2021 Scottish Cup Campaign

[grizzlyg]

4 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

With a dodgy 93 minute penalty of course.

That would be class!!,  also st midden cheated tonight as they played Zander Clark in goals tonight!! Lol

[weeyin]

50 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

as has been mentioned before very little between the premiership sides.

Which make it all the more amazing to me that Aberdeen are sitting 9 points clear in fourth - because any time I have seen them this season, including this weekend, they have been honking.

[wellwell91]

10 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

3 of the 4 QF's going all the way to pens, as has been mentioned before very little between the premiership sides.

Yip and the only team to miss penalties by the goalkeeper not saving them …… ????

If you can’t hit the target from 12 yards you don’t deserve to win a penalty shootout 

[Kris-A-Goalda]

On 4/26/2021 at 9:07 AM, Ya Bezzer! said:

If you are going to imagine this team won the cup you might as well imagine we signed Lionel Messi and he scored a last minute bicycle kick for the winner.

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's outwith the realms of possibility that it could have. The squad is poor, but barring the Dundee United victory, the other QFs showed how good/jobby the other teams left are.

Looking at it conversely, how could you imagine that a squad that had far higher-quality players like Hammell, Lasley, Pearson, Ainsworth, McManus, McDonald and Johnson could almost get us relegated? It took a one-off tie as such for that squad to keep us in the division. Who's to say that the current bunch of dross couldn't have shithoused it's way to the cup?

[Neilwell86]

winners of the cup Guaranteed 3m from  European football, no bad.

[MJC]

1 hour ago, wellwell91 said:

Yip and the only team to miss penalties by the goalkeeper not saving them …… ????

If you can’t hit the target from 12 yards you don’t deserve to win a penalty shootout 

Correct, our penalty shootout record overall is awful. Have we ever beaten a fellow top flight side in a shootout? I don’t know if Morton were in the top flight in 91 or not but I think if they were then that would be the only time we have.

Also our Cup record against top flight sides is pretty deplorable. I’m happy to be corrected if wrong here but outwith season 2017/18 we have only won ONCE against a top flight side since the 2011 SCSF. That was when we beat Livi in the last 16 of the League Cup in 2018. 

Us and Cups just don’t seem to go. We have neither the luck of the draw or the character to go all the way.

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, MJC_mkII said:

Correct, our penalty shootout record overall is awful. Have we ever beaten a fellow top flight side in a shootout? I don’t know if Morton were in the top flight in 91 or not but I think if they were then that would be the only time we have.

Also our Cup record against top flight sides is pretty deplorable. I’m happy to be corrected if wrong here but outwith season 2017/18 we have only won ONCE against a top flight side since the 2011 SCSF. That was when we beat Livi in the last 16 of the League Cup in 2018. 

Us and Cups just don’t seem to go. We have neither the luck of the draw or the character to go all the way.

I think 4 finals since 91 shows we have the character to go all the way, but coming up against the best two teams in the country in every one shows we don't always have the luck.

[MJC]

44 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

I think 4 finals since 91 shows we have the character to go all the way, but coming up against the best two teams in the country in every one shows we don't always have the luck.

Yeah that’s my point about not having the luck. We get to four finals and play the Old Firm every time, whereas if St.Johnstone get to the final then they will have played three finals in less than ten years where they haven’t played either of the OF in any of them. We have also had rotten luck with draws in earlier rounds, especially in the League Cup where since the format changed in 2016 we have been paired with a top flight side in every single knockout tie we’ve been in.

It is also true though that we have lacked the necessary character at crucial times during Cup competitions, particularly when we had a good side under McCall yet we bottled it regularly against sides we were well capable of beating.

[Goggles & Flippers]

2 hours ago, MJC_mkII said:

Correct, our penalty shootout record overall is awful. Have we ever beaten a fellow top flight side in a shootout? I don’t know if Morton were in the top flight in 91 or not but I think if they were then that would be the only time we have.

Also our Cup record against top flight sides is pretty deplorable. I’m happy to be corrected if wrong here but outwith season 2017/18 we have only won ONCE against a top flight side since the 2011 SCSF. That was when we beat Livi in the last 16 of the League Cup in 2018. 

Us and Cups just don’t seem to go. We have neither the luck of the draw or the character to go all the way.

You make your own luck.

Gary Player once said, "you know it's funny .... the more I practice, the luckier I get".

I have no doubt the size of their keeper won the mental battle and got in the heads of our players. However everyone was talking about the comeback, glazing over the general malaise that was the first 70 minutes of that tie.

People talk about our league finishes over the past 30 years and while the average placing over budget graph puts us way ahead of many teams, I'd cash that all in for a cup win. When you think almost every team in the league has picked up something in the last 30 years

League Cup:

• Ross County 15/16
• Livvy 03/04
• St Johnstone 20/21
• St Mirren 12/13
• Aberdeen 95/96 and 13/14
• Hibs 91/92 and 06/07
• Killie 11/12
• Raith Rovers 94/95

Scottish Cup:

• ICT 15/16
• St Johnstone 13/14
• Hearts 97/98, 05/06 and 11/12
• Hibs 15/16
• Killie 96/97
• Dundee Utd 93/94 and 09/10

[MJC]

17 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

You make your own luck.

Gary Player once said, "you know it's funny .... the more I practice, the luckier I get".

I have no doubt the size of their keeper won the mental battle and got in the heads of our players. However everyone was talking about the comeback, glazing over the general malaise that was the first 70 minutes of that tie.

People talk about our league finishes over the past 30 years and while the average placing over budget graph puts us way ahead of many teams, I'd cash that all in for a cup win. When you think almost every team in the league has picked up something in the last 30 years

League Cup:

• Ross County 15/16
• Livvy 03/04
• St Johnstone 20/21
• St Mirren 12/13
• Aberdeen 95/96 and 13/14
• Hibs 91/92 and 06/07
• Killie 11/12
• Raith Rovers 94/95

Scottish Cup:

• ICT 15/16
• St Johnstone 13/14
• Hearts 97/98, 05/06 and 11/12
• Hibs 15/16
• Killie 96/97
• Dundee Utd 93/94 and 09/10

Absolutely this. For all the 2nd and 3rd placed finishes were great, they don't come near a Cup win.

It's incredibly frustrating seeing that list and to think of the opportunities we missed during McCall's tenure when we had arguably the best team in the league outwith Celtic.

In 2011/12 when Kilmarnock(who we had outperformed in the league) won the League Cup we went out at home to Hibs(whom we had also outperformed) on penalties in the 3rd Round. When Hearts(who we had outperformed in the league) won the Scottish Cup in that same season we went out against Aberdeen (who couldn't buy a win against us in the league) at home in the QFs.

In 12/13 when we had our best side in years, St.Mirren won the League Cup and we had exited that tournament in the 3rd round to the then newly formed Rangers who were in the Third division at the time.

When St.Johnstone (who we had outperformed in the League) won the Scottish Cup in 2014 we went out at the first hurdle to Albion fooking Rovers!

And when Ross County won the League Cup in 2016 we had gone out against Morton in the 3rd Round.

 

All of that is infuriating when you think of the chances missed.

[weeyin]

14 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

You make your own luck.

Gary Player once said, "you know it's funny .... the more I practice, the luckier I get".

Of course Gary Player is also well documented cheat. (Google it, if you're not old enough to remember. Even Tom Watson accused him of it).

2 hours ago, MJC_mkII said:

Correct, our penalty shootout record overall is awful. Have we ever beaten a fellow top flight side in a shootout?

Penalty shoot outs, especially in the Scottish Cup, are rare to say the least. A more interesting question would be "how many penalty shoot outs have we had against a top flight side"?

It's a bit unfair to discount other "wee" teams - especially when we've knocked in all 5 on various occasions.

2 hours ago, MJC_mkII said:

Also our Cup record against top flight sides is pretty deplorable. I’m happy to be corrected if wrong here but outwith season 2017/18

That's also a bit unfair.

"Apart from the season when we got to two finals and beat multiple top flight teams along the way - including a classic battle against Rangers - we haven't done anything in the cup or beat good teams since 2011!"

Also, since 2011 we have finished second in the league once, third in the league 3 times and fourth in the league once. So it hasn't exactly been dark times during that period.

[weeyin]

5 minutes ago, MJC_mkII said:

Absolutely this. For all the 2nd and 3rd placed finishes were great, they don't come near a Cup win.

Maybe for some. But I enjoyed our last 2nd place finish as much as I enjoyed winning the cup. The one before that was ultimately a little frustrating as we had a legitimate shot at the title.

Pinning your hopes of success in competitions where you need a slice of luck to win is rarely going to make you happy (as you are proving with your frustration).

[Goggles & Flippers]

2 minutes ago, weeyin said:

Of course Gary Player is also well documented cheat. (Google it, if you're not old enough to remember. Even Tom Watson accused him of it).

Doesn't diminish the sentiment or the truth of the quote which essentially is, you put the hours in, you improve.

At present our plan in order of prominence is:

A) Avoid relegation

B) Make top six (to guarantee an OF visit to FP and the £250k it brings in)

C) Decent cup run in one out of the two

D) If B is achieved, push for Euro place

In our league  precession, there is a realisation that it will be one by one of two clubs. Therefore a team like us should be focused any tangible success coming from the cups.

[MJC]

17 minutes ago, weeyin said:

"Penalty shoot outs, especially in the Scottish Cup, are rare to say the least. A more interesting question would be "how many penalty shoot outs have we had against a top flight side"?

"Apart from the season when we got to two finals and beat multiple top flight teams along the way - including a classic battle against Rangers - we haven't done anything in the cup or beat good teams since 2011!"

Off the top of my head, I think we've had five penalty shootouts against top flight sides and lost them all.

Celtic in 86(?), Hibs in 2011, Accies in 2014, St.Mirren in 2020 and Hibs in 2021.

With regards to season 17/18, we were excellent in the Cups that year and showed the character and bottle that we hadn't seen for years, even when we had a significantly better team during McCall's time. We did also have a fair share of luck throughout, especially in the Scottish cup. That season was one of my favourite seasons ever, Robinson to his credit came in and instilled a sense of belief in the team and that, along with the Cup runs created a real good feelgood factor throughout the club. I enjoyed that season more than I enjoyed the season where we finished second when we pipped Aberdeen in the final minute (as hilarious as that was at the time.)

 

14 minutes ago, weeyin said:

Maybe for some. But I enjoyed our last 2nd place finish as much as I enjoyed winning the cup. The one before that was ultimately a little frustrating as we had a legitimate shot at the title.

Pinning your hopes of success in competitions where you need a slice of luck to win is rarely going to make you happy (as you are proving with your frustration).

That's fair enough, I enjoyed it too especially the second half of season 2012/2013 when we played some absolutely tremendous football and had an excellent attacking side and some really good players. Higdon, Randolph, Nicky Law, Ojamaa and the return of McFadden who was excellent during that period. But it was just tinged with frustration that that team never won any silverware.

[Goggles & Flippers]

Well the press seem to think St Mirren have a team of once in a generation world beaters and they're two points ahead of us ........ and every Well fan thinks we're chronic.

[bobbybingo]

Unless St Johnstone do the double, both cups will have been won by teams who didn't have to face either side of the Old Firm. There's a bit of luck that didn't come through practice. 

It's fair to say Hibs had a bit of an obsession with the Scottish Cup and it only took them 114 years to win it again. I get pissed off at times when it looks as though we're no bothered, but wanting it more or having a decent team is no guarantee of success.

 

[Kmcalpin]

37 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

Unless St Johnstone do the double, both cups will have been won by teams who didn't have to face either side of the Old Firm. There's a bit of luck that didn't come through practice. 

I too don't believe that good luck comes with practice. Going back to the 2018 League Cup Final with Celtic when Cedric was red-carded. That wasn't our fault nor was the ref's failure to award us a penalty when Moult was impeded in the box. 3 big decisions in the one game  none of which were down to lack of practice.

[bobbybingo]

2 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I too don't believe that good luck comes with practice. Going back to the 2018 League Cup Final with Celtic when Cedric was red-carded. That wasn't our fault nor was the ref's failure to award us a penalty when Moult was impeded in the box. 3 big decisions in the one game  none of which were down to lack of practice.

Absolutely. It's a good soundbite from Player, take it somebody implied his success was down to luck. But being good and being lucky are two different things that sometimes coincide, as they did with Celtic that day. Then you've no chance.

[Goggles & Flippers]

If you think the refs decisions on that day and the Friday night after were down to luck, akin to the flip of a coin. Then there's no hope. Yes fortune can come your way via the draw, home draws over away, your path to the final etc, but if you're fitter, hungrier, have more desire and drive then that certainly stacks the chips in your favour.

With respect to the refereeing decisions made, if you think it is down to anything other than the ref shitting it overtly or sub-consciously you're onto plums. I've always said your average SFA referee when they bank their £1,500 and go back to their day job as a accountant, surveyor or leader of the Tories will encounter a hell of a lot more OF fans in their daily life than Killie, Livvy or us.

Was McGregor going down at 86 mins and getting a penalty when we were 1-0 up in the "invincibles" season due to bad luck? I'd wager the ref didn't want to be the guy officiating over their defeat and McGregors actions were a relief.

I've always thought they get half a man advantage from their support and half from the officials and another from their financial gulf. That needs our full team on song and a quite few of theirs to be off their game. That's what equates to their record over the years with us as because of the players we can attract and afford. It is not often you get the whole Motherwell team purring away perfectly together.

[bobbybingo]

Luck's something that's out of your hands, so you could argue about what does or doesn't constitute it all day.

2011 final, Gunning hits the bar - bad luck, or would've scored if he'd been more accurate? Majstorovic doesn't get a second booking for handball - he gets lucky or the ref shits it? I agree with you on that kinda incident, and it rams home how much tougher it is when you face Celtic or Rangers in the cup. Like you say, better players, bigger support, dodgy calls likely to go in their favour. It also shows how real luck - avoiding the pair of them - can go a long way to winning a trophy, if you do the stuff you can affect well. Like taking penalties.

 

 

[MJC]

The draw is of course down to luck but to be fair the majority of non-OF sides who had won silverware in my lifetime have either beaten one of them en route or in the final itself, us in 91 included. Obviously there have been the odd exceptions with St.Johnstone this year with the LC and in 2014 and Hearts in ‘98 and ‘06 but in reality you know that the majority of times you are going to have to beat at least one of them if you want to lift silverware.

 

[bobbybingo]

23 minutes ago, MJC_mkII said:

The draw is of course down to luck but to be fair the majority of non-OF sides who had won silverware in my lifetime have either beaten one of them en route or in the final itself, us in 91 included. Obviously there have been the odd exceptions with St.Johnstone this year with the LC and in 2014 and Hearts in ‘98 and ‘06 but in reality you know that the majority of times you are going to have to beat at least one of them if you want to lift silverware.

 

I think (though I could be wrong) you've got St Johnstone (2), Hearts, Kilmarnock, Livingston, Aberdeen and Hibs who've won cups during that time without facing the Old Firm, though most of them have also won cups where they beat them at some point. If that proves anything, it's what we all already know, you've got to beat what's in front of you, and too often we don't when we should.

At least I can say we've never (in my time) lost a final we were favourites to win, and, apart from Airdrie, it's the same story for semis. But 3 teams are gonnae take a sore one this year.

[MJC]

14 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

But 3 teams are gonnae take a sore one this year.

That’s true and I think that losing a Cup Final to any of the sides remaining in the competition, especially St.Mirren, would be ten times worse than losing to Celtic like we have done in our last three finals.

I’d imagine that for Dundee Utd in ‘91 losing to us four years after losing to St.Mirren and being favourites to win their first Scottish Cup must have been an absolute hammer blow. All the more so when you consider that we played for the majority of the second half and the whole of extra time with a severely injured goalkeeper who still managed to pull off a wonder save in the dying minutes of ET.

[texanwellfan]

Not sure if it’s just me so I’d be interested in comments from some of the older folks on here about cup ties. My recollection is that you could easily tell the difference between a cup game and a league game. Cup games were much more intense but nowadays, for me anyway, they just seem like another game. 

[well_said]

3 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I too don't believe that good luck comes with practice. Going back to the 2018 League Cup Final with Celtic when Cedric was red-carded. That wasn't our fault nor was the ref's failure to award us a penalty when Moult was impeded in the box. 3 big decisions in the one game  none of which were down to lack of practice.

We really were playing against 12 men that day. That cheating barsteward really hated us.