2019'20 Game 10: Rangers (A)

[Kmcalpin]

A lot of heat but also some light on this thread after yesterday's defeat. Some valid points made.

I 100% get the budget argument - far more often than not the teams with the biggest budgets will prevail, but that doesn't mean to say smaller teams can't win now and again. Like Texanwellfan its the manner of defeat and loss of goals than get to me.  We played well at Ibrox up to a point, but then blew it. We made the same basic errors that we've been making for weeks be it against Aberdeen or St Johnstone. Blakey is right in that we sat far too deep in the second half thereby inviting Rangers on to us. Despite sitting deep we left numerous spaces in and around our penalty box. Yodo and Pepper make good points about our second half capitulation. is that down to inexperience of a young team?  Just how young are Hartley, Gillespie, Gallagher, and Tait for example? Others I get to a degree. Is it lack of fitness?  On more than a few occasions this season we've seen players knackered in the second half. By my reckoning we've conceded 6 league goals out of 15 in the last 15 minutes of games.

Anyway onwards and upwards.

[GrahamH]

11 hours ago, Lan_Lad said:

Seriously where do you get this drivel from? Just pull it out of thin air? Presumably so because they're actually desperate to hold on to him and why wouldn't they be. Who wouldn't want to keep a 30 goal a season striker who is the key to their Euro success.

Video primed to start at the key point. 
 

 

I’ve never seen a team so desperate to drum up interest in a player. That was some bidding war in the last transfer window wasn’t it? Surely you understand why they’re talking him up like that.

[texanwellfan]

7 hours ago, texanwellfan said:

I think it’s modern tactics. A lot of teams don’t put players on the posts. Not sure why since I see that same scenario week after week.  I am still a fan of putting your shorter guys on the posts

I also might add that another feature of the modern day game seems to be coaching goalies to not catch the damn ball.  So Gillespie’s error, in part, may be attributed to modern day coaching. 

[Lan_Lad]

2 hours ago, GrahamH said:

I’ve never seen a team so desperate to drum up interest in a player. That was some bidding war in the last transfer window wasn’t it? Surely you understand why they’re talking him up like that.

Everybody talks up their own players and in this case they don't need to 'drum up interest' his record is what's doing that. They're desperate to keep him because they're desperate to win the league then make it to the CL groups where the money on offer would put a Morelos fee in the shade and to do that he's vital because they wouldn't be able to replace him.

And how much more would it add on to the price tag if he became a proven CL scorer.  Believe me there is no desperation to sell him.

[sbcmfc]

We can compete with Rangers and Celtic in a one off game. As we’ve shown in the semi final win, or play off games.

We can’t or certainly have no right to compete with them over a season. It’s not just the quality of player they have, but the depth of squad.

They “bought” one of our best performers from last season, and punted him out on loan as he wasn’t even in their 23.

To he honest we have no right to compete with Aberdeen, but the gap isn’t as big, so if they don’t spend well and we do....

[Lan_Lad]

5 hours ago, sbcmfc said:

To he honest we have no right to compete with Aberdeen, but the gap isn’t as big, so if they don’t spend well and we do....

I think we can compete with Aberdeen since though they too have something of a financial advantage it's almost trivial in comparison to the advantage the  OF have.

Aberdeen are competing in pretty much the same market we and everybody else are and given we're up there with them I was surprised to see any Motherwell fan want them to beat the OF. We need anybody who can to take points from Aberdeen.

Aberdeen taking points from the OF would have no effect on them finishing top 2 but it could have an effect on 3rd and 4th spot.

And their fans too have a disconnect from reality. McInnes has given them their best string of league finishes in years yet they want him fired because he can't compete with the OF. Same meaningless stuff you see here. Shit the bed etc whatever that's supposed to mean. It baffles me what they imagine anyone else could do against that kind of financial superiority.

[Yorkyred]

1 hour ago, Lan_Lad said:

I think we can compete with Aberdeen since though they too have something of a financial advantage it's almost trivial in comparison to the advantage the  OF have.

Aberdeen are competing in pretty much the same market we and everybody else are and given we're up there with them I was surprised to see any Motherwell fan want them to beat the OF. We need anybody who can to take points from Aberdeen.

Aberdeen taking points from the OF would have no effect on them finishing top 2 but it could have an effect on 3rd and 4th spot.

And their fans too have a disconnect from reality. McInnes has given them their best string of league finishes in years yet they want him fired because he can't compete with the OF. Same meaningless stuff you see here. Shit the bed etc whatever that's supposed to mean. It baffles me what they imagine anyone else could do against that kind of financial superiority.

The problem I see on here at times that that some posters just don’t like Robinson and never will, they want him gone regardless. When St Johnstone were doing well and were a top six team  the talk was why could we not do that and their manager was some kind of genius. We are doing well and it’s a different reaction. It feels at times that some people are just looking at things to complain about, even making cup finals is not enough because we should not be losing to Celtic, I just don’t understand that mentality. All I’ve ever known as a short time supporter of the club is people wanting the manager out, Barraclough, McGee, and a minority Robinson. I’m honestly not sure if the club will ever be able to appoint anyone some would be happy with. It’s the nature of football fans that they like a moan and tend to think they know better. Managers never pick the correct first 11 and it seems all of them fail to have a plan B. Aberdeen fans are the same with McInnes, he will never win them over regardless of results. St Mirren fans did it with Danny Lennon. It’s been  a very good start to the season, let’s just enjoy it.

[Burn_Broomfield]

It was disappointing to lose to Rangers, but even more so to an abysmal Aberdeen.  Hopefully we can bounce back this week to avoid a slump.

For all the grandstanding from the Scottish press, Rangers aren't a particularly good side despite the mountains of cash thrown at them.  They are absolutely honking at the back and are more often than not bailed out by the super human heroics of McGregor.  The bonus they have is a player of Defoe's quality to call upon and to a lesser extent Morelos.  

What is fast becoming a major issue is our lack of goals and a real distinct lack of ruthlessness when attacking.  Passing up scores of chances every game has been a continuing theme of our season so far and it would be great to finally address it by giving someone a hefty scudding.  It's a problem plenty of teams in the Premiership would like to have, but it is problem that has to be solved nonetheless if we want to have a good season.

[sbcmfc]

3 minutes ago, Burn_Broomfield said:

What is fast becoming a major issue is our lack of goals and a real distinct lack of ruthlessness when attacking.  Passing up scores of chances every game has been a continuing theme of our season so far and it would be great to finally address it by giving someone a hefty scudding.  It's a problem plenty of teams in the Premiership would like to have, but it is problem that has to be solved nonetheless if we want to have a good season.

We had a couple of games like Hibs at home, where it could have cost us if they’d improved in the 2nd half. Fortunately they didn’t and we got the 2nd goal, but had wasted 2 or 3 chances to get a 2nd before half time.

[sbcmfc]

3 hours ago, Lan_Lad said:

I think we can compete with Aberdeen since though they too have something of a financial advantage it's almost trivial in comparison to the advantage the  OF have.

Aberdeen are competing in pretty much the same market we and everybody else are and given we're up there with them I was surprised to see any Motherwell fan want them to beat the OF. We need anybody who can to take points from Aberdeen.

Aberdeen taking points from the OF would have no effect on them finishing top 2 but it could have an effect on 3rd and 4th spot.

And their fans too have a disconnect from reality. McInnes has given them their best string of league finishes in years yet they want him fired because he can't compete with the OF. Same meaningless stuff you see here. Shit the bed etc whatever that's supposed to mean. It baffles me what they imagine anyone else could do against that kind of financial superiority.

We can only compete with Aberdeen if we make the best of our resources and they don’t make the best of theirs.

Yes, we’re shopping in the same market, but we’re watching the guy with the sticker gun hoping to pick up a bashed tin.

[texanwellfan]

3 hours ago, Burn_Broomfield said:

It was disappointing to lose to Rangers, but even more so to an abysmal Aberdeen.  Hopefully we can bounce back this week to avoid a slump.

For all the grandstanding from the Scottish press, Rangers aren't a particularly good side despite the mountains of cash thrown at them.  They are absolutely honking at the back and are more often than not bailed out by the super human heroics of McGregor.  The bonus they have is a player of Defoe's quality to call upon and to a lesser extent Morelos.  

What is fast becoming a major issue is our lack of goals and a real distinct lack of ruthlessness when attacking.  Passing up scores of chances every game has been a continuing theme of our season so far and it would be great to finally address it by giving someone a hefty scudding.  It's a problem plenty of teams in the Premiership would like to have, but it is problem that has to be solved nonetheless if we want to have a good season.

For all you say “ lack of goals” we are the top scoring side apart from rangers and Celtic ....but more goals are always good 

[Al B]

19 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

For all you say “ lack of goals” we are the top scoring side apart from rangers and Celtic 

Goals scored is a very superficial way of deciding whether your attacks are effective. By lack of goals he's obviously meaning our chances/goals conversion rate, which is absolutely shocking.

In isolation, Scoring 16 goals is great. However taking around 100 shots and only converting 16 of them, is terrible and as B_B says above, it suggests finishing and decision-making are areas that need addressing. It's an extremely inefficient way to play that you'll only get away with for so long.

[texanwellfan]

1 hour ago, Al B said:

Goals scored is a very superficial way of deciding whether your attacks are effective. By lack of goals he's obviously meaning our chances/goals conversion rate, which is absolutely shocking.

In isolation, Scoring 16 goals is great. However taking around 100 shots and only converting 16 of them, is terrible and as B_B says above, it suggests finishing and decision-making are areas that need addressing. It's an extremely inefficient way to play that you'll only get away with for so long.

Don’t disagree with your point but also in another way it’s not in isolation it’s in comparison to 9 other teams in the league. The more you shoot the more you score.  We had issues for a couple of seasons where we were only getting a limited number of chances and missing them. You can improve that by better Finishing or by upping the number of efforts on goal. Having said that, yes, how much better could we be if we did improve our conversion rate? No argument there and of course we can do both. Up the number of efforts and increase conversion rate !

[Lan_Lad]

Rangers had 19 shots in the game and scored only two while  overall in the league they have a GD of 22 to our 1. Motherwells shots to goals ratio isn't unusual. 

[steelboy]

3 hours ago, Al B said:

Goals scored is a very superficial way of deciding whether your attacks are effective. By lack of goals he's obviously meaning our chances/goals conversion rate, which is absolutely shocking.

In isolation, Scoring 16 goals is great. However taking around 100 shots and only converting 16 of them, is terrible and as B_B says above, it suggests finishing and decision-making are areas that need addressing. It's an extremely inefficient way to play that you'll only get away with for so long.

I just googled and the average conversion is 1 goal for 11 shots (9%).

16% is very good. 

[GrahamH]

21 hours ago, Lan_Lad said:

Everybody talks up their own players and in this case they don't need to 'drum up interest' his record is what's doing that. They're desperate to keep him because they're desperate to win the league then make it to the CL groups where the money on offer would put a Morelos fee in the shade and to do that he's vital because they wouldn't be able to replace him.

And how much more would it add on to the price tag if he became a proven CL scorer.  Believe me there is no desperation to sell him.

Exactly where is this interest that you mention? Is it the fabricated bid from China? Or maybe it was the bidding war we had in the last transfer window where there was a grand total of how many bids? They’re absolutely desperate to sell him.

[Al B]

4 hours ago, steelboy said:

I just googled and the average conversion is 1 goal for 11 shots (9%).

16% is very good. 

As soon as I saw you'd quoted me I was already braced for pedantry...

I'm sure you know I just picked the number 100 at random, as opposed to having actually counted chances. But then, given you actually googled it, perhaps not....

*Just by being at games you can see that our conversion rate from good chances is poor.

 

(*Pre-pedantry clarification - this isn't me trying to imply that you aren't at games).

[wunderwell]

I hope some players and maybe the management may pop their head on this forum from time to time, if they do please read!

Let me take as an e.g on this Allan Campbell, but applies to a number of our players on Saturday.

If you want to become a better player, watch the EPL.  When Rangers were attacking, how many times did we boot the ball clear aimlessly, just to clear the danger?

Allan, breaks down the play brilliantly, but needs to find the pass out of defence to unlock the strikers, who in turn are say 2 v 3 if you get the ball to them. Something we needed to do in the second half to worry Rangers.

In turn doing this, leads to the Long chance we had before Rangers scored.

NONE of our younger players will really do well at a higher stage unless they start to do these things that is indoctrined into players in the EPL.

Just my food for thought, having seen so many loose passes just to clear the danger. Take a pause, keep possession.

I understand, I'm no coach, and there are better equipped than me! Just something that seemed fairly obvious on Saturday.

Now I'm braced for who doesn't agree!

 

[Lan_Lad]

5 hours ago, GrahamH said:

Exactly where is this interest that you mention? Is it the fabricated bid from China? Or maybe it was the bidding war we had in the last transfer window where there was a grand total of how many bids? They’re absolutely desperate to sell him.

Exactly where? Exactly where where are you living because you have to be the only one around here who isn't aware of it.

Crystal Palace lining up £20m move for Rangers striker Alfredo Morelos – but Aston Villa also interested in January deal

Crystal Palace line up £20m Alfredo Morelos transfer as Rangers prepare for January battle

I could smother the page with such links but instead will now just ask where this story of desperation to sell their goal machine who has been instrumental in earning them £20 million in Europe the past two seasons is coming from. You saying it is evidence of nothing but you saying it.

[joewarkfanclub]

30 minutes ago, Lan_Lad said:

Exactly where? Exactly where where are you living because you have to be the only one around here who isn't aware of it.

Crystal Palace lining up £20m move for Rangers striker Alfredo Morelos – but Aston Villa also interested in January deal

Crystal Palace line up £20m Alfredo Morelos transfer as Rangers prepare for January battle

I could smother the page with such links but instead will now just ask where this story of desperation to sell their goal machine who has been instrumental in earning them £20 million in Europe the past two seasons is coming from. You saying it is evidence of nothing but you saying it.

I think Gerrard and the Rangers support will be desperate to keep your goal machine.

The board not so much. Balancing the books and the Ashley court case dictates that they would very much like to cash in on their most valuable asset.

[Lan_Lad]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I think Gerrard and the Rangers support will be desperate to keep your goal machine.

The board not so much. Balancing the books and the Ashley court case dictates that they would very much like to cash in on their most valuable asset.

He's not my goal machine though I wish he were and frankly who in Scotland wouldn't. What I have heard is that everyone including the board is more than keen to keep him because yes he's a valuable asset who can bring in mega millions but they want to win the league then make the CL groups where the money on offer would eclipse the price tag on Morelos. He's key to that ambition.

Their problem is that Morelos himself ultimately wants a move to the EPL so their issue is persuading him to stay when the offers do come along. He's contracted till 2023 so there is no urgency to cash in. If anything the price tag would only increase if they can get him CL experience.

[weeyin]

Based on his comments last season, I think Gerrard was more than ready to punt him on the basis he'd rather take some cash and invest in someone that could score AND was available for selection every week.

[Ya Bezzer!]

On 10/29/2019 at 6:53 AM, Yorkyred said:

The problem I see on here at times that that some posters just don’t like Robinson and never will, they want him gone regardless. When St Johnstone were doing well and were a top six team  the talk was why could we not do that and their manager was some kind of genius. We are doing well and it’s a different reaction. It feels at times that some people are just looking at things to complain about, even making cup finals is not enough because we should not be losing to Celtic, I just don’t understand that mentality. All I’ve ever known as a short time supporter of the club is people wanting the manager out, Barraclough, McGee, and a minority Robinson. I’m honestly not sure if the club will ever be able to appoint anyone some would be happy with. It’s the nature of football fans that they like a moan and tend to think they know better. Managers never pick the correct first 11 and it seems all of them fail to have a plan B. Aberdeen fans are the same with McInnes, he will never win them over regardless of results. St Mirren fans did it with Danny Lennon. It’s been  a very good start to the season, let’s just enjoy it.

Personally I'm completely ambivalent about Robinson and I'm not sure why anyone would be against him outside of him being ultimately responsible for results and performances. 

Also bringing up St. Johnstone is a bit silly.  Tommy Wright has a 40% win ratio over 300 matches.  He has four Top 6 finishes in 6 seasons, won a Scottish Cup and has had some decent European results.  And all at a club with the second lowest average attendance in the league.

Robinson hasn't achieved anything like what Tommy Wright has.  It's not even close.

[steelboy]

18 hours ago, Al B said:

As soon as I saw you'd quoted me I was already braced for pedantry...

I'm sure you know I just picked the number 100 at random, as opposed to having actually counted chances. But then, given you actually googled it, perhaps not....

*Just by being at games you can see that our conversion rate from good chances is poor.

I just checked because  I thought it was interesting.

The SPFL stats page says we have had 118 shots, 53 on target resulting in 16 goals. All three of which are third behind the Old Firm. Which is a goal every 7.3 shots or 13.5% conversion.

In comparison Kilmarnock have 9 goals from 95 shots, a goal every 10.5 shots or 9.4%  Aberdeen are 6.3,  Livi are 6.5, Ross County are 7.3 and somehow Accies are 5.5 which is the same as Celtic.

I do think you have a point about conversion though. If you look at our 16 goals we have 3 penalties, 3 from corners, 6 from inside the box in open play and 4 from long range. We haven't scored a single goal from a cross in open play so if we can improve that side of our game we will take a lot more points.

 

 

[GrahamH]

22 hours ago, Lan_Lad said:

Exactly where? Exactly where where are you living because you have to be the only one around here who isn't aware of it.

Crystal Palace lining up £20m move for Rangers striker Alfredo Morelos – but Aston Villa also interested in January deal

Crystal Palace line up £20m Alfredo Morelos transfer as Rangers prepare for January battle

I could smother the page with such links but instead will now just ask where this story of desperation to sell their goal machine who has been instrumental in earning them £20 million in Europe the past two seasons is coming from. You saying it is evidence of nothing but you saying it.

Lol, it’s going to be a bidding war like we had at the last transfer window. How many clubs were said to be interested? 10? 20? And a grand total of how many bids were there? You’re gullible enough to be one of them.