Stadium and training ground back on agenda

[joewarkfanclub]

Its amazing to think that the East Stand has been in place for 30 years now, which means it has been a stand for more of my life than it has been a terracing. How time flies!

Ive always worried that upgrading Fir Park would be a waste of money compared to moving to a new build, but when you actually think about the amount of time the last redevelopment has lasted,  it probably stacks up more favourably than you imagine. 

There is no doubt we would lose something if we moved away, so I think I maybe becoming more in favour of staying where we are if the POD can be redeveloped economically.

[Goggles & Flippers]

1 hour ago, steelboy said:

What do the TVs show?

Whatever it is you'd probably write in to complain like Mary Whitehouse.

Sounds like the improvements as substantial and potentially unavoidable. It's a shame if a move is in our future that those funds couldn't go into that. However it is far enough away in the future that it can't be considered presently.

The main issue we have with FP is the zoning. It is designated as recreational and MDC or NLC as it became wrote it in stone that the defined zoning (as of a certain date) couldn't be changed. There is means get about that but it would be time consuming and costly. But Donald Trump got a golf course on a nature reserve.

You'd maybe think a supermarket would be interested but it doesn't offer what Accies and Broomfield offered in terms of space around them and in Airdrie's case proximity to the existing town centre. Residential is probably the best bet to get approved.

[Kmcalpin]

7 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

Sounds like the improvements as substantial and potentially unavoidable. It's a shame if a move is in our future that those funds couldn't go into that. However it is far enough away in the future that it can't be considered presently.

The main issue we have with FP is the zoning. It is designated as recreational and MDC or NLC as it became wrote it in stone that the defined zoning (as of a certain date) couldn't be changed. There is means get about that but it would be time consuming and costly.

You'd maybe think a supermarket would be interested but it doesn't offer what Accies and Broomfield offered in terms of space around them and in Airdrie's case proximity to the existing town centre. Residential is probably the best bet to get approved.

Fair comment about a futre move which is my preference, other things being equal. Yes it is zoned for recreational use but that can be changed, ideally through the next iteration of the Local Development Plan.   I doubt that the Council would be overly concerned, providing that we had a replacement site in place  ie. Ravenscraig. Housing would be the best option for a new land use.

In reply to Joewarkfanclub surely the East Stand is way older than 30 years? I seem to remember it being in existence since the late 1950s, albeit with no seats.  

[Yorkyred]

Looking forward to seeing the work completed, it should make quite a difference.

[Goggles & Flippers]

32 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Fair comment about a futre move which is my preference, other things being equal. Yes it is zoned for recreational use but that can be changed, ideally through the next iteration of the Local Development Plan.   I doubt that the Council would be overly concerned, providing that we had a replacement site in place  ie. Ravenscraig. Housing would be the best option for a new land use.

In reply to Joewarkfanclub surely the East Stand is way older than 30 years? I seem to remember it being in existence since the late 1950s, albeit with no seats.  

I was led to believe that it was recreational and that was pretty much fixed because the council wanted a line drawn in the sand and not open to appeals and litigation and have degree of finality to decision making. I don't know enough about local government but you'd think they'd be all over a Ravenscraig move to add to the site as a marquee development.

I've just found this. It seems Brandon Parade is gonna get bulldozed. The tower in the middle of it and the Aquatec. However I'm reluctant to let a Labour led council spend our money as they managed to knock down a historic baths and replace with a white elephant that has lasted 30 years and put up a red metal tree that cost 10k back in the early 90's.

http://www.ironsidefarrar.com/nlc/motherwell-town-vision.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0CrCFSCC0HkJS64d6gBX4YhNfTlLN0EwPN4sl79kx1N2yEnyn-Y3w0QVc

[grizzlyg]

I am happy staying at FP,  I feel a move to a new stadium at ravenscraig would be bad,  no transport links whatsoever and local businesses near FP would suffer . I Also feel all new stadiums just look the exact same. Again that is just my opinion...COYW

[0Neils40yarder]

Maybe I'm a dinosaur but a move away from Fir Park gives me the absolute fear on a few different levels

[Thunderlips]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

I am happy staying at FP,  I feel a move to a new stadium at ravenscraig would be bad,  no transport links whatsoever and local businesses near FP would suffer . I Also feel all new stadiums just look the exact same. Again that is just my opinion...COYW

I agree. For all its faults Fir Park still has character which a lot of the newer stadiums lack. 

[Yorkyred]

I do get the very fair points regarding the cost to stay, both ongoing and developmental, but I really like Fir Park, moving out of the area would never be the same.

[Lobey_Dosser]

I couldn’t bear us relocating to Ravenscraig. Such a grim area. 

[Onthefringes]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

I am happy staying at FP,  I feel a move to a new stadium at ravenscraig would be bad,  no transport links whatsoever and local businesses near FP would suffer . I Also feel all new stadiums just look the exact same. Again that is just my opinion...COYW

For starters, Motherwell don’t exist to provide for local business. 

If it ever were to happen, it would be about embracing change. Can’t stop progress.

Any facility would align with improvements to any local plan up there at any rate. The biggest brownfield site in Europe at one point, would be home to a modern Motherwell Town Centre by now were it not for the financial collapse over a decade ago.

Any structure wouldn’t have to look the same as others either, rather dictated by finance & key stakeholders.

[Spiderpig]

2 minutes ago, Lobey_Dosser said:

I couldn’t bear us relocating to Ravenscraig. Such a grim area. 

Compared to other parts of Motherwell the craig site is positively exotic, a nice new  modern wholly enclosed stadium (see Almondvale) , good transport links, plenty of parking, etc would be great for the club, but given the current state of the economy, I can't see it happening  and I am not sure if there is a desire from the current  board  to relocate.

[Andy_P]

4 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Compared to other parts of Motherwell the craig site is positively exotic, a nice new  modern wholly enclosed stadium (see Almondvale) , good transport links, plenty of parking, etc would be great for the club, but given the current state of the economy, I can't see it happening  and I am not sure if there is a desire from the current  board  to relocate.

I don't know if the desire of the board comes into it.  Sooner or later it will most likely have to happen. 

Going over old ground here but we have a stand made of wood that costs more and more every year to ensure it gets a license for use.  Opposite that almost thirty years on from the point it had crush-barriers removed and seats bolted on to it, we're still sitting in a converted terracing.  We have a pitch that has required tens of thousands of pounds spent on it because of the make up of the sub-base not helped by plonking a massive stand up behind the goals which does nothing for natural sunlight hitting the pitch for growth and wind to aid the drying process.

Every year they edge closer to the tipping point where it becomes unmanageable and solving the issues with a new ground becomes increasingly desirable.

How they would pay for such a move is something entirely different of course!

 

[Yorkyred]

37 minutes ago, Onthefringes said:

For starters, Motherwell don’t exist to provide for local business. 

If it ever were to happen, it would be about embracing change. Can’t stop progress.

Any facility would align with improvements to any local plan up there at any rate. The biggest brownfield site in Europe at one point, would be home to a modern Motherwell Town Centre by now were it not for the financial collapse over a decade ago.

Any structure wouldn’t have to look the same as others either, rather dictated by finance & key stakeholders.

If and when it happens something like the Rotherham stadium would be nice, the right size with a good atmosphere, I suspect thought it would be closer to the St Mirren stadium.

[grizzlyg]

1 hour ago, Onthefringes said:

For starters, Motherwell don’t exist to provide for local business. 

If it ever were to happen, it would be about embracing change. Can’t stop progress.

Any facility would align with improvements to any local plan up there at any rate. The biggest brownfield site in Europe at one point, would be home to a modern Motherwell Town Centre by now were it not for the financial collapse over a decade ago.

Any structure wouldn’t have to look the same as others either, rather dictated by finance & key stakeholders.

Ok confession time,   my real name is Tim Horton!! Lol.    Fair do's pal, appreciate your view,  different from mine but all about opinions    COYW

[Kmcalpin]

6 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

I was led to believe that it was recreational and that was pretty much fixed because the council wanted a line drawn in the sand and not open to appeals and litigation and have degree of finality to decision making. I don't know enough about local government but you'd think they'd be all over a Ravenscraig move to add to the site as a marquee development.

If the process was carried out properly, the possibility of a successful appeal would be very unlikely and for a case to be taken to the Court of Session (on a legal technicality) in this sort of situation would be very costly; circa £60-70K I'd think, and unlikely to succeed. An application could be approved contrary to the Local Development Plan, although thats not easy but rezoning when the Plan is reviewed should be straightforward. You're right, in that the Council would be keen for the club to move to a marquee development on a large brownfield site, such as Ravenscraig.  In the case in which I was involved, the Planning authority was happy for the club concerned to sell its ground for retail uses providing that it identified and developed a feasible new site not far from the existing stadium.

[Goggles & Flippers]

6 hours ago, Onthefringes said:

Any facility would align with improvements to any local plan up there at any rate. The biggest brownfield site in Europe at one point, would be home to a modern Motherwell Town Centre by now were it not for the financial collapse over a decade ago.

Not fully true, yes the collapse in 2008/9 had a major factor but a lot of the delay happened before that, cynically and purposefully by those you'd maybe be surprised to hear about.

The access road that links Carfin and Flemington was completed about 2001. This was to kickstart the major development of the site. However over the water, South Lanarkshire Council liked the fact that so many people from North Lanarkshire visited its retail centres in Hamilton and EK. When you think of North Lanarkshire's shopping options its really only Cumbernauld and a handful of town centres all made up of pound shops, bookies, tanning salons and take aways. Glasgow and SLC have always benefited from the 340k who live in NL. They were concerned they would be a financial loss from business rates and revenues if Ravenscraig had a development to rival them. I'm guessing if you can attract a few impressive anchor stores, the space and free parking similar to the Fort would be attractive over Hamilton & EK's paid parking. However SLC couldn't be seen to throw a spanner in the works of a fellow Labour run council, so employed their mall owners (Norwich Union > CGNU > which become Aviva, I may be wrong here, it is 20 years ago) to do their bidding act as a proxy for them and lodge an issue.

They cited central government legislation that town centres has to be improved first over any new developments. In theory this makes sense, to ensure our towns retain their core but in practice NLC had no interest in Brandon Parade, they had a shiney new sandpit with an access road to play in. However the legal action did what it was designed to techniques like filing new documents or asking for adjournments to review, it kicked the ball into the long grass by delaying. If it cost them 200k in legal fees and in the intervening time they made 500k in additional revenues from NL based residents spending money in SL, then it was worth it.

The thing with this cynical technique is there will always be outside forces so quite often a year of two in the courts may snowball into 10 years behind where things were envisaged. In Ravenscraig's case it was the 2008/09 crash and belt tightening/austerity that came off the back of it and its probably 15 years behind. The meagre investment made by SLC via their proxy in the early 2000's has turned out to have paid off handsomely. 

If you'd said in 2001 that in 20 years time, you'd have a college, sports facility, budget hotel and pub and houses on 5% of the footprint you'd have been laughed at as being outrageously pessimistic. However that is the reality.

[Neilwell86]

12 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

If and when it happens something like the Rotherham stadium would be nice, the right size with a good atmosphere, I suspect thought it would be closer to the St Mirren stadium.

Going down the St mirren route doesn't fill anyone with Joy but did Burrows not say he would like to go down the Scandanavian route from our travels over there in Europe. Obviously money will be a major factor but at least there is aspirations to not go for bog standard basic package.

[Onthefringes]

7 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

Not fully true, yes the collapse in 2008/9 had a major factor but a lot of the delay happened before that, cynically and purposefully by those you'd maybe be surprised to hear about.

The access road that links Carfin and Flemington was completed about 2001. This was to kickstart the major development of the site. However over the water, South Lanarkshire Council liked the fact that so many people from North Lanarkshire visited its retail centres in Hamilton and EK. When you think of North Lanarkshire's shopping options its really only Cumbernauld and a handful of town centres all made up of pound shops, bookies, tanning salons and take aways. Glasgow and SLC have always benefited from the 340k who live in NL. They were concerned they would be a financial loss from business rates and revenues if Ravenscraig had a development to rival them. I'm guessing if you can attract a few impressive anchor stores, the space and free parking similar to the Fort would be attractive over Hamilton & EK's paid parking. However SLC couldn't be seen to throw a spanner in the works of a fellow Labour run council, so employed their mall owners (Norwich Union > CGNU > which become Aviva, I may be wrong here, it is 20 years ago) to do their bidding act as a proxy for them and lodge an issue.

They cited central government legislation that town centres has to be improved first over any new developments. In theory this makes sense, to ensure our towns retain their core but in practice NLC had no interest in Brandon Parade, they had a shiney new sandpit with an access road to play in. However the legal action did what it was designed to techniques like filing new documents or asking for adjournments to review, it kicked the ball into the long grass by delaying. If it cost them 200k in legal fees and in the intervening time they made 500k in additional revenues from NL based residents spending money in SL, then it was worth it.

The thing with this cynical technique is there will always be outside forces so quite often a year of two in the courts may snowball into 10 years behind where things were envisaged. In Ravenscraig's case it was the 2008/09 crash and belt tightening/austerity that came off the back of it and its probably 15 years behind. The meagre investment made by SLC via their proxy in the early 2000's has turned out to have paid off handsomely. 

If you'd said in 2001 that in 20 years time, you'd have a college, sports facility, budget hotel and pub and houses on 5% of the footprint you'd have been laughed at as being outrageously pessimistic. However that is the reality.

Barring a few details, that’s the sequence of events. Financial market collapse further compounded the problem.

I’ve posted before, early 2000’s I was invited to a series of meetings by our then client in regards the upgrade of the Wishaw deviation line to carry passenger services with station facilities a part of the long term Ravenscraig plan. This is the line to the East of the site from Wishaw Central to Holytown Junction, not the main line that passes North/South through Flemington.

The football club were represented alongside Bovis Lendlease, then one of the world’s largest project management & construction companies. Doubt it was ever documented, a figure of £9 million (there’s a few on here that will convert that into today’s money) was quoted as securing the land Fir Park resides with the sole intention to open up the future development of the Motherwell College site that was in its inception.

Local council were actively falling over themselves to have our club there as a major focal point. History tells us that commitment wouldn’t be on a similar scale as much the same as the current land value will differ given financial fluctuations.

[KirkySuperSub]

Unless it was going to be part of a larger retail park, akin to that behind Douglas Park - or whatever the fuck it is called these days! - then I really can't see a supermarket being interested in buying the land Fir Park is on purely due to it's location, with it effectively hiding away behind pre-existing residential accommodation, away from the main roads. That coupled with the substantial build up of traffic any such retail place would likely bring with vehicles trying to exit either onto a busy Airbles Road or an equally busy Windmillhill Street.

Of course, my opinion there could be complete shite and miles off the mark!

[StirlingDosser]

Whos to say that a supermarket is the best option? Given the rise in house prices in Motherwell recently (I looked last year, some of the prices were outrageous for a flat pack Taylor Wimpey effort), surely developing Fir Park as an upmarket housing estate is the better option? There is definitely demand. If the club had a hand in the sale of each plot it could work out better value surely. People may also be underestimating the size of FP's footprint. We have the astro area and the large amount of dead space between the South Stand and Dalzell Drive to factor in as well. Really we shouldve went at the same time as the college. 

 

There was talk of another access road going in from I presume the side of the Dalzell or thereabouts linking up with the access road for Motherwell College. (Almost wrote the new college but its been there 10 years now). If the club were in that zone the arguments about lack of accessibility don't sit as unless you live in the surrounding Fir Park streets your journey time isn't going to change all that significantly.

[Yorkyred]

2 hours ago, Neilwell86 said:

Going down the St mirren route doesn't fill anyone with Joy but did Burrows not say he would like to go down the Scandanavian route from our travels over there in Europe. Obviously money will be a major factor but at least there is aspirations to not go for bog standard basic package.

Think I do remember that, I only mention the New York stadium because it’s around 12000 capacity, steep  sided stands and looks great. But maybe above what we could afford.

[Pettywulliegrew-2]

2 hours ago, KirkySuperSub said:

Unless it was going to be part of a larger retail park, akin to that behind Douglas Park - or whatever the fuck it is called these days! - then I really can't see a supermarket being interested in buying the land Fir Park is on purely due to it's location, with it effectively hiding away behind pre-existing residential accommodation, away from the main roads. That coupled with the substantial build up of traffic any such retail place would likely bring with vehicles trying to exit either onto a busy Airbles Road or an equally busy Windmillhill Street.

Of course, my opinion there could be complete shite and miles off the mark!

Kirky NL council currently progressing with new route which will link Ravenscraig new town with M74 then M8, includes a massive roundabout at top of Airbles ,with South Dalzeil church,Evans Hallshaw , Cook and Indis ( old Halfords)all disappearing ,which would give quicker access to from FP

The project is being delivered in two parts

Ravenscraig Access Infrastructure (North)

Upgrading 3km of the A723 to provide a dual carriageway and shared footway/cycleway from the New Craig Road junction at Ravenscraig to the M8 at Holytown.

Ravenscraig Access Infrastructure (South)

Creating a new road link and pedestrian and cycle paths into Ravenscraig from Airbles Road, and continuing to the Regional Sports Facility.

It will include a new road crossing of the West Coast Main Line railway, as well as junction and carriageway improvements on Airbles Road at Hamilton Road (A723) and Windmillhill Street.

[KirkySuperSub]

Thanks, I had heard / read that prior, but the cynic in me wonders how legit it is / was.

I guess that all changes the picture dramatically if that does ever take shape, as suddenly a piece of land worth whatever, might be worth 2 or 3 times whatever.

Also, what timescales are we talking for this?

I mean, given the talk that the Ravenscraig site has already been sitting for 20 years (give or take) can we assume we'll be waiting another 20 years for this upgrade to come to fruition?

Don't suppose anyone knows on here, or if you yourself do Pw2, as it would be good know what the current 'guestimations' must be for these links to be made.

[Andy_P]

24 minutes ago, KirkySuperSub said:

Thanks, I had heard / read that prior, but the cynic in me wonders how legit it is / was.

I guess that all changes the picture dramatically if that does ever take shape, as suddenly a piece of land worth whatever, might be worth 2 or 3 times whatever.

Also, what timescales are we talking for this?

I mean, given the talk that the Ravenscraig site has already been sitting for 20 years (give or take) can we assume we'll be waiting another 20 years for this upgrade to come to fruition?

Don't suppose anyone knows on here, or if you yourself do Pw2, as it would be good know what the current 'guestimations' must be for these links to be made.

2025....ish

https://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/regeneration-and-investment/glasgow-city-region-city-deal/pan-lanarkshire-orbital-transport/improving-access-through-ravenscraig