Stevie O'D

[bobbybingo]

43 minutes ago, dennyc said:

The future of the national side is rosier than it has been for years, if Clarke is brave and determined enough to trust the youth coming through to support established players like Tierney, Robertson, McGinn and McTominey. 

 

I'm desperate to see us succeed, but he needs to start beating teams bigger than Cyprus, the Faroes, Kazakhstan and San Marino. Then I'll start believing, not dreaming. One or two big results against Denmark and Austria would prove we're moving forward and not just flattering to deceive because this squad were given second or third chances to qualify others weren't.

I honestly don't know what level you think Motherwell are at. We recruit from lower/non league teams in England now, generally speaking, and if we qualify for Europe, we're out as soon as we face a side of any quality. As a Well fan, I'm happy to see our players get recognition. When I put my Scotland hat on, it's obvious they'll struggle against top nations, because our 'stars' struggle against them. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

6 hours ago, Lobey_Dosser said:

McGregor and Christie are far from finished. Both have been integral parts of our upturn in fortunes but sadly neither came into the tournament in good form. Hopefully Turnbull gets his chance soon enough but he presumably didn’t impress in training despite having a decent game against the Netherlands. I do think/hope Clarke will regret persisting with two non goalscoring strikers when Christie, Fraser, Forrest and Turnbull have all got what it takes to contribute in the final third. The long ball tactic needs to be put in the bin. 

I never said they were finished.

But I think their days of being automatic picks ahead of guys like Turnbull and Gilmour should be.

Clarke has continually played players out of form or players who's international form has been nowhere near their club form or potential.

That needs to end.  

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 hour ago, ropy said:

If Turnbull had stayed at Fir Park he would have played all season and would very likely have been brought into the squad earlier than he was.  That would have increased his likelihood of playing.  Move to the Celtic and stay as you are, play for the ‘Well and be a superstar.

Or something.

Turnbull was ignored at Motherwell.  He could have played in our team at least 6 months earlier if not a year earlier but we were too busy playing hoofball.

He was then ignored by Scotland U-21s when Campbell and Maguire were 1st picks as well as lesser players from other clubs.

He then moved to Celtic and was given a cold shoulder by Lennon for half a season until, much like at Motherwell, the manager had no choice to throw him in as a desperate measure.

Then after being Celtic's best player outshining guys like McGregor and Christie, he only gets picked for Scotland after injuries and squad extensions and even then doesn't get a single minute of football at the Finals.

This is how we treat probably the most technically gifted footballer that the Scottish Premiership will produce from this generation of young footballers.  

The mentality of Scottish football FUCKING STINKS.  The distrust of youth and talent (double so when combined) is why we are where we are.  

 

[steelboy]

The issue with Turnbull is you either build the team around him or leave him out. I agree we should have brought him in earlier but for Scotland he is competing with McGinn for a place who has been our best player over the past two years. 

It's the same issue Grealish has with England and he is a far more complete player at the moment.

[GazzyB]

Turnbull should have been in ahead of Armstrong, or at the very least brought on for him at half time.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, steelboy said:

It's better than it has been but it doesn't mean much. The sharp end of international football is extremely competitive and your not going to get the vital wins against the likes of Denmark or Austria with 2/3rds of a good team. 

We don't have a goalkeeper, McKenna is apparently our second best centre back and Adams has potential but after that we have nothing up front and the cupboard is bare right down through the age groups. 

We were the least experienced squad in the tournament and we compounded that by starting different defensive and midfield trios in every game which had either never played together before or only once or twice. Clarke has only started the same team in consecutive matches once some of which is down to injuries but a lot of it has been pandering to clubs. That bit him on the arse over the past 8 days. 

Nobody is saying it is perfect and I agree with you regards Goalkeeper and Centre Back needing upgraded.

But no vital wins with 2/3rds of a good team? What about Wales? What do they have? TWO decent ageing players in Bale and Ramsay but their qualifying and tournament record is superb of late despite the rest of the team being way below that level. And those two players have hardly played all season for their clubs. And some of that national success under a caretaker Manager. Northern Ireland also had some praiseworthy success.

We have four players currently starring at huge clubs in England in Tierney Robertson McGinn and McTominey,  Players who could argueably have a case for featuring in an EPL select squad. Add to that Gilmour Turnbull Adams Patterson Nisbet as younger newcomers who are an upgrade on where we were 6 months ago. All of them will improve given the correct support. I would add Kerr of St Johnstone and maybe Doig at Hibs as options worth trying. And whether we like to admit it or not the Scottish players at Rangers and Celtic are of a decent standard. So we are far from starved of talent and quality.

Tactics and formation are another matter and Clarke has to construct a formation that plays to the strengths of his squad and stop being focused on setting up a team not to lose, rather than setting up a team to win. He is not in charge of Kilmarnock any more. The Czech game is a prime example of that approach. That  game cost us qualification, not the Croatia game.

But some are using last night to once again rip into SOD, who was far from being our worst player. And those same folk never uttered a word after his outstanding performance against England. Seems to me they have an agenda and last night's result simply played into their hands. Sadly some of them are Motherwell fans.

Not at international level clearly, but the same thing happened all the time with Dunne, and more recently with Lamie, Mugabi and McGinley. Deafening silence when they play well but jump on for every error. I get it that fans play favourites, but how about some credit where credit is due rather than using every slight error to try and prove a point. 

Having said all that, Scotland need to find a goalkeeper who can take over for the next 10 years.

[Spit_It_Out]

Turnbull 100 percent should have been given game time of some sort at this tournament.Get all the young guys playing with Roberston and such the more they play together in a system that works it will see us in good stead for years.

We have lots of talent sadly we need a manager with the skills to work with it.Paterson should start aswell the World Cup qualifiers along with Turnbull,Gilmour and such.

 

 

[0Neils40yarder]

6 hours ago, CoF said:

Disagree. Put together a 5 minute highlight reel of why we went out and you'll have a couple of contributions from O'Donnell where he arguably could have done better alongside plenty from almost every other player on the pitch (who are all on 5/10 times his club wage) - the biggest culprits being our midfielders and forwards who missed plenty of half chances and a few absolute sitters that could have turned all three games in our favour. Likewise, put together a highlight reel of positive passages of play and chances created and you'll have O'Donnell playing his part there. 

We went out due to a combination of poor finishing, poor defending and poor decision making...SOD had a nightmare against the Czechs when we were beaten and was for me our worst performer last night. I get that he is the lowest paid player in the squad...theres probably a really good reason for that.

[steelboy]

31 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Nobody is saying it is perfect and I agree with you regards Goalkeeper and Centre Back needing upgraded.

But no vital wins with 2/3rds of a good team? What about Wales? What do they have? TWO decent ageing players in Bale and Ramsay but their qualifying and tournament record is superb of late despite the rest of the team being way below that level. And those two players have hardly played all season for their clubs. And some of that national success under a caretaker Manager. Northern Ireland also had some praiseworthy success.

We have four players currently starring at huge clubs in England in Tierney Robertson McGinn and McTominey,  Players who could argueably have a case for featuring in an EPL select squad. Add to that Gilmour Turnbull Adams Patterson Nisbet 

Bale has 33 goals in 95 caps. Ramsey has 17 in 66. Our entire Euros squad has 37 goals between. They are not comparable to Wales. 

If we had a goalscorer coming through I would agree things are on the up. I can see us qualifying for the Euros as often as not due to the expanded format but the World Cup is miles off. 

 

 

[dennyc]

10 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Bale has 33 goals in 95 caps. Ramsey has 17 in 66. Our entire Euros squad has 37 goals between. They are not comparable to Wales. 

If we had a goalscorer coming through I would agree things are on the up. I can see us qualifying for the Euros as often as not due to the expanded format but the World Cup is miles off. 

 

 

Agree we are not comparable to Wales. We have more quality players than them. Especially coming through where they really only have James. 

And if Adams gets 95 caps he might not get 33 goals but he will come close. And if Turnbull gets 66 caps he should get 17 goals. Comparing senior players with over 160 caps to two players with under a dozen is hardly a decent comparison either. And McGinn has ten goals in thirty six, which is similar to and possibly better than Ramsay.

I am looking to the future not the past. But if you must, how much success did Wales have in Bale's first 40 games? And I also think we have the potential for way above your 2/3rds success  measure, particularly as Wales achieved success with 2/11ths (maybe 3/11ths at times)

[steelboy]

24 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Agree we are not comparable to Wales. We have more quality players than them. Especially coming through where they really only have James. 

And if Adams gets 95 caps he might not get 33 goals but he will come close. And if Turnbull gets 66 caps he should get 17 goals. Comparing senior players with over 160 caps to two players with under a dozen is hardly a decent comparison either. And McGinn has ten goals in thirty six, which is similar to and possibly better than Ramsay.

I am looking to the future not the past. But if you must, how much success did Wales have in Bale's first 40 games? And I also think we have the potential for way above your 2/3rds success  measure, particularly as Wales achieved success with 2/11ths (maybe 3/11ths at times)

I disagree about McGinn and Ramsey. Ramsey has scored lot of significant goals for Wales. McGinn only has the equaliser against Austria.

Qualifying for the World Cup or the knock out stages of the Euros will be extremely difficult unless we unearth a goal scorer. It might be Turnbull but I doubt it.

[dennyc]

I agree we will need to find goals to qualify. I just think we are closer to having a team that can compete than you appear to be given the players at our disposal. That is if Clarke wakes up, stops being swayed by reputation and the media, learns from the past couple of weeks and sets us up to win rather than avoid defeat. A big ask given his history and on top of that he has to be ruthless and look to the future.

And the repeated SOD trashing by some on here for every (possible) error whilst intentionally ignoring good performances is just disgusting. He plays for a wee team in Scotland and represents us well. It's not like he is at Bayern, PSG or Real Madrid and you might think folks judgements would reflect that fact.

Good debate though.

[Spiderpig]

40 minutes ago, steelboy said:

I disagree about McGinn and Ramsey. Ramsey has scored lot of significant goals for Wales. McGinn only has the equaliser against Austria.

Qualifying for the World Cup or the knock out stages of the Euros will be extremely difficult unless we unearth a goal scorer. It might be Turnbull but I doubt it.

Totally agree That's the fundamental issue with Scotland, no goalscorer,  most of the goals Scotland score are against the dross teams, like San Marino, Gibraltar and the like and even then its maybe only 1 or  2 when the better teams are hitting 5 and 6.

The whole setup at the SFA is a shambles, Clarke is getting praise for doing a good job, when in reality he is tactically clueless.  We need somebody in who will ditch all the has beens who have had their chance and bring in the young talent in in Scotland like Turnbull, Nisbet, Patterson, Gilmour  etc to work with and develop alongside the core top players we have Robertson, Tierney,  McTomminay, McGinn, might take a couple of years to build a team but it needs to happen. 

Oh and cut SOD some slack he's maybe not the best in the Scotland team but he's definitely not the worst.

[Happy Dosser]

40 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Totally agree That's the fundamental issue with Scotland, no goalscorer,  most of the goals Scotland score are against the dross teams, like San Marino, Gibraltar and the like and even then its maybe only 1 or  2 when the better teams are hitting 5 and 6.

The whole setup at the SFA is a shambles, Clarke is getting praise for doing a good job, when in reality he is tactically clueless.  We need somebody in who will ditch all the has beens who have had their chance and bring in the young talent in in Scotland like Turnbull, Nisbet, Patterson, Gilmour  etc to work with and develop alongside the core top players we have Robertson, Tierney,  McTomminay, McGinn, might take a couple of years to build a team but it needs to happen. 

Oh and cut SOD some slack he's maybe not the best in the Scotland team but he's definitely not the worst.

Yes, some of the comments from  Motherwell supporters on SOD are perplexing and  disappointing. Normally supporters of a club at our level would be quite proud of  his  cap. Players at more illustrious clubs seem to get a free pass, however. To my eyes, Armstrong was extremely poor, McTominay is completely over-rated and Tierney  lost his aerial duel at a set-piece for the third goal, yet it seems only O'Donnell is to blame for Croatia's first. Sometimes there's a weird kind of self-loathing exhibited on these pages which makes me wonder if some folk  support our club or country at all.

Agreed we had no natural goal-scorers, which ultimately was our downfall, but following that logic how bad must Poland be, going out on the same points as us with Lewandowski playing for them with 41 goals in the Bundesliga this year?

 

[Onthefringes]

He was. I can vouch for that. It’s a shame Hartwood disbanded when he was on the cusp of even greater things. Had been untold success until then.

[Onthefringes]

14 minutes ago, Robbos boy said:

I presume you mean Hartwood hospital, as I have it from a good source that he was indeed DUGSHITE himself, only saying like. 

We’ll don’t. Not everybody is part of the Stephen O’Donnell love in. 

[0Neils40yarder]

28 minutes ago, Robbos boy said:

Having been an avid reader as regards the content and discussion on this forum, I decided to join. May I just say for my first post, Mr Fortyarder you must have been some player yourself and to describe our Captain and 20 plus Scotland cap player as Dugshite I wonder why you even post or support the team. Some of your comments regarding our players are outrageous. 

What's supporting Motherwell got to do with my opinion of a player playing in a Scotland Jersey?

 

Do I think SOD is adequate at our level? Aye...do I think he is what we need in a Scotland Jersey? Absolutely not.

 

There are nae claret and amber tinted specs where me and Scotland are concerned.

[Ped_MFC]

The criticism of O'Donnell is over the top, his performance last night wasn't his best but was of a similar level to that of most of his team-mates.

I've seen a few posters on here parroting the meedja line that Nathan Patterson should be in the team from this point forward (and in some cases that he should have played the 3 Euros matches). Worth pointing out that he has played 7 senior matches for the Buns. 7.  He may turn out to be another Cafu but I think he needs to prove it at domestic level over a longer period than that before he's heralded as the next big thing.

But then how many players have we seen struggle to get a game for Scotland then become a regular in the squad as soon as they sign for one of the ugly sisters. Whatever happened to Lewis Morgan?

 

[0Neils40yarder]

1 minute ago, Ped_MFC said:

The criticism of O'Donnell is over the top, his performance last night wasn't his best but was of a similar level to that of most of his team-mates.

I've seen a few posters on here parroting the meedja line that Nathan Patterson should be in the team from this point forward (and in some cases that he should have played the 3 Euros matches). Worth pointing out that he has played 7 senior matches for the Buns. 7.  He may turn out to be another Cafu but I think he needs to prove it at domestic level over a longer period than that before he's heralded as the next big thing.

But then how many players have we seen struggle to get a game for Scotland then become a regular in the squad as soon as they sign for one of the ugly sisters. Whatever happened to Lewis Morgan?

 

I have sympathy with both Clarke and SOD as there is no other obvious candidate...Palmer is on a level par with SOD, Paterson is young and highly inexperienced, Rooney would have been a huge risk, Hickey has hardly played in months and is inexperienced, Forrest wouldn't do any better defensively than SOD...so I see why Clarke sticks by him. It's just a pity that he is clearly the weakest player in the regular starting XI.

[Coatsy]

13 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

I have sympathy with both Clarke and SOD as there is no other obvious candidate...Palmer is on a level par with SOD, Paterson is young and highly inexperienced, Rooney would have been a huge risk, Hickey has hardly played in months and is inexperienced, Forrest wouldn't do any better defensively than SOD...so I see why Clarke sticks by him. It's just a pity that he is clearly the weakest player in the regular starting XI.

 

No not clearly the weakest player that's your opinion. Dykes and Adams are far worse strikers that SOD is a defender. But they are deemed to be the best options by the manager who i expect you will say is rubbish as well. The negative posts on this forum about a Motherwell player who is representing his country are DUGSHITE

[0Neils40yarder]

2 minutes ago, Coatsy said:

 

No not clearly the weakest player that's your opinion. Dykes and Adams are far worse strikers that SOD is a defender. But they are deemed to be the best options by the manager who i expect you will say is rubbish as well. The negative posts on this forum about a Motherwell player who is representing his country are DUGSHITE

I'd suggest it's the opinion of most Scotland followers who arent blinded by the good old claret and amber spectacles 

 

As for the strikers, both are playing consistently at a higher level than our guy

 

On the manager, I have a fair amount of time for him, but I think he could a fair few things wrong over the past couple of weeks

[mfc]

It was great to see one of our players representing the country at a major tournament but for me o'donnell isn't good enough for that level,I would even suggest on club form last season he wouldn't have been picked as for me he was pretty poor overall but it just shows there isn't any better options,the guy palmer looked a bombscare anytime he was involved and there's no way Patterson can be considered as first choice until he's playing week in week out with rangers or elsewhere.what does annoy me though is o'donnell is an easy target for fans of other clubs just because he plays with motherwell but there's so called better players playing in better leagues that consistently fail to turn up and produce for scotland,take stuart armstrong for example anytime I've seen him for southampton he seems to play well but take last night,he was strolling about and in need of a rocket up his arse.its just a pity that we always seem to be strong in one or two areas of the national team and shit in the rest and we can't get together a fairly strong 11 that might bring us a bit of success.

[Yorkyred]

My take on it is he’s not the greatest player ever to grace a Scotland jersey but neither are the majority of players capped over the last ten years or so. The days of players like Kenny D and the like who were the backbone of Man Utd and Liverpool are well gone and may never return. I personally don’t get the amount of stick he gets by some Motherwell supporters but hey each to their own, it’s a free country I guess.

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, Happy Dosser said:

 

Agreed we had no natural goal-scorers, which ultimately was our downfall, but following that logic how bad must Poland be, going out on the same points as us with Lewandowski playing for them with 41 goals in the Bundesliga this year?

 

To be fair Lewandowski scored 2 and had chances to win it for Poland,  but I take your point, a goalscorer for Scotland with a fraction of his talent would be a step in the right direction,but finding a player like that is another matter.

[Happy Dosser]

12 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

To be fair Lewandowski scored 2 and had chances to win it for Poland,  but I take your point, a goalscorer for Scotland with a fraction of his talent would be a step in the right direction,but finding a player like that is another matter.

Step forward, Connor Shields.....