Fans back into stadiums

[Great Balls of Shire]

23 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

But how come you can do this and that but not go to the football...blah...blah...blah.

It's called risk management. 

Football has TV revenue and other revenues that allows it to operate.  Pubs, cinemas and shops don't and won't exist if they don't open.  So what you going to do?  

The government has to make very difficult choices right now.  It knows people going to the pub will catch Covid but it has to weight that against the entire hospitality industry collapsing.  It knows people will catch Covid from school kids but it has to weight that against the effect of suspending education and of school closures.  It knows university students will catch Covid but again it has to weight up the possibilities of universities going bust.

Has it always made the right decisions?  Probably not but this is an unprecedented situation and maybe alternative decisions produce other or even more serious problems.

Opening up football stadiums right now simply doesn't add up in terms of risk and if football thinks it's being hard done by it needs to take a look at other sectors of the economy.

This season was always going to be a write off for fans.  Honestly I'm kind sick of people in football moaning about it.  

Everyone knows that this winter is potentially the worst the virus is going to get, so buckle in cos this thing could well get worse.  What the football authorities should be concentrating on is getting this season completed, no getting fans into stadiums.

The figures for transmission in hospitality is very low , approx 5% , so it’s a bit of a myth that going to the pub spreads it very much.

[Great Balls of Shire]

18 hours ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

I very often disagree with your posts, but you have absolutely nailed it here.

 

Regardless of your political persuasions, both the Westminster and Holyrood governments have a helluva job right now, and they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. The constant moaning and sniping from the sidelines, at every single decision, is really tiresome. 

I wouldnt want their jobs either, but just some scientific explanation for not allowing some restricted crowds...I know I am like a broken record but football is played  and watched outside

[wellwell91]

2 hours ago, Spit_It_Out said:

I don't get it folk are allowed to go on public transport trains and buses at a say social distance but fans of seated sports can't do the same?

Are they telling us that 500-1000 fans at grounds like Fir Park couldn't happen safely and a safe number at 60,000 plus Celtic park?

I

 

The 500 - 1000 would all be season ticket holders so club would probably be out of pocket once it paid for all the extra staff to enable these fans to be in the stadium safely

Even it was 1000 paying customers we would still be out of pocket.

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

UK has 42,445 total deaths and 14,542 new cases yesterday from a population of 67 million.

Germany has 9,635 total deaths and 2,462 new cases yesterday from a population of 84 million.

Yes, it's different in different countries.

Germany has handled the pandemic very well but you can’t compare these specific figures are they are compiled very differently. The figures for the likes of China, Russia and Brazil, for example are nothing short of incredible. Some months ago the Italian government did not know if care home deaths were counted or not as each of its regions counted deaths differently. 

[Stu92]

53 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

I wouldnt want their jobs either, but just some scientific explanation for not allowing some restricted crowds...I know I am like a broken record but football is played  and watched outside

Explanation is given daily. If you don't already, you should watch one or two of the live briefings. Many others on this thread have summarised much better than I could. Being outside does not mean you are free from risk, nor does it mean you are free from bringing risk to others. Going to watch live football is a hobby, there are other industries much worse hit than football that also contribute more to the economy.

Without meaning to sound like a dick, and this isn't directed at you specifically but more to the broader section of population that "just don't get it", but if you still haven't seen the bigger picture and understood the risk/reward decisions that need to be made by every single government in the world on a daily basis then I don't think you ever will.

 

[steelboy]

1 hour ago, wellwell91 said:

The 500 - 1000 would all be season ticket holders so club would probably be out of pocket once it paid for all the extra staff to enable these fans to be in the stadium safely

Even it was 1000 paying customers we would still be out of pocket.

That's the wrong way of looking at it.

Every game that has no fans costs the club 1/19th of next year's season ticket income ie a four figure sum.

[wellwell91]

2 minutes ago, steelboy said:

That's the wrong way of looking at it.

Every game that has no fans costs the club 1/19th of next year's season ticket income ie a four figure sum.

I’m a season ticket holder and every year I renew it I look at it as a donation to the club.

I don’t attend any of the old firm games as I can’t be doing with the pish that either of them spout usually miss 5 or 6 other games so I only get roughly 50% of the games that I am entitled too.

If we don’t get into any of the games this year I will not be looking for refund or discount on next year’s ticket. My choice and I’m sure others will do likewise 

[Great Balls of Shire]

17 minutes ago, Stu92 said:

Explanation is given daily. If you don't already, you should watch one or two of the live briefings. Many others on this thread have summarised much better than I could. Being outside does not mean you are free from risk, nor does it mean you are free from bringing risk to others. Going to watch live football is a hobby, there are other industries much worse hit than football that also contribute more to the economy.

Without meaning to sound like a dick, and this isn't directed at you specifically but more to the broader section of population that "just don't get it", but if you still haven't seen the bigger picture and understood the risk/reward decisions that need to be made by every single government in the world on a daily basis then I don't think you ever will.

 

Fair enough , but if we had figures to indicate where and how transmission takes place, e.g pubs/ restaurants apparently are something like 5% of cases .

It would be interesting to know how widely it has been transmitted in an outdoor setting ,therefore with some sort of breakdown, it would be   easier to risk assess rather than just stop things completely.

if the track/ trace system is working effectively, these figs should be available.

 

[steelboy]

31 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

It would be interesting to know how widely it has been transmitted in an outdoor setting ,therefore with some sort of breakdown, it would be   easier to risk assess rather than just stop things completely.

if the track/ trace system is working effectively, these figs should be available.

 

The SFA and SPFL should be in contact with European leagues to get data about their experiences with distanced crowds.

Sturgeon definitely isn't providing much information unless you are just looking for empty platitudes every day. The Scottish Government have decided give care home providers anonymity and are delaying releasing the report into Covid in care homes which should have been published last week. That's just one example. Today she also said that despite distancing, masks etc we are somehow only three weeks away from the levels of March. Two months ago she was talking about zero Covid. 

[wellwell91]

6 minutes ago, steelboy said:

The SFA and SPFL should be in contact with European leagues to get data about their experiences with distanced crowds.

Sturgeon definitely isn't providing much information unless you are just looking for empty platitudes every day. The Scottish Government have decided give care home providers anonymity and are delaying releasing the report into Covid in care homes which should have been published last week. That's just one example. Today she also said that despite distancing, masks etc we are somehow only three weeks away from the levels of March. Two months ago she was talking about zero Covid. 

And what happened two months ago ??? … … School’s went back followed by university’s 

[Kmcalpin]

5 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Every decision made by the Government right now is a fine balance of economic, political and public health related considerations. The best message that the Government can put out there instead of explaining every decision in it's full complexity is to say that's it's just not safe and for everyone to accept that and that, while a difficult situation, the Government has to make hard decisions for the public health of the country....not mump and moan when you've already been given special dispensations, espouse completely ignorant opinions with no understanding of virology or come up with demented conspiracy theories and Trumpisms.  

At the end of the day there simply isn't a case for re-opening grounds as long as Covid is exponentially rising again as it is right now, regardless of what to you "seems pretty low risk".

Everyone knows that the pandemic has to be brought back under control now before the winter months come in so it's not going to happen and pundits, league officials and even punters are being highly irresponsible in going public with their descension.

It's hard enough right now without the weight of a mass of idiots pressing on the gates.

I agree with you in that Governments face extremely difficult challenges and they won't get everything right, if indeed there is any right and wrong way to handle the crisis.  These are almost unprecedented times. In general yes,the country should pull together but in reality there will always be dissenting voices; thats life.  Even the UK Government's SAGE Committee of experts and scientists disagree frequently amongst themselves. In many instances, so called "scientific advice" is not agreed by all the experts.   In terms of the crisis management there is no real right and no wrong approach, its all about balance. I would expect trade and industry organisations such as the SPFL, SFA, Homes for Scotland, Scottish Retail Consortium and trade unions to name but 5 to continue to represent their members. They have to because no government can be all seeing and hearing.

Its not irresponsible though for various parties to air their dissension, so long as its not disagreeing for the sake of it , which yes does go on all the time in wider society.  You cannot try to stifle or discourage free speech in a democracy. League officials are simply fighting their corner. As you probably know, I still favour some limited fan return to football games but I know others don't share that view, we'll agree to disagree on that. Government policy at all levels is riddled with inconsistency and thats not surprising given the complexity of the situation. There are "idiots" as you describe them but in all sectors of our society not just those "pressing on the gates", and in some places that would surprise you.

[DunnyMFC]

1 hour ago, steelboy said:

The SFA and SPFL should be in contact with European leagues to get data about their experiences with distanced crowds.

Sturgeon definitely isn't providing much information unless you are just looking for empty platitudes every day. The Scottish Government have decided give care home providers anonymity and are delaying releasing the report into Covid in care homes which should have been published last week. That's just one example. Today she also said that despite distancing, masks etc we are somehow only three weeks away from the levels of March. Two months ago she was talking about zero Covid. 

Well the Dutch leagues are going to go back to not having crowds.  Could follow their protocol where only a small amount of fans allowed in the stadiums but they have to stay quiet otherwise they can be faced with a 3 month ban. 

[DunnyMFC]

Rutte tells football fans: ‘Keep your mouth shut when you’re at the game’

 

[Andy_P]

2 hours ago, steelboy said:

Sturgeon definitely isn't providing much information unless you are

.... looking in the wrong place? Not looking hard enough?

There's 14 pages worth on information from today's announcement alone.

Evidence on Infection Trends from Announcement earlier today

[santheman]

3 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Fair enough , but if we had figures to indicate where and how transmission takes place, e.g pubs/ restaurants apparently are something like 5% of cases .

It would be interesting to know how widely it has been transmitted in an outdoor setting ,therefore with some sort of breakdown, it would be   easier to risk assess rather than just stop things completely.

if the track/ trace system is working effectively, these figs should be available.

 

Contact tracing has established that approx 1 in 5 people or 20% who tested positive had been in a cafe/bar/restaurant in the 14 days prior to being tested so think the 5% figure infection rate from those type of premises might be vastly underestimated.

[Kmcalpin]

I seem to recall that in England the majority of infections were said to originate in households but have no idea of the figures.

[0Neils40yarder]

I'm honestly amazed at how many folk are struggling with this...'I can sit on the bus to go an get my messages' so 'how can I not sit on a bus to a midweek cup game in Dundee'

[santheman]

7 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

I'm honestly amazed at how many folk are struggling with this...'I can sit on the bus to go an get my messages' so 'how can I not sit on a bus to a midweek cup game in Dundee'

Because going for your messages is an essential journey, going to a football match isn’t 

[0Neils40yarder]

Just now, santheman said:

Because going for your messages is an essential journey, going to a football match isn’t 

Well done that man

[weeyin]

12 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

I'm honestly amazed at how many folk are struggling with this...'I can sit on the bus to go an get my messages' so 'how can I not sit on a bus to a midweek cup game in Dundee'

I think it's the "I can't stand outside 12 feet away from a football fan, but I can stand beside my mate shooting grouse or take the bus and eat at McDonalds" that is more confusing,

[Ya Bezzer!]

15 hours ago, weeyin said:

I think it's the "I can't stand outside 12 feet away from a football fan, but I can stand beside my mate shooting grouse or take the bus and eat at McDonalds" that is more confusing,

Motherwell McDonald's has closed now and is only doing home orders.

Maybe that's cleared it up a bit for you.

[Great Balls of Shire]

19 hours ago, santheman said:

Contact tracing has established that approx 1 in 5 people or 20% who tested positive had been in a cafe/bar/restaurant in the 14 days prior to being tested so think the 5% figure infection rate from those type of premises might be vastly underestimated.

So  between 5 and 20 PC have  been in a pub or restaurant and MAY have caught it there, if there are ones who aren't doing the controls properly,  by all means,  close them. That  still leaves between 80 and 95 PC who haven't..

outdoor contact sports also stopped , is there evidence that there have been any transmission from this , genuine question??

House gatherings will continue unabated where presumably the vast majority are occurring 

...sledgehammer to crack a nut comes to mind 

[0Neils40yarder]

2 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

 

outdoor contact sports also stopped , is there evidence that there have been any transmission from this , genuine question??

 

Someone better tell my laddies fitba team, before they play their game on Saturday...

 

...as for unabated house parties, do the polis not raid parties every single weekend?

[santheman]

3 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

So  between 5 and 20 PC have  been in a pub or restaurant and MAY have caught it there, if there are ones who aren't doing the controls properly,  by all means,  close them. That  still leaves between 80 and 95 PC who haven't..

outdoor contact sports also stopped , is there evidence that there have been any transmission from this , genuine question??

House gatherings will continue unabated where presumably the vast majority are occurring 

...sledgehammer to crack a nut comes to mind 

The reason the Govt know those figures is because track and trace is working in those circumstances.

It’s the punters who cause the problems by giving false contact details so they could potentially be wandering about spreading the virus without even knowing they’ve been in contact with someone in the pub at the same time who has tested positive and might even be positive themselves

Those are likely the same ones who don’t wear masks in shops and go to house parties every week.

Its virtually impossible to prove whether someone has caught the virus through contact sports.

The affected  Accies/Killie/St Mirren players could have caught it in a shop or restaurant just as easily as at a training session

All any Govt can do is try and stop people meeting in large numbers to slow down the spread and unfortunately for us football falls into that category.

Anyway hope our 2 guys haven’t been anywhere near Stuart Armstrong.

[steelboy]

On 10/7/2020 at 7:14 PM, santheman said:

Contact tracing has established that approx 1 in 5 people or 20% who tested positive had been in a cafe/bar/restaurant in the 14 days prior to being tested so think the 5% figure infection rate from those type of premises might be vastly underestimated.

Surely more than 20% of people had been in a cafe, bar or restaurant in the previous fortnight?