Fans back into stadiums

[0Neils40yarder]

Some cracking responses in the past hour, that all make sense to me...

 

...regardless of your political persuasions, I'd suggest you're as well getting your head around being no where near Fir Park until Spring, at best.

[milo]

1 hour ago, ropy said:

Football is not being picked on, if anything it has been prioritised.

The issues being debated for the return of fans has nothing to do with them sitting 2m apart in a stadium, it is travel to and from, mingling outside, crowding out pubs, and moving in/out and around the stadium.  These issues will be different for every stadium and every fan base.

 

I think  you’re right, but by that logic shopping centres shouldn’t be allowed to operate then as you only have to pop your  head in to see the congestion and crowds in close proximity in there for the duration of their opening hours which is probably 7/8 hours a day.  Relatively small  numbers of football fans would only be required to do that for a fraction of that time so that argument is a weak one for me.

[milo]

1 hour ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

Some cracking responses in the past hour, that all make sense to me...

 

...regardless of your political persuasions, I'd suggest you're as well getting your head around being no where near Fir Park until Spring, at best.

You could be right. I think we need to write off the entire season actually which is thoroughly depressing.

 

[ropy]

9 hours ago, milo said:

I think  you’re right, but by that logic shopping centres shouldn’t be allowed to operate then as you only have to pop your  head in to see the congestion and crowds in close proximity in there for the duration of their opening hours which is probably 7/8 hours a day.  Relatively small  numbers of football fans would only be required to do that for a fraction of that time so that argument is a weak one for me.

The logic is difficult though, we just can’t compare different things.  Why can this happen when this can’t?  That is not the point.  It is all choices and compromises.  We can’t do everything, we need to pick which things we do.  Everyone’s vested interests means that in their eyes the wrong things are chosen to open up.

The things we have chosen to open up and our approach to that as a society has led to a recent increase in infections.  That might be a good thing or bad thing depending on your viewpoint but it does create a danger to certain elements of our population.

[weeyin]

You don't need to be a scientist, however, to work out that drunk people inside pubs are much more likely to spread the virus than socially distant football fans sitting outside.

[Ped_MFC]

Boris Johnson encouraging people to go back to cinemas to support them, obviously sitting within an enclosed cinema is safer than sitting out in the open at football. 

[sinjy]

21 hours ago, Ped_MFC said:

Boris Johnson encouraging people to go back to cinemas to support them, obviously sitting within an enclosed cinema is safer than sitting out in the open at football. 

Unfortunately there is no money for the government with limited  football stands being opened.  It would be season ticket holders only and they have already paid and the VAT collected by the government.

[Ya Bezzer!]

But how come you can do this and that but not go to the football...blah...blah...blah.

It's called risk management. 

Football has TV revenue and other revenues that allows it to operate.  Pubs, cinemas and shops don't and won't exist if they don't open.  So what you going to do?  

The government has to make very difficult choices right now.  It knows people going to the pub will catch Covid but it has to weight that against the entire hospitality industry collapsing.  It knows people will catch Covid from school kids but it has to weight that against the effect of suspending education and of school closures.  It knows university students will catch Covid but again it has to weight up the possibilities of universities going bust.

Has it always made the right decisions?  Probably not but this is an unprecedented situation and maybe alternative decisions produce other or even more serious problems.

Opening up football stadiums right now simply doesn't add up in terms of risk and if football thinks it's being hard done by it needs to take a look at other sectors of the economy.

This season was always going to be a write off for fans.  Honestly I'm kind sick of people in football moaning about it.  

Everyone knows that this winter is potentially the worst the virus is going to get, so buckle in cos this thing could well get worse.  What the football authorities should be concentrating on is getting this season completed, no getting fans into stadiums.

[weeyin]

I doubt that League One and League Two clubs are in a better financial position than pubs.

 

 

 

 

 

[wellwell91]

There was a US politician who famously said follow the numbers

End of July beginning of August Scotland seemed to have the infection rate under control with a record low number of infections being recorded

Schools went back 1st week in August and Universities at the beginning of September 

Numbers started to go through the roof.

In England who are roughly 3 to 4 weeks behind us with schools and Universities are starting to see a similar rise in number of infections 

For a virus that thrives on people making contact with each other think these stats speak for themselves and have to be taken into account

We can have education and some sort of the hospitality industry open but unfortunately not ALL!!! hard choices but choices none the less

Football especially with thousands of people in attendance is not going to happen anytime soon. 

I am very sceptical of politicians at the best of times but one person I have been impressed with during this pandemic is Jason Leitch and he has access to a lot more data than your average football punter on here and not for one moment do I think he is saying no fans at football matches just for the hell of it.

 

 

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 hour ago, weeyin said:

I doubt that League One and League Two clubs are in a better financial position than pubs.

Prize money for winning League One is £125,000.   What pub gets a six figure sum prize if it's open and doesn't serve a customer?

The situation is far from ideal but football has revenue sources outside of match day customers and if the worst comes to the worst it's easier for the SPFL or the Government to support a couple of dozen part time teams than it is to bail out the entire national hospitality business.

[weeyin]

2 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Prize money for winning League One is £125,000.   What pub gets a six figure sum prize if it's open and doesn't serve a customer?

The situation is far from ideal but football has revenue sources outside of match day customers and if the worst comes to the worst it's easier for the SPFL or the Government to support a couple of dozen part time teams than it is to bail out the entire national hospitality business.

So as long as all the teams in League One and League Two win League One they might be able to pay the rent.

If it's an economic (or even political) decision then just say that instead of pretending it's somehow safer to be indoors with drunk punters at 10pm then outside on a terrace at Somerset Park.

For me, however, the main argument to letting the grounds re-open is that  the number of clubs who would bother is probably minimal anyway - so it seems pretty low risk to just let them get on with it, and it might give us a head start to get things moving when the restrictions are eased.

 

 

 

[weeyin]

3 hours ago, wellwell91 said:

There was a US politician who famously said follow the numbers

End of July beginning of August Scotland seemed to have the infection rate under control with a record low number of infections being recorded

Schools went back 1st week in August and Universities at the beginning of September 

Numbers started to go through the roof.

In England who are roughly 3 to 4 weeks behind us with schools and Universities are starting to see a similar rise in number of infections 

For a virus that thrives on people making contact with each other think these stats speak for themselves and have to be taken into account

We can have education and some sort of the hospitality industry open but unfortunately not ALL!!! hard choices but choices none the less

Football especially with thousands of people in attendance is not going to happen anytime soon. 

I am very sceptical of politicians at the best of times but one person I have been impressed with during this pandemic is Jason Leitch and he has access to a lot more data than your average football punter on here and not for one moment do I think he is saying no fans at football matches just for the hell of it.

The numbers (and the science) aren't clear about all things, but they are pretty clear when it comes to outdoors being significantly safer than indoors.

[0Neils40yarder]

4 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

But how come you can do this and that but not go to the football...blah...blah...blah.

It's called risk management. 

Football has TV revenue and other revenues that allows it to operate.  Pubs, cinemas and shops don't and won't exist if they don't open.  So what you going to do?  

The government has to make very difficult choices right now.  It knows people going to the pub will catch Covid but it has to weight that against the entire hospitality industry collapsing.  It knows people will catch Covid from school kids but it has to weight that against the effect of suspending education and of school closures.  It knows university students will catch Covid but again it has to weight up the possibilities of universities going bust.

Has it always made the right decisions?  Probably not but this is an unprecedented situation and maybe alternative decisions produce other or even more serious problems.

Opening up football stadiums right now simply doesn't add up in terms of risk and if football thinks it's being hard done by it needs to take a look at other sectors of the economy.

This season was always going to be a write off for fans.  Honestly I'm kind sick of people in football moaning about it.  

Everyone knows that this winter is potentially the worst the virus is going to get, so buckle in cos this thing could well get worse.  What the football authorities should be concentrating on is getting this season completed, no getting fans into stadiums.

I very often disagree with your posts, but you have absolutely nailed it here.

 

Regardless of your political persuasions, both the Westminster and Holyrood governments have a helluva job right now, and they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. The constant moaning and sniping from the sidelines, at every single decision, is really tiresome. 

[0Neils40yarder]

4 hours ago, weeyin said:

I doubt that League One and League Two clubs are in a better financial position than pubs.

 

 

 

 

 

What sort of overheads does a club like Albion Rovers or Brechin City have? 

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

What sort of overheads does a club like Albion Rovers or Brechin City have? 

Brechin must spend a lot cutting the hedge thats down one side of the park, garden maintenance is expensive.

[Ya Bezzer!]

15 hours ago, weeyin said:

So as long as all the teams in League One and League Two win League One they might be able to pay the rent.

If it's an economic (or even political) decision then just say that instead of pretending it's somehow safer to be indoors with drunk punters at 10pm then outside on a terrace at Somerset Park.

For me, however, the main argument to letting the grounds re-open is that  the number of clubs who would bother is probably minimal anyway - so it seems pretty low risk to just let them get on with it, and it might give us a head start to get things moving when the restrictions are eased.

You know fine well all teams in the league get money on a sliding scale, you don't have to win League One.  And that on top of that they have other income revenues.  

Every decision made by the Government right now is a fine balance of economic, political and public health related considerations. The best message that the Government can put out there instead of explaining every decision in it's full complexity is to say that's it's just not safe and for everyone to accept that and that, while a difficult situation, the Government has to make hard decisions for the public health of the country....not mump and moan when you've already been given special dispensations, espouse completely ignorant opinions with no understanding of virology or come up with demented conspiracy theories and Trumpisms.  

At the end of the day there simply isn't a case for re-opening grounds as long as Covid is exponentially rising again as it is right now, regardless of what to you "seems pretty low risk".

Everyone knows that the pandemic has to be brought back under control now before the winter months come in so it's not going to happen and pundits, league officials and even punters are being highly irresponsible in going public with their descension.

It's hard enough right now without the weight of a mass of idiots pressing on the gates.

[steelboy]

32 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

You know fine well all teams in the league get money on a sliding scale, you don't have to win League One.  And that on top of that they have other income revenues.  

Every decision made by the Government right now is a fine balance of economic, political and public health related considerations. The best message that the Government can put out there instead of explaining every decision in it's full complexity is to say that's it's just not safe and for everyone to accept that and that, while a difficult situation, the Government has to make hard decisions for the public health of the country....not mump and moan when you've already been given special dispensations, espouse completely ignorant opinions with no understanding of virology or come up with demented conspiracy theories and Trumpisms.  

At the end of the day there simply isn't a case for re-opening grounds as long as Covid is exponentially rising again as it is right now, regardless of what to you "seems pretty low risk".

Everyone knows that the pandemic has to be brought back under control now before the winter months come in so it's not going to happen and pundits, league officials and even punters are being highly irresponsible in going public with their descension.

It's hard enough right now without the weight of a mass of idiots pressing on the gates.

Why do you think things are so different in Scotland than in France, Germany, England or Holland?

The Scottish Government have already shown with that they believe football fans are second class citizens with their OBFA. 

 

[DunnyMFC]

The Netherlands have postponed  matches and in some regions fans are banned since there is a risk of another lockdown.  They did ban shouting and chanting. 

[Spit_It_Out]

I don't get it folk are allowed to go on public transport trains and buses at a say social distance but fans of seated sports can't do the same?

Are they telling us that 500-1000 fans at grounds like Fir Park couldn't happen safely and a safe number at 60,000 plus Celtic park?

I

 

[Winning by Name]

21 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

But how come you can do this and that but not go to the football...blah...blah...blah.

It's called risk management. 

Football has TV revenue and other revenues that allows it to operate.  Pubs, cinemas and shops don't and won't exist if they don't open.  So what you going to do?  

The government has to make very difficult choices right now.  It knows people going to the pub will catch Covid but it has to weight that against the entire hospitality industry collapsing.  It knows people will catch Covid from school kids but it has to weight that against the effect of suspending education and of school closures.  It knows university students will catch Covid but again it has to weight up the possibilities of universities going bust.

Has it always made the right decisions?  Probably not but this is an unprecedented situation and maybe alternative decisions produce other or even more serious problems.

Opening up football stadiums right now simply doesn't add up in terms of risk and if football thinks it's being hard done by it needs to take a look at other sectors of the economy.

This season was always going to be a write off for fans.  Honestly I'm kind sick of people in football moaning about it.  

Everyone knows that this winter is potentially the worst the virus is going to get, so buckle in cos this thing could well get worse.  What the football authorities should be concentrating on is getting this season completed, no getting fans into stadiums.

Couldn't agree more although I still don't like the government, national or scottish

[Winning by Name]

1 hour ago, steelboy said:

Why do you think things are so different in Scotland than in France, Germany, England or Holland?

The Scottish Government have already shown with that they believe football fans are second class citizens with their OBFA. 

 

I live in France and what you say is wrong. Things are exactly the same here for normal people as in Scotland. So much for Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite.

[steelboy]

1 minute ago, Winning by Name said:

I live in France and what you say is wrong. Things are exactly the same here for normal people as in Scotland. So much for Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite.

I've watched French events with fans. 

There were fans at the Racing Metro vs Saracens rugby match despite it being played in an indoor arena. 

[Brazilian]

57 minutes ago, Spit_It_Out said:

I don't get it folk are allowed to go on public transport trains and buses at a say social distance but fans of seated sports can't do the same?

You might have read or seen the briefings that point out , there is an element of risk in every interaction , more so in public with people from different groups/families/areas that would allow the illness to spread.

so the government has to choose which activities to open up, as simply opening everything would mean too much risk of it spreading quickly and overwhelming society, 

so put yourself in a position where you have to choose which you can allow to operate :

public transport and all that it offers to allow society to function, ie workers  including nurses etc getting to work and public getting out albeit in a limited sense

or

football with a few hundred fans in each side of the pitch

 

 

Quote

Are they telling us that 500-1000 fans at grounds like Fir Park couldn't happen safely and a safe number at 60,000 plus Celtic park?

I

 

Not really, telling you it couldn’t happen safely, as every group event carries risk, even small family gatherings, more they are telling you , that until this is under control, then choices have to be made,  

the choices to date have been work, education, hospitality, very limited entertainment in small groups 

hundreds if not more things still haven’t been restarted with crowds, not just football,

rugby, theatre, concerts, horse racing, darts, athletics, public events like gala days , fetes, etc all sidelined, some not able to operate at all, unlike football that has been given special exemption,  but at some costs to put in measures , to operate 

the test events last month will hopefully show, that a number of fans can gather, but now when there’s exponential growth in cases being reported it would be irresponsible to open up more gatherings with that risk

no matter how much we all want to see a game

(p.s I’m not sure that many would enjoy it quite as much as their enthusiasm to return would indicate,  in the sterile silent manner that will be required short term)

 

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

2 hours ago, steelboy said:

Why do you think things are so different in Scotland than in France, Germany, England or Holland?

The Scottish Government have already shown with that they believe football fans are second class citizens with their OBFA. 

 

UK has 42,445 total deaths and 14,542 new cases yesterday from a population of 67 million.

Germany has 9,635 total deaths and 2,462 new cases yesterday from a population of 84 million.

Yes, it's different in different countries.