2019-20 League Cup

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, mfc said:

Said it on saturday and I'll say it again,our shape when we don't have possession is school boy stuff,wtf was tate doing getting sucked so far in for the first goal.our full backs are causing us nothing but bother and the front 3 are anonymous yet again.

Spot on sir. 

[grizzlyg]

Where do I start,  first of all our scouting system who have signed us 5 forward players with every one so far being brutal.   GrimshA was...grim.  dicky at left back doesn't work.  Polworth set pieces an embarrassment., Gillespie for penalty a joke but to be fair was excellent last season. Dunne as I have said before only gets  a game due to pace, distribution a joke.  Only highlight was the group of youngsters in Cooper stand singing the well songs 

[Welldaft Mk1]

Literally back in the door and where to start....

I almost wish we were pish pre season as it seems we are the polar opposite now the season has begun. 

Dont get me wrong this was the worst draw as a seeded team as per fkin usual.

I am a happy clappy but tonite we were woeful.  There was nothing in this side to get excited about. 

Defence and goalie pish poor, midfield little better and absolutely fuck all in an attacking sense. Apart from  that.....

We are in a relegation battle even this early in the season...depressing stuff, 

 

[fizoxy]

Apparently Gallagher played the game with a 40 degree temperature which, although not too clever, makes me like him more. 

[star sail]

3 hours ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

 

We are in a relegation battle even this early in the season...depressing stuff, 

 

I am not going to try and dress last nights performance up as anything more than poor but as always some perspective is needed. Firstly, it is only mid-August. The season has barely started. Secondly, Hearts were never going to be as poor as the pre-match hype suggested. Talk pre-match of Levein  being sacked if they lost says more about the circus that is Scottish Football than it does about the current standard of the Hearts team. Remember, this is the side that ran Celtic close in the Scottish Cup Final only a few months ago. Hearts are a top six side and we will do well to finish anywhere close to them this season.

The season so far has shown that our squad is better than a Championship side (Morton/ QoS) but poorer than a top six side (Hearts/ Celtic). In other words we are shaping up, at this very early stage to be a bottom six team. Where we end up in that group remains to be seen.

My views on the starting 11 have not changed since last week. The midfield 3 are good enough to survive in this league I believe. The comparisons between Vigurs and Polworth are valid. Given that Vigurs is playing in a Ross County side that many feel will survive this season, it will be interesting to see how the two match up when we play them (I was one of the fans of Vigurs when he was with us admittedly). Vigurs was a player, that when on form, I was happy to pay money to watch. Campbell has proved himself already (or should have amongst the Motherwell support) and Donnelly, I think will contribute plenty this season.

The big problem with our squad is the new wingers. I think it is fair to say that Hylton, Seedorf and Cole are a concern. They have contributed next to nothing in the last two games and in so doing have put the midfield three and the full backs under real pressure. I see Richard Tait coming in for some criticism but apart from the fact that he is playing on the wrong side of the pitch, he cannot be expected to make runs beyond a player he does not yet trust. His poor positional sense in recent games comes about because he is trying to second guess which way the ball will bounce as it bounces off of (Hylton/Seedorf/Cole). 

If Robinson has misjudged the ability of these players, we could indeed be in for a relegation battle but it is simply too early to tell. I remember going to ICT in the first game of the season under Baraclough and thinking that Louis Moult looked lightweight and that Wes Fletcher was going to be our main goalscorer for the season. Look how that turned out.

Last night was always going to be the first real test of how our season might pan out. A good playing surface against a team we should have aspirations to match if we want to improve on last season. Unfortunately the signs do not look great but it is still very early days.

[Kmac]

I have to ask again, does sloth actually exist?

we are crying out for presence in the middle of the park yet the one guy who may be able to provide it has all but vanished

[Claret&Amber]

2 hours ago, star sail said:

Richard Tait coming in for some criticism but apart from the fact that he is playing on the wrong side of the pitch, he cannot be expected to make runs beyond a player he does not yet trust. His poor positional sense in recent games comes about because he is trying to second guess which way the ball will bounce as it bounces off of (Hylton/Seedorf/Cole). 

This.  I didn’t think Tate was as terrible as some people have suggested.  Some of the flaws in his game in the first half were because he was covering the entire left side himself as Hylton was an empty shirt.  Hiding, not showing, not tracking back, not covering and pushed off the ball any time he did get on it. 

 

[supermarv]

I couldn’t make the game last night but by all means we were atrocious. As the same with every one I was very impressed with us in pre season. We beat some decent championship teams.

We’ve had a rough start since but something has to change. Last season we had a lot of success with Turnbull playing off the striker but we no longer play with that shape in the middle but at the time being we lack any real match winner.

Hylton looked to be a steal and very exciting to watch but maybe struggled to show that for a full 75-90 mins over the last 3 weeks, and I assume he was poor last night after being brought off. 

I seen the highlights and really wondering to myself WTF is Gillespie doing for the second penalty. His confidence seems totally shot since last week and hasn’t looked the same. I really like him but maybe a chance for Carson to stake a claim again. 

Accies next week, we know what we are going to get with them especially on a plastic pitch. I’d start the game with a bog standard 442. Have some pace from the wingers to beat a man in the wide areas and get in behind but work their socks off. Have Scott and Long to play off each other with one dropping in to help mark one of accies deeper midfielders if they have one. 

Gillespie/ Carson 

Tait Gallagher Dunne Carroll 

Hylton Donnelly Campbell Ilic 

Scott Long 

I’ve also liked the look of Cole so I’d say it’s worth it to give him a start over Long.

[Big Wispy Flossy]

38 minutes ago, Kmac said:

I have to ask again, does sloth actually exist?

we are crying out for presence in the middle of the park yet the one guy who may be able to provide it has all but vanished

Sloth has had a couple of injuries not quite sure why you keep asking 

[Kmac]

Just now, Big Wispy Flossy said:

Sloth has had a couple of injuries not quite sure why you keep asking 

I’m of course prodding a bit, but I can’t help feel it’s very odd that arguably our ‘biggest profile’ Sumer signing hasn’t really kicked a ball or been near the squad, yet we’ve had 0 updates. Let’s be brutally honest, the summer signings look largely guff, as suspected, rather than some miraculous gems, yet the one guy with even the faintest track record that we’ve brought in, is nowhere to be seen.

We badly need a striker and a central midfielder, but I can’t help feeling that the guy we need in the latter has disappeared.

[sinjy]

18 minutes ago, Claret&Amber said:

This.  I didn’t think Tate was as terrible as some people have suggested.  Some of the flaws in his game in the first half were because he was covering the entire left side himself as Hylton was an empty shirt.  Hiding, not showing, not tracking back, not covering and pushed off the ball any time he did get on it. 

 

Spot on.  Hylton stood and watched as the right  back ran up the park  and scored. Seedorf  and Hylton look way  out of their  depth. Our full backs will look bad if they get no help from those in front of them. I said before  that  giving Robinson  a new contract was premature and we should wait  and see how the new signings worked out.  Seedorf, Hylton, Ilic, Cole and Long look way off the standard required. Polworth looks a good player but disappears  for long spells.  Only Gallagher looks fit for purpose and who the hell is Casper Sloth. Is he actually  a slow moving  Ghost? 

What about our shys. Every one went back the way so that Dunne and Gallagher could pass it to each other then hoof it up the park.

Scott is not yet ready. He had one great  piece of skill but was bullied  by Berra.  Six months loan and maybe he will come back in January and save our season.

I am normally a happy  clapper but have rarely  been as scunnered and worried as I was after last  night.

[Yorkyred]

Well that was enjoyable. I night that would show how the season would pan out told us a hell of a lot. I think it’s all been said already but yep, a complete shambles of a performance. Hylton, Seedorf, Long, Cole really were awful, Gillespie suddenly seems a liability for some reason. Scott showed again why he should be nowhere near the first team at this point in his career, surely everyone can now see it. Ok Tait did not have his best game but take a look back at the highlights and see what support he had from Hylton, I had forgotten he was even on the park at one point, he was totally invisible, I would have taken him off after 20 minutes. Gillespie on the other side had Seedorf who was hardly any better.  We really were second best against a very ordinary Hearts side. Robinson says he takes responsibility for the new signings which of course he has to do, they looked wonderful against the lower league teams but look completely out of their depth at this level ( Gillespie and Polworth excluded). I’m very much a glass half full supporter but came away from that pretty demoralised.

[Lobey_Dosser]

Since watching him get put through his paces at QoS, my hunch with Sloth is that we won’t see him play for months. Robinson has a wee dig on the radio last night saying he has 5/6 players that either can’t get fit, adjust to pace of the game or cope with training. Sloth will be one on them. 

Regarding Tait, I like the guy but playing at left back is no excuse for constantly pulling out of 50/50s. From what I’ve seen, he was dreadful at right back against QoS and Livi. 

Couple of bright spots from last night - lovely play from Long for the goal last which follows on from a couple of bright moments early in the Celtic game. I l like his movement but he needs support. Secondly, another bad mistake from Gillespie, that’s him had significant lapses in concentration  in the last three games. The case for Carson strengthens. 

[Big Wispy Flossy]

I think it’s fair to say without any hesitation that we were absolutely shite last night. Marginally better in the second half than in the first but that wouldn’t be difficult. Where do I start?

Gillespie had barely made a mistake all of last season but has had 3 shaky games on the bounce now. I wouldn’t be averse to seeing Carson back next week if he’s fully fit and recovered. Harsh but if Carson can recover his form from his first season he’s too good to be sitting on our bench.

Grimshaw - wow - one of the worst performances I’ve seen from a Motherwell full back since the days of Tony straker (Richard Tait also in the running after last night). Think somebody said before he plays like a sensible soccer player running about until invariably someone gets their fingers stuck between the buttons and he kicks the hall out for a corner from the half way line.

tait. What the fuck has happened to him? You can moan all you like about him being played out of position but he still can’t defend  or get back in position and looks unfit.

dunne will get criticism for his distribution again. For what’s it worth he played a couple of cracking cross field passes last night. But it should have been left at that. No need to over egg it. Defensively just fine.

Gallagher was solid defensively and calm in possession. Looking an astute signing.

donnelly nowhere near the worst again but he’ll be the scapegoat any time we lose. Not the long term answer in that position won the ball back a few times and at least managed to get a shot on target unlike most of his colleagues. A few rogue passes as is the norm.

campbell seems to be escaping a lot of criticism but he’s not doing a lot right at the moment. Not winning the ball back and poor  in possession.

polworth looks like a championship version of David turnbull. I don’t want that to be derogatory as it wasn’t intended to be. He’s got ability for sure but the sum of the parts don’t add up. Smashing pass for the goal and one of the few likely to make things happen.

serdorf. A work in progress according to the manager. Not sure we have the coaching staff to turn him in to player good enough to be starting for us.

forgot Hilton was playing

scott. Unfair to judge him last night as he was starved of service. If we could get a number 9 in that was good with his back to goal I would like to see him spending s year in the championship as he would develop and probably smash the level.

the subs were a bit meh but at least long showed he could slot if given the chance.

all in all a forgetful night at fir park  

 

[ropy]

Looking back at the first penalty I think it is one, however in the build up it hits a Hearts hand in the exact same way, free kick Motherwell.

[Yodo]

35 minutes ago, supermarv said:

I couldn’t make the game last night but by all means we were atrocious. As the same with every one I was very impressed with us in pre season. We beat some decent championship teams.

We’ve had a rough start since but something has to change. Last season we had a lot of success with Turnbull playing off the striker but we no longer play with that shape in the middle but at the time being we lack any real match winner.

Hylton looked to be a steal and very exciting to watch but maybe struggled to show that for a full 75-90 mins over the last 3 weeks, and I assume he was poor last night after being brought off. 

I seen the highlights and really wondering to myself WTF is Gillespie doing for the second penalty. His confidence seems totally shot since last week and hasn’t looked the same. I really like him but maybe a chance for Carson to stake a claim again. 

Accies next week, we know what we are going to get with them especially on a plastic pitch. I’d start the game with a bog standard 442. Have some pace from the wingers to beat a man in the wide areas and get in behind but work their socks off. Have Scott and Long to play off each other with one dropping in to help mark one of accies deeper midfielders if they have one. 

Gillespie/ Carson 

Tait Gallagher Dunne Carroll 

Hylton Donnelly Campbell Ilic 

Scott Long 

I’ve also liked the look of Cole so I’d say it’s worth it to give him a start over Long.

What bit are you not understanding Hylton and Illic offer nothing and both were terrible at Livingstone on plastic but you want them in against a team that will give their all against us . We need strength in the middle of the park so because we have nobody else thanks to the managers signings Donnelly and Campbell get one more chance along with another 3 ? Have no idea who they are and as for playing 2 up front yer havin a laugh there is no stand out forward so any one of the donkeys will do but it seems Accies have signed some decent defenders so it will be tough for whoever plays up top . If we lose next week don't care if it's only 3 league games in then Robinsons position should be looked at his interview after the Hearts game was full of pish he sat and watched us come up well short of Celtic he even told us some players weren't fit but apart from Scott picks the same team .Better put yer cup final videos in a safe place Steve wasn't that a master stroke showing the players two cup finals that we lost badly aye Blarney Stone Kisser strikes again 

[David]

52 minutes ago, Big Wispy Flossy said:

Sloth has had a couple of injuries not quite sure why you keep asking 

Was he not away on compassionate leave as well?

[Benson]

15 hours ago, ohwulliewullie said:

Big game tonight... which I think is more important than simply getting through a round of the league cup, as it’ll kind of set the tone for the early part of the season.... and hopefully give us a lot of confidence going in to the next league games. 

If there’s one thing I hope to hear tonight, it’s, “you’re getting sacked in the morning!”

 

[DEWELL]

1 hour ago, sinjy said:

Spot on.  Hylton stood and watched as the right  back ran up the park  and scored. Seedorf  and Hylton look way  out of their  depth. Our full backs will look bad if they get no help from those in front of them. I said before  that  giving Robinson  a new contract was premature and we should wait  and see how the new signings worked out.  Seedorf, Hylton, Ilic, Cole and Long look way off the standard required. Polworth looks a good player but disappears  for long spells.  Only Gallagher looks fit for purpose and who the hell is Casper Sloth. Is he actually  a slow moving  Ghost? 

What about our shys. Every one went back the way so that Dunne and Gallagher could pass it to each other then hoof it up the park.

Scott is not yet ready. He had one great  piece of skill but was bullied  by Berra.  Six months loan and maybe he will come back in January and save our season.

I am normally a happy  clapper but have rarely  been as scunnered and worried as I was after last  night.

Totally agree with this is Craig Tanner also a ghost why is he not ready. Seedorf and Hylton can leave now. Illic is not going to do neither is Cole. Robinson has signed about 6 forwards who are all crap.

[Benson]

Poor poor performance. Apart from being shite,the biggest worry about that team is the lack of leadership, desire and resolve. The 2 wingers hylton, seedorf are a problem, imo we are playing with 9 men. They offer nothing and seedorf especially look weak. My granny could take the ball off him, shocking upper body strength. Illic doesn't look interested. A real naivety about this team and can see us taking some real gubbins away from home. At this stage in time I feel we need a change of formation and benching 1 or 2 of our wide men. The torrential rain that fell last night meant we needed men on the park unfortunately there were some posted missing. 

 

[supermarv]

43 minutes ago, Yodo said:

What bit are you not understanding Hylton and Illic offer nothing and both were terrible at Livingstone on plastic but you want them in against a team that will give their all against us . We need strength in the middle of the park so because we have nobody else thanks to the managers signings Donnelly and Campbell get one more chance along with another 3 ? Have no idea who they are and as for playing 2 up front yer havin a laugh there is no stand out forward so any one of the donkeys will do but it seems Accies have signed some decent defenders so it will be tough for whoever plays up top . If we lose next week don't care if it's only 3 league games in then Robinsons position should be looked at his interview after the Hearts game was full of pish he sat and watched us come up well short of Celtic he even told us some players weren't fit but apart from Scott picks the same team .Better put yer cup final videos in a safe place Steve wasn't that a master stroke showing the players two cup finals that we lost badly aye Blarney Stone Kisser strikes again 

Personally I’ve seen something that suggests Hylton and Ilic do have something to offer and in particular Hylton. Seedorf at the moment seems more to be better used as an impact player. Long has showed some promise for me as had Cole. I’d even attempt to start Hartley as Dunne couldn’t move on livi’s pitch. There is a lot of uncertainty at the moment and clear to see massive improvements are needed and definitely a signing or 2 this week. 

[Yodo]

Just now, supermarv said:

Personally I’ve seen something that suggests Hylton and Ilic do have something to offer and in particular Hylton. Seedorf at the moment seems more to be better used as an impact player. Long has showed some promise for me as had Cole. I’d even attempt to start Hartley as Dunne couldn’t move on livi’s pitch. There is a lot of uncertainty at the moment and clear to see massive improvements are needed and definitely a signing or 2 this week. 

Got to ask what do you see in Hylton and Illic both up till now have been rotten 

[Kmcalpin]

A very, very poor performance last night and we were beaten before we even took to the pitch.  Wrong team wrong tactics.  The players themselves made a bad situation worse as we all know. At the moment we simply can't afford to play with 2 wingers.  I just can't fathom out our team this season at all - no leadership, no direction, no character and no identity. Players playing out of position this early in the season, an odd mixture of player styles; I just don't get it.  Yes its early and new players do take time to gel but they weren't all new recruits last night.  We badly need a new number 9 and a defensive midfielder before the window slams shut.  Both 100% essential.

Last night we were toothless up front and although predictably Scott was isolated he looked out of his depth and really does need a spell out on loan.  The wingers were totally ineffective, as others have commented.  The central midfield was outfought and completely devoid of attacking ideas and in that regard felt sorry for Dunne as no-one was showing.  Polworth had a hand in 2 goals and although shows flashes of talent he does look like a Championship level David Turnbull. Donnelly is like a fish out of water in central midfield and Allan Campbell just isn't his usual self.  At the back, Gillespie was poor, especially his distribution, which put defenders under immediate pressure.  Both full backs were poor and when Hearts scored their goal I though Stevie Hammell was playing again.  In their defence, both full backs received no cover from the impotent wingers.  I thought Gallagher had a reasonable game and does seem like the best of summer acquisitions.  

As MFC said our shape and organisation when not in posssession, was very poor,but thats nothing new. We had no physicality either last night.  Hearts were no great shakes, but were worthy winners and hardly needed to move out of second gear.  We had loads of possession in the second half but failed to trouble the Hearts defence which strolled it.  Referee got a few major decisons wrong including the first penalty and letting their first goal stand.  he also got the flare up near the end totally wrong and Smith should have received a straight red. Given Carroll's summons by the Compliance Officer it will be very interesting indeed to see whether Smith's yellow card will be upgraded to a red.  A proper test for the system.        

[Benson]

7 minutes ago, Yodo said:

Got to ask what do you see in Hylton and Illic both up till now have been rotten 

Too early to judge players, can take players months to settle in, but 100 percent they need body strengting work and you wonder about there previous coaching. Real naivety about there understanding of the game

[couttsy]

Having had time to calm down a bit since last night and reflect on where we’re at after the first 3 games against teams at our level I think the goalkeeper and 1st choice defence will be fine this season, it clearly further forward where our issues lay.

Gillespie has had a tough start to the season with a couple of mistakes (not terrible mistakes right enough) but let’s not forget he make a couple of decent saves last night that people seem to be forgetting and was man of the match at Livi in my opinion, far to early to talk about dropping him, manager needs to show some loyalty.

Defence - Would be very surprised if a defence of Tait, Carroll, Gallagher and Dunne wasn’t good enough to keep us up. 

Midfield - Very concerning in my opinion, Campbell works hard and gets the ball but badly needs ball players alongside him to be effective. Polworth is a tough one, plays 3 or 4 nice passes a game but just doesn’t do enough in 90 mins. Donnelly is a trier but as I feared I just don’t think he’s good enough with the ball at his feet to play that position in our league. Sooner DT gets back the better, but unless Sloth is going to appear and be a presence in that midfield then we need a holding/passing midfield player. A big part of the reason we were watching Dunne shell passes over the midfields head last night was that none of them were good enough/confident enough to come and take it off him (in fairness to Polworth I think he did it once or twice last night)

Forwards - Again, very concerning. There’s a player in Scott, as we’ve seen on occasions already, however it’s too much to ask at his age to play up there on his own against the experience/aggressive central defenders (like Berra). Should be making appearances off the bench or going out on loan until Xmas in my opinion. With Long and Cole it’s maybe a little early to tell give their game time so far, however neither looks to be the answer if we are going to persist with one central striker. The 3 wide players, Hylton, Seedorf and Ilic the early signs are not great. Hylton was truly awful last night and the other two have offered little more during their time on the pitch, however they need to be given a little time to adjust to our league and their new surroundings. 

I think we need to tweak the formation for Accies Away, playing with two under performing wide players would be very risky...

I think we need a presence in midfield who can hold the ball and play passes, then make himself available again and build play and finally I think we need a strapping centre forward who can hold the ball up on his own and score goals. Can’t see us getting either on our budget but we can hope........