Fans back into stadiums

[joewarkfanclub]

Its quite basic human rights folks. People shouldnt be forced into something they object to on moral or medical grounds, simply because their government has decided that they should.  I get that its being promoted as for the greater good, but where is the evidence that it is necessary or will work?

What next? You cant go on holiday without a vaccine passport?

It will create division and  a 2 tier society. None of which is good for the public or democracy.

Im double vaccinated and more than happy to take advantage of my status, but that doesnt mean I think others should have their freedoms curtailed because they have taken different decisions than me on their own personal health.

PS. This IS clearly political, but it impacts on our ability to support the club we all love. As long as that is done in a respectful way, theres no reason we shouldnt be discussing it.

[ohwulliewullie]

I downloaded my vaccine certificate this morning, which in fact includes 2 x QR codes (one for first dose and one for second). It might be a moot point for MFC (due to the 10,000 attendance question)… but in terms of the practicalities of checking them, it probably doesn’t need any investment in technology. 

The letter includes your name and address, and clearly states first dose + second dose. So it could be as simple as someone doing a visual check on the vaccine doc (which I now have on my phone), then checking that I am who I say I am (say from my driving licence or whatever). It could be done in seconds for each person (if they come prepared) but it obviously takes extra time and resource versus what happens today. There would need to be exception processes for people without (say) a smart phone or photo ID, plus those ineligible or unsuitable for vaccination… and no doubt it would be a barrier for some to attend matches. But it could probably be implemented fairly quickly and easily, without extra kit. 

The ethics of this is a different question… but the sooner we learn to adapt and live with Covid (accepting some relatively minor inconveniences for the benefit of a normal life) the better, as far as I’m concerned. 
 

 

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Its quite basic human rights folks. People shouldnt be forced into something they object to on moral or medical grounds, simply because their government has decided that they should.  I get that its being promoted as for the greater good, but where is the evidence that it is necessary or will work?

What next? You cant go on holiday without a vaccine passport?

It will create division and  a 2 tier society. None of which is good for the public or democracy.

Im double vaccinated and more than happy to take advantage of my status, but that doesnt mean I think others should have their freedoms curtailed because they have taken different decisions than me on their own personal health.

PS. This IS clearly political, but it impacts on our ability to support the club we all love. As long as that is done in a respectful way, theres no reason we shouldnt be discussing it.

It's feck all to do with politics  its main purpose is to encourage people who have not yet done so i. e. the younger age groups who just happen to be the people spreading the virus now to get vaccinated. 

It's a public health initiative ffs to try to help control and stop the spread of a virus that kills people, so if that means me spending 30 seconds extra going into Fir Park to show proof of vaccination then so be it, it's not a lot to ask.

No doubt all the anti vaxers, conspiracy theorists, David Icke fans and general fuckwits in society will be up in arms about it, but its about saving peoples lives and learning to live with the virus as it's here to stay, so we need to deal with it.

 

 

[weeyin]

2 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Its quite basic human rights folks. People shouldnt be forced into something they object to on moral or medical grounds, simply because their government has decided that they should.  I get that its being promoted as for the greater good, but where is the evidence that it is necessary or will work?

Nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated.

It's not a basic human right to get entry into a football match any more than it's a basic human right to smoke inside the ground or a basic human right to drive to Fir Park if you don't have a licence.

It is a basic human right to not have people put your health at risk because of their personal choices. 

It is a scientific fact that people choosing not to get vaccinated are prolonging the spread of the virus, increasing the chances of mutation and extending the need for all the protocols we all have to deal with.

There is plenty of law that surrounds human rights that goes back centuries. They all say basically the same thing:

"Liberty is the power to do everything that does not interfere with the rights of others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of every individual has no limits save those that assure to other members of society the enjoyment of the same rights.”

tl;dr "Your rights end where mine begin"

[Yodo]

See it's alright sitting in yer ivory tower in the "land of the free" and commenting on something that really doesnt concern you now 

[Electric Blues]

7 minutes ago, Yodo said:

See it's alright sitting in yer ivory tower in the "land of the free" and commenting on something that really doesnt concern you now 

Away and give "yer" head a wobble.

[Spiderpig]

8 minutes ago, Yodo said:

See it's alright sitting in yer ivory tower in the "land of the free" and commenting on something that really doesnt concern you now 

Try and stop talking shite for a wee while you might just enjoy it, I know everyone else will

[Yodo]

18 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Try and stop talking shite for a wee while you might just enjoy it, I know everyone else will

 Only if u will 

[GazzyB]

1 hour ago, Yodo said:

See it's alright sitting in yer ivory tower in the "land of the free" and commenting on something that really doesnt concern you now 

Are you an anti vaxxer? Shockafuckinrooney if so.

[Stevens]

5 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Its quite basic human rights folks. People shouldnt be forced into something they object to on moral or medical grounds, simply because their government has decided that they should.  I get that its being promoted as for the greater good, but where is the evidence that it is necessary or will work?

It’s in literally every single clinical trial they’ve done for the vaccine

[wellwell91]

1 hour ago, Yodo said:

See it's alright sitting in yer ivory tower in the "land of the free" and commenting on something that really doesnt concern you now 

One word … … Arsehole (ok maybe two)

[CoF]

13 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

I agree we won't break 10K. It's rare we ever do these days. 

I was thinking the same, it's been years since I recall an attendance above 10k. However, with over 5k season ticket holders this season, an increase in attendances across the league, and (some) of the city clubs doing well so far it doesn't seem so unlikely all of a sudden. I know the home pay-at-the-gate punters will likely now be part of the season tickets now, and we'll get the usual reduction in home fans when rangers and Celtic come, but the south stand, which houses 4856, will likely sell out a few times this season. I think it's more than likely than not the club will need to consider their options. 

I'd guess that the hassle of passports isn't likely to offset the benefit of scraping past 10k so I imagine the club will cap ticket numbers to avoid that. 

[Yabba's Turd]

11 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

 

Im double vaccinated and more than happy to take advantage of my status, but that doesnt mean I think others should have their freedoms curtailed because they have taken different decisions than me on their own personal health.

PS. This IS clearly political, but it impacts on our ability to support the club we all love. As long as that is done in a respectful way, theres no reason we shouldnt be discussing it.

I'm sure both of my mates who passed away would have a different outlook on personal decisions to vaccinate.  Always baffles me that putting others at risk is seen as a personal choice.

[joewarkfanclub]

23 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

It's feck all to do with politics  its main purpose is to encourage people who have not yet done so i. e. the younger age groups who just happen to be the people spreading the virus now to get vaccinated. 

It's a public health initiative ffs to try to help control and stop the spread of a virus that kills people, so if that means me spending 30 seconds extra going into Fir Park to show proof of vaccination then so be it, it's not a lot to ask.

No doubt all the anti vaxers, conspiracy theorists, David Icke fans and general fuckwits in society will be up in arms about it, but its about saving peoples lives and learning to live with the virus as it's here to stay, so we need to deal with it.

 

 

I was talking about posting this on a football forum, not the decision to introduce vaccine passports in general. Early posters commented about leaving politics off of here as it isnt the place. All I was doing was saying that it is relevant and should be discussed. 

[joewarkfanclub]

19 hours ago, Stevens said:

It’s in literally every single clinical trial they’ve done for the vaccine

How do vaccine passports figure in clinical trials?

How does being double vaccinated make you safer to be around?

We are told the vaccine doesnt stop you gettingthe virus. We are told the vaccine doesnt stop you spreading the virus to others, so Im not sure what a vaccine passport brings to the table?

I dont think its an unreasonable question to ask.

We are told the vaccine ensures you dont get as ill, dont die and dont end up in hospital. Thats the reason I got It. So Im certainly not an anti vaxxer David Icke nutjob as is being alluded to above.

[joewarkfanclub]

14 hours ago, Yabba's Turd said:

I'm sure both of my mates who passed away would have a different outlook on personal decisions to vaccinate.  Always baffles me that putting others at risk is seen as a personal choice.

Please see my subsequent posts.

[C&A not the shop]

On 9/3/2021 at 9:47 AM, Busta Nut said:

I agree we won't break 10K. It's rare we ever do these days. 

I am not sure the authorities will accept that thought if the potential capacity is nearly 14K.  Sure we can limit the capacity but that means ticketing all the games regardless of opponents.

Thats an interesting one, would it really come to ticketing/forbidding PATG  or would they be allowed a sensible risk assessment/projection.  Same way we don't need as many police for a game vs Dundee/County/St Johnstone etc. Could we make an exception for these not being all ticket as the odds of breaking 10k are so long?

[Great Balls of Shire]

On 9/3/2021 at 1:23 PM, joewarkfanclub said:

Its quite basic human rights folks. People shouldnt be forced into something they object to on moral or medical grounds, simply because their government has decided that they should.  I get that its being promoted as for the greater good, but where is the evidence that it is necessary or will work?

What next? You cant go on holiday without a vaccine passport?

It will create division and  a 2 tier society. None of which is good for the public or democracy.

Im double vaccinated and more than happy to take advantage of my status, but that doesnt mean I think others should have their freedoms curtailed because they have taken different decisions than me on their own personal health.

PS. This IS clearly political, but it impacts on our ability to support the club we all love. As long as that is done in a respectful way, theres no reason we shouldnt be discussing it.

Nobody is being forced into it, they've still got choice , it's just there may be certain things they cant fo....I think the rising cases and the less fatalities,  serious illness is evidence vaccine works.

[weeyin]

If you want to see how good vaccinations are just check when the last case of smallpox was recorded.

[GrahamH]

2 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

How do vaccine passports figure in clinical trials?

How does being double vaccinated make you safer to be around?

We are told the vaccine doesnt stop you gettingthe virus. We are told the vaccine doesnt stop you spreading the virus to others, so Im not sure what a vaccine passport brings to the table?

I dont think its an unreasonable question to ask.

We are told the vaccine ensures you dont get as ill, dont die and dont end up in hospital. Thats the reason I got It. So Im certainly not an anti vaxxer David Icke nutjob as is being alluded to above.

The vaccine doesn’t guarantee you won’t catch Covid but studies have shown double vaccinated people are 3 times less likely to get it. Also, the vaccinated will potentially be less likely to pass it on due to having a smaller viral load therefor shedding less of the virus.

[Kmcalpin]

40 minutes ago, GrahamH said:

The vaccine doesn’t guarantee you won’t catch Covid but studies have shown double vaccinated people are 3 times less likely to get it. Also, the vaccinated will potentially be less likely to pass it on due to having a smaller viral load therefor shedding less of the virus.

Exactly. The more people who are double vaccinated the better as this cuts down, but not eliminates, the chance of variants developing.

[joewarkfanclub]

17 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Nobody is being forced into it, they've still got choice , it's just there may be certain things they cant fo....I think the rising cases and the less fatalities,  serious illness is evidence vaccine works.

I never argued the vaccine doesnt work.

Im asking what the vaccine passport adds.

Why is it necessary to prohibit non vaccinated people from large events? Surely any risk lies with them being not vaccinated, as is their choice. 

[joewarkfanclub]

17 hours ago, weeyin said:

If you want to see how good vaccinations are just check when the last case of smallpox was recorded.

How many smallpox passports are there in the world?

[numpty]

27 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

How many smallpox passports are there in the world?

None now for obvious reasons, but they were certainly a thing at the time.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/10/vaccination-passports-are-nothing-new-and-the-sooner-we-have-them-the-better

https://www.history.com/news/vaccine-passports-smallpox-scar

[dennyc]

On 9/5/2021 at 10:04 AM, joewarkfanclub said:

I never argued the vaccine doesnt work.

Im asking what the vaccine passport adds.

Why is it necessary to prohibit non vaccinated people from large events? Surely any risk lies with them being not vaccinated, as is their choice. 

Non vaccinated are far more likely to catch the virus and pass it on. Non vaccinated are more likely to become seriously ill or die when they get the virus. I think everybody can agree on that.

But it is not purely about the non vaccinated attendee.  Non vaccinated are more likely to be hospitalised (Lots of stats published showing the dominance of non vaccinated admissions at present). When hospitals become overrun people die or at best operations/treatment for other conditions are cancelled. The bigger picture is the thing here, not sitting in your wee seat at Fir Park.

The scenes first time around when doctors in places such as Italy and the US had to decide which people to let die because hospitals could not cope or provide ventilators were harrowing. The UK almost got to that stage. I don't think any Government is wrong in trying to ensure a similar situation does not happen here as the virus continues to evolve.

Those that can be vaccinated and choose not to are not only endangering themselves, they are endangering the lives of vulnerable people, directly or indirectly. I think that is selfish. I'm not supporting that vaccination should be enforced, but if people opt not to be vaccinated as is their right, then I have no problem with them being excluded from specific events. That is the choice they must make.