2019'20 Game 6: Ross County (H)

[El Grew]

Yes a really disappointing result but hey that's the 'Well way.  It has been like that forever. Onwards and upwards.

[Katie]

3 hours ago, CoF said:

As for the chopped off goal - a really harsh decision. Can only assume it's because Gallagher has his hand on the defenders shoulder however it's no worse than is allowed all over the pitch.

Especially in light of hearts’ goal last week where it appeared Gallagher had been fouled. As ever, it’s the inconsistency of such decisions that’s frustrating. 

[yosemite sam]

Somebody needs to show me what Seedorf and Hylton contributed to the game. The only winger we had with any input to the game was Scott. Seedorf was honking and Hylton never got into the game.

But why after scoring a super goal, did we then sit back and let Ross County into the game, I'll never know.

[Kmcalpin]

21 minutes ago, yosemite sam said:

Somebody needs to show me what Seedorf and Hylton contributed to the game.

Once again a well organised team doubled up on them - expect the same next Saturday too.  In fairness, a lot of the service they received from the defence or central midfield wasn't great - shelling long high balls at them or passing behind them. 

[livivoice]

As the disappointment of Saturday begins to ease I think there is a big learning point to take.

If Motherwell are to be taken seriously as a top 6 side ( moreso top 4) we have to see off a Ross County type team which for large parts of Saturday sat in and frustrated us. We can I feel expect a similar challenge when St Mirren visit next whereas as against the Perth Saints we may have a more comfortable match deploying a countering formation.

 

Just saying like.

[joewarkfanclub]

Really disappointing result from a game I never felt we were at risk of losing. Thought we played some reasonably decent patient football for the most part and it was very satisfying when we eventually got our goal from such a well worked move. (We do still need to stop these big diagonals from our centre halves though as they barely ever work.)

Re the substitutions, I agree with Andy P. The Polworth one is questionable as I felt he was having some influence on the game at that stage and we seemed to lose our shape at that point contributing to the first goal. Seedorf for Hylton is fair enough as he hadnt had a lot of impact on the game and Hylton has already shown he can be an impact player. Both will continue to frustrate and impress in equal measures going forward. Tait was a necessary substitution after the red card. The only surprise was it took so long to organise.

Although the ref did make a couple of poor calls, I didnt think his performance was the worst and we certainly contributed  as much to our own downfall as he did.

Re Cole. I thought the big man did reasonably well leading the line and showed some neat touches, particularly at the goal. However, I agree he doesnt really look much of a goal threat. Unfortunately players who can do both are at a premium.

Its clear we are still very much a work in progress and we will need to work hard to get more consistency into our results and perfomances.

[weeyin]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Really disappointing result from a game I never felt we were at risk of losing.

I was the exact opposite. The Accies, Hibs and to a large extent, Hearts games, I felt we bossed for the most part and created enough chances to score double the amount of goals we did.

On Saturday,  it felt like we were slightly lower tempo, and we weren't creating anything up top. First half in particular I lost count of the number of passes in the final third that ended up 20 yards in front of the intended target or drifted out the pitch.

The County keeper barely had a save to make. Compare that to last week when we were hitting the bar and the keeper was pulling out saves to keep the score respectable. I also felt the defence was a bit slack throughout the game and had been so used to attacking in recent games, were forgetting their defensive duties at times. County have some good players up front that need close attention.

When the decisions started going against us (disallowed goal and penalty decision) I had a feeling that it wasn't going to be our day. The first time I have felt that this season - outside the Celtic game which I wasn't expecting much from.

I don't think we were terrible - we just dropped below our recent standard. And as Robinson always likes to point out, in this league, if you drop your standards most teams are capable of taking advantage of it.

[dennyc]

We were never in danger of losing the game until Polworth was taken off. County equalised two minutes later and then  we were never in danger of winning it. Nothing to do with naivety as Robinson suggested. We manged to see out the three previous games no problem. Go figure. 

Barring injury, our Manager got the substitution badly wrong. But don't expect any sort of acknowledgement from him. Not one person seated near me  could understand why that change took place. We handed the initiative straight to County at a time when they were getting desperate.

[weeyin]

I thought Polworth went off because he was injured. Just a guess mind you, but he did take a thump in the first half in particular.

Regardless, Robinson is spot on when he pointed out the stupidity of taking a quick throw when we were trying to manage the game. We didn't make mistakes like that against Hearts.

[dennyc]

49 minutes ago, weeyin said:

I thought Polworth went off because he was injured. Just a guess mind you, but he did take a thump in the first half in particular.

Regardless, Robinson is spot on when he pointed out the stupidity of taking a quick throw when we were trying to manage the game. We didn't make mistakes like that against Hearts.

No mention of any injury in post match interview, or since. Not that that means anything as injury information is not really that forthcoming nowadays. He did take a robust tackle earlier in the game but that was quite a bit earlier and he appeared to have recovered from that. To the extent he was running the game and even chasing back to cover when required....like after we mucked up a corner.

Robinson highlighting the quick throw in was valid, but it also deflected from his own mistake. Not the first time he has slated players rather than admit a mistake of his own.

[grizzlyg]

Also noticed that every spfl game apart from us had a minutes applause or silence for Fernando Ricksen. Thought there would have been at least a minutes applause

[grizzlyg]

2 hours ago, dennyc said:

We were never in danger of losing the game until Polworth was taken off. County equalised two minutes later and then  we were never in danger of winning it. Nothing to do with naivety as Robinson suggested. We manged to see out the three previous games no problem. Go figure. 

Barring injury, our Manager got the substitution badly wrong. But don't expect any sort of acknowledgement from him. Not one person seated near me  could understand why that change took place. We handed the initiative straight to County at a time when they were getting desperate.

Robbo never takes the blame, is always the officials or players. Sorry Robbo but you got your substitutions wrong on saturday which did have an impact.

[fizoxy]

At the time I thought bringing on fresh legs and someone to shore up against a physical onslaught would be useful, and I wasn’t too fussed about the substitution, but it clearly backfired.

[texanwellfan]

Pleasantly surprising lack of OTT reactions. Perhaps realizing that  we are improving but still prone to lapses in concentration. I think that is the main difference between the likes  of Celtic and the rest of the teams.  Perfect example being Leicester City, they didn’t win EPL because they suddenly began to play like Barcelona, they became champions because they managed to cut out all of  the stupid run of the mill mistakes that average teams make week in and week out. Not an easy thing to do but how many more points would we have if we could eradicate our mistakes? 

[El Grew]

I'm not one for blaming referees when we lose but I have to say that the referee did get two of the big decisions in Saturday's game badly wrong. There was no infringement at Gallacher's goal and there was no contact between Carroll and the Ross County player to justify him receiving a second yellow card.

For me, the test of such decisions is always to ask "if either of the OF had been in our position, would the referee have made the same decisions?". Experience over a long number of years has shown that the answer to that question is "no".

Scotland does not have VAR and will never get VAR.  The reason given for this by those who run our game is, that we cannot afford it.  I do not accept that. I think the real reason is, that if it was introduced, the "edge/advantage" enjoyed by the OF clubs in refereeing decisions would be eliminated and that is not a desirable situation.

[Happy Dosser]

1 minute ago, El Grew said:

I'm not one for blaming referees when we lose but I have to say that the referee did get two of the big decisions in Saturday's game badly wrong. There was no infringement at Gallacher's goal and there was no contact between Carroll and the Ross County player to justify him receiving a second yellow card.

For me, the test of such decisions is always to ask "if either of the OF had been in our position, would the referee have made the same decisions?". Experience over a long number of years has shown that the answer to that question is "no".

Scotland does not have VAR and will never get VAR.  The reason given for this by those who run our game is, that we cannot afford it.  I do not accept that. I think the real reason is, that if it was introduced, the "edge/advantage" enjoyed by the OF clubs in refereeing decisions would be eliminated and that is not a desirable situation.

Your question is one I always employ when analysing such decisions, the best/worst example of which in recent seasons was the penalty given against Kipre in the LC final. We would never have been given that one in a million years. Conversely, had Moult been a Celtic player, the weak claim for a penalty he made in that match for being impeded in the box may well have been given by a referee like Thomson.

My thoughts on VAR are also as dark as yours. Our game is in a very poor state.

[weeyin]

2 hours ago, El Grew said:

Scotland does not have VAR and will never get VAR.  The reason given for this by those who run our game is, that we cannot afford it.  I do not accept that. I think the real reason is, that if it was introduced, the "edge/advantage" enjoyed by the OF clubs in refereeing decisions would be eliminated and that is not a desirable situation.

Have you been watching any of the EPL this season? VAR has not changed the decision on any of these kinds of incidents.

The referees (and these aren't refs who magically get better because they are sitting in a VAR booth) who review the decisions are set the standard that the on-field decision has to be "obviously wrong". They have been taking the stand that literally none of the decisions are obviously wrong and letting all the original decisions stand. Even when there have been blatant penalties and obvious violent conduct fouls, no action has been taken.

The only time VAR is changing things is during the mandatory review of a goal where sometimes they are being disallowed due to an offside or a foul in the build-up. And even those are controversial when they are tight. Partly because it's a human being rather than a computer that draws the line on the screen to assess offside decisions. So the decision can be different depending on who draws it and where. And partly because the resolution of the images means that you can't freeze at the exact moment the ball left the passer's foot.

The biggest issue, however, as I mentioned above is that it's the same pool of Football Association refs reviewing decisions that are refereeing games. So the same level of incompetence is applied.

[alanos]

26 minutes ago, weeyin said:

Have you been watching any of the EPL this season? VAR has not changed the decision on any of these kinds of incidents.

The referees (and these aren't refs who magically get better because they are sitting in a VAR booth) who review the decisions are set the standard that the on-field decision has to be "obviously wrong". They have been taking the stand that literally none of the decisions are obviously wrong and letting all the original decisions stand. Even when there have been blatant penalties and obvious violent conduct fouls, no action has been taken.

The only time VAR is changing things is during the mandatory review of a goal where sometimes they are being disallowed due to an offside or a foul in the build-up. And even those are controversial when they are tight. Partly because it's a human being rather than a computer that draws the line on the screen to assess offside decisions. So the decision can be different depending on who draws it and where. And partly because the resolution of the images means that you can't freeze at the exact moment the ball left the passer's foot.

The biggest issue, however, as I mentioned above is that it's the same pool of Football Association refs reviewing decisions that are refereeing games. So the same level of incompetence is applied.

I think VAR is a good then when employed sensibly. Down South, they have chosen to employ in the way you say, which to me is wrong.

The way VAR was used at the last World cup I thought on the whole was very good. A few contentious decisions, which were mainly down to opinions.

If the PL used VAR to it's full extent, you wouldn't have seen any of the moans and grumbles you currently get. Some of the decisions that have gone against Aston Vila have been shocking. 

[alanos]

2 hours ago, El Grew said:

I'm not one for blaming referees when we lose but I have to say that the referee did get two of the big decisions in Saturday's game badly wrong. There was no infringement at Gallacher's goal and there was no contact between Carroll and the Ross County player to justify him receiving a second yellow card.

For me, the test of such decisions is always to ask "if either of the OF had been in our position, would the referee have made the same decisions?". Experience over a long number of years has shown that the answer to that question is "no".

Scotland does not have VAR and will never get VAR.  The reason given for this by those who run our game is, that we cannot afford it.  I do not accept that. I think the real reason is, that if it was introduced, the "edge/advantage" enjoyed by the OF clubs in refereeing decisions would be eliminated and that is not a desirable situation.

I think  most non OF fans are now accepting that you need to write off X amount of points a season due to incompetent refereeing. These things happen and you just need to gt on with it. I get annoyed each time, but basically, no one in Scottish Football cares enough to stop this from happening again.

Scottish referees are so bad, the VAR machine would probably break... 

[steelboy]

1 hour ago, weeyin said:

 

The only time VAR is changing things is during the mandatory review of a goal where sometimes they are being disallowed due to an offside or a foul in the build-up. And even those are controversial when they are tight. Partly because it's a human being rather than a computer that draws the line on the screen to assess offside decisions. So the decision can be different depending on who draws it and where. And partly because the resolution of the images means that you can't freeze at the exact moment the ball left the passer's foot.

I don't trust the offside decisions at all. As you say it's impossible to determine exactly when the ball is struck and the cameras are at an angle which means the pictures aren't completely trustworthy. 

There are four variables of the ball being struck, attacker's position, defender's position and the camera position/angle. Yet they are treating it like a photo finish in sprinting with only one with no margin for error. 

[Goggles & Flippers]

On 9/23/2019 at 6:50 PM, grizzlyg said:

Also noticed that every spfl game apart from us had a minutes applause or silence for Fernando Ricksen. Thought there would have been at least a minutes applause

I have no issue that there wasn't, he had no association with our club, he wasn't Scottish so no affinity there and he hadn't achieved something momentus or stand out in the game as a whole. It is a horrible disease and I feel for him and his family but I think the club got this one right. Otherwise every weekend we'll have black armbands on for the tea lady at Aberdeen or Dempster's dug. I was critical of Calderwood for this comments in the aftermath of O'Donnell but the context and circumstances were different, he passed away on a pitch midway through a match, he was also not divisive. 

As for the game, it was an absolute non event until we scored, we are now known as a counter attacking team and opponents will try to stifle that. Morton did it in the early part of the season and Ross County did it here and in both cases we huffed and puffed (I can't speak for Livingston away as I wasn't there). The goal was well worked however we may have had more of a breakthrough if Seedorf follows a simple rule, "easy ball or beat a man and cross". All this trying to take it that little bit extra then by and large shooting caused our attacks to peter out. His goal against Hearts was a peach but I can't help but feel that he thinks he's too good to be playing at our level.

I would agree that diagonal balls from our centre backs is more wasteful than it is fruitful, especially when their furthest player forward when defending was 6-7 yards shy of the halfway line. Carroll seems to have stolen Dunne's, just keep getting sent off playbook as their early contributions after arriving are almost carbon copies. Stupidity in extreme. By all means take a yellow in a key area but not a nothing ball where there is no danger. Polworth's removal did make a difference and highlighted as it often did with Lasley, you don't give him credit when he's on but notice when he's not. That's because we don't recognise the donkey work as much as the flair.