Season 2020'21: Game 2 Dundee Utd (H)

[Ya Bezzer!]

2 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

such over reaction again today , its two games , two fuckin games ... start all this bollocks if its still the same end of September. We were 3rd last year and would anyone  like to tell us we didnt have two bad games last year.

I agree it's only two games BUT the whole 'finished third' thing needs to be put into context.  Firstly our form was in a serious dive when the season was curtailed prematurely by Covid.  Secondly since 2000 a third placed team has only lost more matches from 38 twice, than we did in 30 last term (which was 12 defeats) ie, we weren't even that great in, probably, the lowest quality top level season ever.

Also we've only won 1 match from our last 11 (from a pretty favourable fixture list BTW) so it's not just a problem that's suddenly appeared.

It's way, way too early for burning effigies but I do think that there have been consistent problems over a period of time that just haven't been addressed by the management team, the right back position for instance, and people are entitled to vent their frustrations. 

Robinson has plenty time to turn things around but ultimately this is a result driven business and if you don't win that's just how it is.

[steelboy]

Hartley had a great win/loss record last season.

Trying to cut the wages of Tait who has covered two positions for three years is the height of stupidity.

We still have a strong squad but it'll take some organization and some actual coaching of the front three to get results 

 

 

[star sail]

Interesting to read a few people putting a negative spin on a 3rd place finish. Like all statistics you can focus on any particular timeframe if you want to make a particular point, good or bad. Is it not the case that if you look at the season from Jan 1st 2019- Dec 31st 2019 we were second (or a very strong 3rd).

Looking at the here and now, it is a disappointing start. A week ago, I was very hopeful of taking six points from the first two games. This was based on the strength of the squad alone. Maybe we should have taken the pre season friendly form a little more seriously. Hindsight as always is a wonderful thing.

Some stats are difficult to hide from and the one win in eleven is not one I had picked up on. To put a positive spin on things, if that ten game stretch represents a temporary bad spell than we can still come out the other side (perhaps fortunately) with little lasting damage. 

I am confident that it will come good. We have the same squad that we had a week ago and I believe the manager is good enough to turn it round. 

[Shaka]

17 minutes ago, star sail said:

Interesting to read a few people putting a negative spin on a 3rd place finish. Like all statistics you can focus on any particular timeframe if you want to make a particular point, good or bad. Is it not the case that if you look at the season from Jan 1st 2019- Dec 31st 2019 we were second (or a very strong 3rd).

Looking at the here and now, it is a disappointing start. A week ago, I was very hopeful of taking six points from the first two games. This was based on the strength of the squad alone. Maybe we should have taken the pre season friendly form a little more seriously. Hindsight as always is a wonderful thing.

Some stats are difficult to hide from and the one win in eleven is not one I had picked up on. To put a positive spin on things, if that ten game stretch represents a temporary bad spell than we can still come out the other side (perhaps fortunately) with little lasting damage. 

I am confident that it will come good. We have the same squad that we had a week ago and I believe the manager is good enough to turn it round. 

The unfortunate thing is, any other manager (+ management team) in world football would be under serious pressure after 1 win in 11 matches. But Robbo is bulletproof and knows it, and when he does choose to go (because his pal will never sack him), Las will take the job from him so what incentive do they really have to change or improve things?  All they need to do is keep with the same old bollocks excuses and everything is rosy. 

Its no secret I am not a fan of Robbo, and Im not saying he should be getting sacked this week, but Burrows should be doing the proverbial Rab Douglas on him and be looking for answers, because the utter shite we are being served up is as embarrassing as the clubs attempt at ripping the fans off with cheapo attempts at "live streaming" matches

Robinson was backed to the hilt with his summer signings, they were nearly all brought in early and in the positions he wanted so there are no excuses for the team looking so unfit, disjointed and generally shambolic. And if he plays Tony Watt at left fucking wing again he needs a fucking slap! 

[Spit_It_Out]

We have been utter pish!I dont even think we look fit,honestly look like we are in the last few games of the season.Grimshaw sorry like his effort but runs about like a headless chicken for 99% of the time i think teams will get told to bombard our right,Turnbull on the left now Watt on the left whit the f--k is this all about.Wish we didn't bring Long just doesn't look arsed.

 

For some reason we look like we have no answers to any of the problems I know its early but its very very disappointing.

[grizzlyg]

 Very divided opinions which is expected.  From myself this is my view...1) calls for Hartley to be returned are nonsense,  he was obviously struggling last season and I dont recall many folk complaining after the st Mirren debacle.  2) Tait should have been kept,  he is a right back yet was kept out by a guy who isnt a right back and a left back who in my opinion isnt as good as people make him out to be (again only my opinion). 3) I am not calling for Robbo to go but I feel he thinks he us above criticism and also has moaned about no money and ignored youngsters yet still has money to sign players.  I would look at players we have signed in last 2 years and ask how many have made a difference.    Again folks you dont need to agree with me, that is only my opinion.    COYW

[Yorkyred]

18 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

 Very divided opinions which is expected.  From myself this is my view...1) calls for Hartley to be returned are nonsense,  he was obviously struggling last season and I dont recall many folk complaining after the st Mirren debacle.  2) Tait should have been kept,  he is a right back yet was kept out by a guy who isnt a right back and a left back who in my opinion isnt as good as people make him out to be (again only my opinion). 3) I am not calling for Robbo to go but I feel he thinks he us above criticism and also has moaned about no money and ignored youngsters yet still has money to sign players.  I would look at players we have signed in last 2 years and ask how many have made a difference.    Again folks you dont need to agree with me, that is only my opinion.    COYW

A few signed over the last 3 years or so that we’re not loans. I would say Gillespie, Carson, Carroll, Polworth, Donnelly, Aldred, Kipre, Gorrin, Dunn, Hartley.

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 hour ago, star sail said:

Interesting to read a few people putting a negative spin on a 3rd place finish.

It's not a negative spin.  It's putting into context.

Finishing 3rd was an achievement, no doubt.  But it isn't equal with our other high league position finishes.

Only a fool would say Robinson's 3rd place had equal status with, say, Tommy McLean's, for example, or, in my opinion, with any of our other 2nd or 3rd place finishes.  

Robinson deserves some praise for guiding us to being 'the best of the rest' but at the same time it must be accepted that the standard of the league last term was atrocious and that almost any other year our performances wouldn't have seen us finish where we did.  We need to look beyond just finishing 3rd like that fact alone encapsulated all that needed to be known about last season.

The two best things Robinson has done in his time at the club have been his League Cup run and the second half of the season 2018-19.  

[grizzlyg]

15 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

A few signed over the last 3 years or so that we’re not loans. I would say Gillespie, Carson, Carroll, Polworth, Donnelly, Aldred, Kipre, Gorrin, Dunn, Hartley.

Fair do's pal, I didnt say all signings bad. For all quoted who were good I will ssy he signed Frear.. Hylton...mazinga...ilic...mugabi.  end of day it's all about opinions 

[MelvinBragg]

37 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Fair do's pal, I didnt say all signings bad. For all quoted who were good I will ssy he signed Frear.. Hylton...mazinga...ilic...mugabi.  end of day it's all about opinions 

While you're right his track record in particular at signing attacking players is poor, McGhee signed Frear...

[grizzlyg]

14 minutes ago, MelvinBragg said:

While you're right his track record in particular at signing players is poor, McGhee signed Frear...

I stand corrected, sorry mate

[MelvinBragg]

9 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

I stand corrected, sorry mate

Your general point is right. Like I said, when it comes to attacking players I struggle to think of one good signing Robinson has made. Polworth as a creative midfielder is perhaps the best. A couple of good keepers, a few good centre backs and some decent defensive midfielders but when it comes to the creative side of the game, his record is generally quite poor. Attacking players that have done well in his time have been those he has inherited (Moult) or those that have come through the youth system (Turnbull and Scott). Doesn't reflect well...

[Great Balls of Shire]

2 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

Fair do's pal, I didnt say all signings bad. For all quoted who were good I will ssy he signed Frear.. Hylton...mazinga...ilic...mugabi.  end of day it's all about opinions 

He didn’t sign Frear..who wasn’t as bad as made out 

[FirParkCornerExile]

7 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

I’m going to hold back on the yearly “Robinson out” from the usual suspects. It’s a squad at least as strong as last  season, Tait could not get in the team and Hartley took pelters  from one or two who seem to suddenly think he’s now Mr wonderful. I predict will will again be nowhere near the bottom and those making the actual decisions will use common sense, not panic, and retain Robinson. Which will again be shown to have been the correct decision as it has been for the last three seasons.

Hartley was too far and slow , he would not add anything, Tait I grant you was a decent enough squad player but Tait often didnt get a start last season.  I remember Stuart Cosgrove saying on Off the ball after two games last year "the most over hyped award goes to Motherwell looks like they could struggle instead of the much predicted top six"

[Kat]

Whether it's a fitness issue or such we have historically always got off to a poor start under Robinson in the league campaign, thats four opening day losses, in three of those seasons we followed this up with another loss.

I'm sure we'll turn it around, I think the biggest disappointment so far was that the fixtures presented  seemed favourable and gave us the chance to build up some early momentum but it's been far from ideal. 

[Lobey_Dosser]

By and large, Hartley had a very good impact last season. IIRC, he really settled the team down when he first got a chance. As for Tait, I don’t really get the love, he’s looked done for a while and Grimshaw, who merits some of the recent criticism, comfortably kept him out the team. 

I’m not really sure what to make of our start to the season. I put Monday down to poor team selection but we didn’t see much of a reaction yesterday. Hopefully it’s just a case of getting up to speed but if so that’s frustrating as the opening fixtures were favourable. 

Personally, I’m a tad surprised we haven’t switched formation this season. Our 433 has been sussed out for a while and when we don’t have any natural fullbacks for now, it’s difficult to see it prosper. Also, the two ‘wingers’ are key to this formation and for over a year now, we’ve yet to be convinced who we can rely upon - the contribution of Hastie to date is concerning, he looks absolutely miles off it. 

Hopefully Campbell, Turnbull and Gallagher can take the team by the scruff of the neck and get us playing at a higher tempo with more purpose this week. 

[0Neils40yarder]

18 hours ago, Jumbomuir said:

Apparently not a 1st team player 

You're correct for once dumbo 

[Jumbomuir]

6 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

You're correct for once dumbo 

That's as good a comeback as our start to the season 

[Shaka]

1 hour ago, Lobey_Dosser said:

By and large, Hartley had a very good impact last season. IIRC, he really settled the team down when he first got a chance. As for Tait, I don’t really get the love, he’s looked done for a while and Grimshaw, who merits some of the recent criticism, comfortably kept him out the team. 

I’m not really sure what to make of our start to the season. I put Monday down to poor team selection but we didn’t see much of a reaction yesterday. Hopefully it’s just a case of getting up to speed but if so that’s frustrating as the opening fixtures were favourable. 

Personally, I’m a tad surprised we haven’t switched formation this season. Our 433 has been sussed out for a while and when we don’t have any natural fullbacks for now, it’s difficult to see it prosper. Also, the two ‘wingers’ are key to this formation and for over a year now, we’ve yet to be convinced who we can rely upon - the contribution of Hastie to date is concerning, he looks absolutely miles off it. 

Hopefully Campbell, Turnbull and Gallagher can take the team by the scruff of the neck and get us playing at a higher tempo with more purpose this week. 

The issue is, due to our poor recruitment, we actually cant do anything else other than 4-3-3. Campbell & Turnbull together in a midfield 4 would be overun & Turnbull would be completely nullified, we dont have enough even half decent Centre Backs for 3 at the back, and we have nobody in the squad at all who is capable of playing wing back. The other thing killing us is Robbos obsession with inverted wingers, it just doesnt work (unless you are an Aubameyang / Salah type) defenders show our wingers the outside and they are neutered. At least playing on the traditional side, Hastie & Seedorf have the pure pace to beat a man and send a ball in, even if crossing isnt great, they will both have several chances per match to hit a decent one!

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, Lobey_Dosser said:

By and large, Hartley had a very good impact last season. IIRC, he really settled the team down when he first got a chance. As for Tait, I don’t really get the love, he’s looked done for a while and Grimshaw, who merits some of the recent criticism, comfortably kept him out the team. 

I’m not really sure what to make of our start to the season. I put Monday down to poor team selection but we didn’t see much of a reaction yesterday. Hopefully it’s just a case of getting up to speed but if so that’s frustrating as the opening fixtures were favourable. 

Personally, I’m a tad surprised we haven’t switched formation this season. Our 433 has been sussed out for a while and when we don’t have any natural fullbacks for now, it’s difficult to see it prosper. Also, the two ‘wingers’ are key to this formation and for over a year now, we’ve yet to be convinced who we can rely upon - the contribution of Hastie to date is concerning, he looks absolutely miles off it. 

Hopefully Campbell, Turnbull and Gallagher can take the team by the scruff of the neck and get us playing at a higher tempo with more purpose this week. 

Hartley was poor last season as was Tait, and Grimshaw, faults and all, replaced him on merit.

We've got off to a poor start this season not helped by injuries. New players settling in - maybe. On paper we have a strong squad but that hasn't been translated to the pitch yet. Many keep on referring to our formation as a 4-3-3 but its not. More accurately its a 4-2-3-1 with a lone striker most usually Long, left a bit isolated. To play that formation well you have to have good link up play with the guys immediately behind but thats not happening. You also need to have specific skill sets, espcially in midfield. Long doesn't have the skills or physique to play in that role as others have said. I like him but not in that role. The wingers too aren't setting the heather on fire. The problem is that we don't know our best formation or line up.  David Turnbull will obviously take some time to recover his form.  There's a good quote from a post on FPC "As a deep playmaker is unlikely to work because we don't have the players around him for it do so. If he's not yet fit enough for him to play his proper game more dynamically we should either be asking him for just 45 minutes of it or leaving him out until he's actually ready." I think thats very true.

[Andy_P]

10 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

It's not a negative spin.  It's putting into context.

Finishing 3rd was an achievement, no doubt.  But it isn't equal with our other high league position finishes.

Only a fool would say Robinson's 3rd place had equal status with, say, Tommy McLean's, for example, or, in my opinion, with any of our other 2nd or 3rd place finishes.  

 

I don't  know about that.  You can surely attempt to put anything in whatever context you wish, but that doesn't necessarily mean a negative or positive viewpoint hasn't been applied to the context.

You mention Tommy McLean.  When was the last time you heard someone put that 93'94 third place finish in the context of Celtic being at their lowest ebb for about 40 years. Or that both Hibs and Hearts were having budget cuts because they were in the midst of ground reconstruction? Is that not putting that in context too?  It is, but it's just applying the context really negatively.

The same as someone dubious of Robinson might suggest that there is little worth attached to the achievement of finishing third in the table because that particular season they only happened to be marginally less bad than another nine teams what was a poor standard of league,  Just the  same as someone more supportive of Robinson may put a third place finish in the context of that team having the  second or third lowest budget in the league and achieving beyond the expectation level.

 

 

[Great Balls of Shire]

2 hours ago, Lobey_Dosser said:

By and large, Hartley had a very good impact last season. IIRC, he really settled the team down when he first got a chance. As for Tait, I don’t really get the love, he’s looked done for a while and Grimshaw, who merits some of the recent criticism, comfortably kept him out the team. 

I’m not really sure what to make of our start to the season. I put Monday down to poor team selection but we didn’t see much of a reaction yesterday. Hopefully it’s just a case of getting up to speed but if so that’s frustrating as the opening fixtures were favourable. 

Personally, I’m a tad surprised we haven’t switched formation this season. Our 433 has been sussed out for a while and when we don’t have any natural fullbacks for now, it’s difficult to see it prosper. Also, the two ‘wingers’ are key to this formation and for over a year now, we’ve yet to be convinced who we can rely upon - the contribution of Hastie to date is concerning, he looks absolutely miles off it. 

Hopefully Campbell, Turnbull and Gallagher can take the team by the scruff of the neck and get us playing at a higher tempo with more purpose this week. 

Hartley and Tait were great in their day for us but their absence is being used as an excuse for poor start....players always become better in their absence. 

 Calum Lang looked good and am sure he’ll be an asset, soft sending off has scuppered us there too. Long has assets but isn’t clinical enough and for me takes too many touches.

Getting things in perspective we should have beaten Ross Co, yesterday we looked short of ideas to be fair, but if we had 4 points out of 6 , it wouldn’t be undeserved.

[Yorkyred]

6 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Hartley was too far and slow , he would not add anything, Tait I grant you was a decent enough squad player but Tait often didnt get a start last season.  I remember Stuart Cosgrove saying on Off the ball after two games last year "the most over hyped award goes to Motherwell looks like they could struggle instead of the much predicted top six"

I think at times the minute a player leaves us he seems to talked up. The amount of stick that Hartley and Tait took for been to slow, past it, agricultural and suddenly they should have been retained. Tait was actually offered an improved contract and turned it down. The club took pelters for not offering Hastie a new contract after half a dozen good displays and chose to see if it was just a flash in the pan, the sensible approach for a club on a limited budget. He’s now back and after two games taking stick, the club don’t look so daft now. I just find the lack of patience amazing at times, the grass is rarely if ever greener on the other side. We finished third last season and that’s now played down as only happening because everyone else was so poor, surely in that case every other manager should be at risk ? Just about every club will have a poor run of form and without doubt we are on a bad run which started towards the end of last season but just give it time to turn around, it will as it always has under Robinson. He’s made mistakes in the past and will in the future but overall he’s done a very decent job.

[wellwell91]

19 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

I think at times the minute a player leaves us he seems to talked up. The amount of stick that Hartley and Tait took for been to slow, past it, agricultural and suddenly they should have been retained. Tait was actually offered an improved contract and turned it down. The club took pelters for not offering Hastie a new contract after half a dozen good displays and chose to see if it was just a flash in the pan, the sensible approach for a club on a limited budget. He’s now back and after two games taking stick, the club don’t look so daft now. I just find the lack of patience amazing at times, the grass is rarely if ever greener on the other side. We finished third last season and that’s now played down as only happening because everyone else was so poor, surely in that case every other manager should be at risk ? Just about every club will have a poor run of form and without doubt we are on a bad run which started towards the end of last season but just give it time to turn around, it will as it always has under Robinson. He’s made mistakes in the past and will in the future but overall he’s done a very decent job.

Agree with most of what you are saying but to me he does not seem to learn from his mistakes and is very slow to adapt to righting them or he’s just stubborn 

Grimmy as much as I like the guy and he must be great to have around the squad is not a right back ( played a part in the goal by being the wrong side of Reynolds )

This playing wingers on the wrong side then changing it with on either Long/Watt going on to the wing

Playing Long as a lone striker when everyone and their granny know he cannot play that role

We have so many players I don’t think he knows his best eleven and this has been compounded ( not all his fault due to current circumstances) by playing players for 45 minutes during pre season. Not saying it was right but The Rangers played the same team in just about all their games with most players playing 70 - 80 mins while we chopped and changed all over the place.

 

 

[joewarkfanclub]

I thought first half we looked ok. Shape was better and we controlled the play much like we did 2nd half against Ross County.  The disappointing thing is that we didnt create any clear cut chances and it seems we are entirely too predictible playing against teams that sit in and play us on the break.  We really need to find a formation and a way of playing to counter that. With the pace we have in the team, maybe we should be inviting teams onto us to leave more space for the likes of Hastie, Seedorf and Long to exploit? 

2nd half we became increasingly frustrated and none of the changes made by the manager seemed to improve things. Like others, I thought Watt for Hastie seemed a very strange thing to do without apparently changing formation. Hylton was the obvious choice for a straight swap, which was proved correct when he actually came on and Watt moved inside to support White, who despite his critics at least seems to engage opposition defenders and make them work a little harder.

Desperately disappointing result, not helped by the injuries illness and suspension. But we need to find a settled formation that works soon before confidence starts to erode and effect performances further. 

With no actual full backs available for the forseeable, it might be worth just playing 3-5-2 until we have a full complinent to choose from.

It would allow Grimmy some respite by allowing him to play further up the park a little, get Hastie over on his natural side, allow us to retain 3 in centre midfield and give long a partner up front.

Maybe not a long term solution, but in the interim could be the way to go.

Carson

Maguire Gallagher Lamie

Grimmy OHara Turnbull Campbell Hastie

Long White/Watt