think it helps pay for the 'mistakes'. And on that subject, the club does have a  knack of remedying the situation quickly if it's not working out. You didn't see the likes of Alex Fisher, Taylor-Sinckair, Jacob Blyth, Lee Lucas or Wes Fletcher hanging around picking up a wage for too long ...

[supermarv]

7 minutes ago, MelvinBragg said:

And on that subject, the club does have a  knack of remedying the situation quickly if it's not working out. You didn't see the likes of Alex Fisher, Taylor-Sinckair, Jacob Blyth, Lee Lucas or Wes Fletcher hanging around picking up a wage for too long ...

Lee Lucas was actually a good player anytime I watched him, probably should’ve been gave more of a chance when he wasn’t injured which was his main fault for not making it here. One game in particular stands out to me was when we beat Ross County at Fir Park 4-0 I think, he was outstanding. 

[steelboy]

10 minutes ago, MelvinBragg said:

You didn't see the likes of Alex Fisher, Taylor-Sinckair, Jacob Blyth, Lee Lucas or Wes Fletcher hanging around picking up a wage for too long ...

They get pay offs if they leave before their deals expire.

 

[steelboy]

3 minutes ago, supermarv said:

Lee Lucas was actually a good player anytime I watched him, probably should’ve been gave more of a chance when he wasn’t injured which was his main fault for not making it here. One game in particular stands out to me was when we beat Ross County at Fir Park 4-0 I think, he was outstanding. 

If you want to watch him strut his stuff again he is currently with Merthyr Town.

[weeyin]

5 minutes ago, steelboy said:

They get pay offs if they leave before their deals expire.

 

They do, but generally not the full whack. (And in the case of guys like ATS, their contract was just run to expiry).

[MelvinBragg]

8 minutes ago, weeyin said:

They do, but generally not the full whack. (And in the case of guys like ATS, their contract was just run to expiry).

Or like Fisher and Taylor-Sinclair, we find clubs to take them off our hands....

[Yodo]

16 minutes ago, supermarv said:

Lee Lucas was actually a good player anytime I watched him, probably should’ve been gave more of a chance when he wasn’t injured which was his main fault for not making it here. One game in particular stands out to me was when we beat Ross County at Fir Park 4-0 I think, he was outstanding. 

You just took that one a bit far