International Players Thread

[The African]

Got up for a 6am kick off here, not deluded by our lucky result in Greece, but hopeful of a n improved performance and result. If I hadn't had a work meeting scheduled for 11am I was sorely tempted to go back to bed at half time. A minute into the second half and I went to make some breakfast. The saddest part of it now is that I realize that I no longer really care. Certainly not like I used to care back in the day. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see them win, like to see them qualify for tournaments, love to see the odd Motherwell player get a cap and advance their careers, but it is now too easy just to write nit off as just another disappointment and refuse to let it spoil the rest of my day. New Zealand will qualify for the World Cup this evening so I will have someone to have an interest in next year, but they are not going to get beyond the group stages, and the thought of a 48 team competition already has me thinking I will give it a miss.

I have been saying it for a while, but international football is in serious trouble.

[weeyin]

I think the Scottish international side is in serious trouble thanks to years of short-termism and fundamental failings in the grass roots of our game.

The Nations League quarter finals today, however, were all excellent.

[numpty]

46 minutes ago, The African said:

I have been saying it for a while, but international football is in serious trouble.

Well, some of it is. The Spain v Netherlands game tonight was a belter.

[Mad Dog]

15 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

When will people realise that Clarke and the rest of the Scotland management are useless fuds, constantly filling the squads with bang average at best non Scots just because their Granny or Granpa ate shortbread at the expense of homegrown talent like Miller etc. Its time for the whole management team to be binned and replaced.

I take exception to that. Which 'non-Scot' took Miller's place?

[grizzlyg]

2 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

I take exception to that. Which 'non-Scot' took Miller's place?

I would take a punt its at George Hirst, capped under 17, 19 and 20 for England. Grandad Scottish.     Should be nowhere near squad in my opinion.  I want guys passionaite for our country, not guys only picking us for convenience

[grizzlyg]

In Portugal on holiday and watched it in Irish bar.  Clarke overloyalty was always going to cost us.

1) Mckenna playing in la liga yet Hanley gets ahead of him.

2) Lewis ferguson outstanding in serie A yet dropped before McLean and replaced by the right wing headless chicken that is Ryan Christie. ( who has been outstanding for Bournemouth in centre defensive mid yet Clarke thinks differently)

3) young lennon should have got last 20 mins,  would have given place a boost plus no pressure on him as game was finished anyway

[Spiderpig]

3 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

I take exception to that. Which 'non-Scot' took Miller's place?

I refer to the likes of, Slicker, Conway, Hirst, Adams, Dykes and a large list of non Scots given caps over the years because they had a Scottish Granny or Grandpa etc at the expense of homegrown talent like Miller, Turnbull, Doak, to name a few in a long list.

The whole Scotland set up is a shambles as some of the best and promising talent in the country is constantly being overlooked.

[mfc]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

In Portugal on holiday and watched it in Irish bar.  Clarke overloyalty was always going to cost us.

1) Mckenna playing in la liga yet Hanley gets ahead of him.

2) Lewis ferguson outstanding in serie A yet dropped before McLean and replaced by the right wing headless chicken that is Ryan Christie. ( who has been outstanding for Bournemouth in centre defensive mid yet Clarke thinks differently)

3) young lennon should have got last 20 mins,  would have given place a boost plus no pressure on him as game was finished anyway

Good points grizzly,hanley and ralston can't get near there club sides but yet clarke sees them as the answer for a two legged tie,there's no way either would be sharp enough for the demands.not even being biased towards max johnstone but he should have been involved,he had the balls to make the move abroad and further his career and has impressed in doing so but yet we stick with ralston who seems the type that will happily sit on his arse and not play as long as he's doing it at his beloved celtic.

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

I refer to the likes of, Slicker, Conway, Hirst, Adams, Dykes and a large list of non Scots given caps over the years because they had a Scottish Granny or Grandpa etc at the expense of homegrown talent like Miller, Turnbull, Doak, to name a few in a long list.

The whole Scotland set up is a shambles as some of the best and promising talent in the country is constantly being overlooked.

As someone who follows Scotland home and away, thats just not true.

Miller is in the squad at 18 years old. I still think its a bit early for him but absolutely delighted with his inclusion.

Turnbull was in plenty of squads with the chance to impress. Maybe he didnt? He only got dropped when he got injured for Celtic and then couldnt force his way back into the Celtic first team (and then onto Cardiff where he is again injured).

Doak was selected for the Euros squad at 18 years old when not even commanding a first team place at Liverpool. He didnt go because he got injured in training. He isnt in this squad cause he is injured again.

Slicker, Conway, Hirst, Adams, Dykes, all selected in problem positions where there literally are NO naturally born Scots youngsters battering down the door.

There really isnt anyone in Scotland good enough who isnt being selected because of a so called "non-scot".

 

[dennyc]

57 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

I refer to the likes of, Slicker, Conway, Hirst, Adams, Dykes and a large list of non Scots given caps over the years because they had a Scottish Granny or Grandpa etc at the expense of homegrown talent like Miller, Turnbull, Doak, to name a few in a long list.

The whole Scotland set up is a shambles as some of the best and promising talent in the country is constantly being overlooked.

I tend to agree with you but when you dig deeper you find that (based solely on place of birth) Max Johnston is no more entitled to play for Scotland than Scott McTominey, Lyndon Dykes and Bryan Gunn. All three born outside Scotland but with a parent or parents who were born in Scotland. Both Dykes parents were born in Scotland. So if being born outside Scotland is the criteria then our pool is even smaller and some surprising players would be ineligible. Also for me  it seems unreasonable to ignore players who were born outside of Scotland because a parent was 'abroad' for work purposes. It is not as if the child chose to be born outside Scotland.  Max Johnston as an example when his dad was playing for Middlesborough.. 

Extending qualification to take into account a grandparent is a step too far for me though. So that would exclude Hirst, Conway, Slicker and Adams. Maybe that's a balance that's fairer? 

Just to add to the nonsense, although the Home Nations agreed as a group to ignore them, per Uefa/Fifa  players can qualify based on the length of time they have been in a country and any player born in the UK can play for any of the four nations. Schooling in a country for a set number of years is yet another route to qualification. James Tavernier is actually eligible to play for Scotland. Not saying he should but technically he qualifies.

 And, for the more senior amongst us, Jack Charlton also has a lot to answer for.

I think the current Manager is a bigger problem than qualification criteria though. His loyalty to players who hardly feature for their Clubs is nonsensical. As is his refusal to select in form players. Only one Manager learned anything from the Thursday night win in Greece. And it wasn't Steve Clarke. Did he really believe that Ralston and Hanley with next to no game time for their Clubs could survive two full games in four days at International level.

  

 

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, mfc said:

Good points grizzly,hanley and ralston can't get near there club sides but yet clarke sees them as the answer for a two legged tie,there's no way either would be sharp enough for the demands.not even being biased towards max johnstone but he should have been involved,he had the balls to make the move abroad and further his career and has impressed in doing so but yet we stick with ralston who seems the type that will happily sit on his arse and not play as long as he's doing it at his beloved celtic.

Hanley and Ralston were both absolutely outstanding in Athens on Thursday night. Lack of first team football didnt seem to impede either of them then.

Max Johnstone has been a bit part player for Sturm Graz. Hardly a first team regular. I rate him and I would have liked to see him given his chance last night. I would have reverted to a back 3 with Tierney available again and Ralston not suited to the RWB role.

It would have been a risk either way. But for me the way the second half panned out in Athens, we should have offered Greece a different test.

Thats on Clarke.

[Mad Dog]

2 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

I refer to the likes of, Slicker, Conway, Hirst, Adams, Dykes and a large list of non Scots given caps over the years because they had a Scottish Granny or Grandpa etc at the expense of homegrown talent like Miller, Turnbull, Doak, to name a few in a long list.

The whole Scotland set up is a shambles as some of the best and promising talent in the country is constantly being overlooked.

Okay, I'll assume that you could have worded your opinion better as you mentioned only Miller as an example. I agree that not all of those with Scottish ancestry are necessarily fully committed to Scotland. However, being born outside of Scotland (like myself) doesn't automatically make someone not Scottish. I'll give you Richard Gough, Andy Goram, Stuart McCall and Kieran Tierney as examples of proud Scotsmen born outside the country.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Hanley and Ralston were both absolutely outstanding in Athens on Thursday night. Lack of first team football didnt seem to impede either of them then.

Max Johnstone has been a bit part player for Sturm Graz. Hardly a first team regular. I rate him and I would have liked to see him given his chance last night. I would have reverted to a back 3 with Tierney available again and Ralston not suited to the RWB role.

It would have been a risk either way. But for me the way the second half panned out in Athens, we should have offered Greece a different test.

Thats on Clarke.

I agree those two were excellent in Athens. But two full games in four days was a step too far for both of them. They were done by half time and it showed second half. Clarke did nothing to help them

Max J did originally struggle to get a start with Sturm Graz. That's true.  But he is far from a bit part player now. He has been first choice for most of 2025. In the League and CL. The only games he missed this year were down to injury.

[grizzlyg]

2 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

Okay, I'll assume that you could have worded your opinion better as you mentioned only Miller as an example. I agree that not all of those with Scottish ancestry are necessarily fully committed to Scotland. However, being born outside of Scotland (like myself) doesn't automatically make someone not Scottish. I'll give you Richard Gough, Andy Goram, Stuart McCall and Kieran Tierney as examples of proud Scotsmen born outside the country.

Agree totally with that bud.  For me it's country of birth or one or both parents being Scottish.  It's the grandparent rule I don't agree with.  My grandfather was English and lovely man but no way did I feel affinity to play for them. Just my opinion but name me one player under grandparent rule who actually done a job for Scotland? James morrison and possibly Liam cooper

[grizzlyg]

2 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

Okay, I'll assume that you could have worded your opinion better as you mentioned only Miller as an example. I agree that not all of those with Scottish ancestry are necessarily fully committed to Scotland. However, being born outside of Scotland (like myself) doesn't automatically make someone not Scottish. I'll give you Richard Gough, Andy Goram, Stuart McCall and Kieran Tierney as examples of proud Scotsmen born outside the country.

With parent rule my only grievance is with Angus Gunn.  England u21, twice turned Scotland down yet spookily the week after Craig Gordon had double leg break he made himself available.  Clarke should have hunted him

[joewarkfanclub]

14 hours ago, dennyc said:

I agree those two were excellent in Athens. But two full games in four days was a step too far for both of them. They were done by half time and it showed second half. Clarke did nothing to help them

I dont disagree.

As I said, I would have played Tierney in a 3 and Max instead of Ralston. Just to get some pace back into the side and give Greece something different to think about. I probably wouldnt have dropped Ferguson and I might have been tempted to put Hirst up top with Adams to give him some support. All decisions Clarke could have made differently.

It just annoys me that when Scotland lose folk start scapegoating players like Hanley and Ralston who give everything to the cause, when there are others who were just as poor and make just as many mistakes.

PS. To turn this back to Motherwell players, Miller will undoubtedly get his chance in the June friendlies. There was just too much riding on this camp for it to happen unless the circumstances had panned out different.

[Kmcalpin]

21 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

PS. To turn this back to Motherwell players, Miller will undoubtedly get his chance in the June friendlies. There was just too much riding on this camp for it to happen unless the circumstances had panned out different.

I agree with most of what you usually say Joe, but not over this. That said, I would not have started Miller for the reasons you state ie. too much at stake. However at some point late on in the game, we could debate the precise time, when it was clear to all and sundry that we weren't going to win or even draw the tie. Miller should have been introduced and given his first cap. Just 5 or 10 minutes. His first chance to play for the full team, play at a Hampden international, get used to the international stage, whatever. The lad could have beee told something along the lines of "The ties lost, just go out and savour the occasion." However that opportunity was missed due to a safety first risk averse manager. 

Thats one of the reasons we haven't progressed at international level for decades and won't do so for years to come. Our youths are being mismanaged. 

[Stuwell2]

Although I’d like to have seen Miller get a cap I’m actually quite happy that he never, being on the bench listening to the fans booing the team was probably bad but for his memory of his first cap I’d rather he came on to a more mellow crowd than clapped and cheered him on 

[weeyin]

Clarke doesn't exactly have a stellar track record of giving new caps even in friendlies.

Meanwhile the U21s are getting gubbed 6 - 1 by Iceland as Gemmill continues his stellar youth coaching career.

[joewarkfanclub]

5 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I agree with most of what you usually say Joe, but not over this. That said, I would not have started Miller for the reasons you state ie. too much at stake. However at some point late on in the game, we could debate the precise time, when it was clear to all and sundry that we weren't going to win or even draw the tie. Miller should have been introduced and given his first cap. Just 5 or 10 minutes. His first chance to play for the full team, play at a Hampden international, get used to the international stage, whatever. The lad could have beee told something along the lines of "The ties lost, just go out and savour the occasion." However that opportunity was missed due to a safety first risk averse manager. 

Thats one of the reasons we haven't progressed at international level for decades and won't do so for years to come. Our youths are being mismanaged. 

I dont think it was the right circumstances.

Regardless of the fact that Clarke would have still been hoping for a miracle right to the death, putting him on in, what was by then, a totally unbalanced team getting the runaround wouldnt have been fair to the boy at all. What chance would he have to shine?

Play him from the start against Lichtenstein and/or Iceland alongside some experienced midfielders and give him the best chance to show what he can do.

Just my opinion mind.....

[Spiderpig]

27 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I dont think it was the right circumstances.

Regardless of the fact that Clarke would have still been hoping for a miracle right to the death, putting him on in, what was by then, a totally unbalanced team getting the runaround wouldnt have been fair to the boy at all. What chance would he have to shine?

Play him from the start against Lichtenstein and/or Iceland alongside some experienced midfielders and give him the best chance to show what he can do.

Just my opinion mind.....

Clarke  has previous for filling squads with players he has no intention of giving any game time to. The boy that scored the 2nd goal for Greece was 17  ffs if they are considered good enough to be selected they should be played.

As has been mentioned in other posts the promising young players in Scotland have been badly coached and developed for years,by successive regimes

Some of these guys are regular starters for their respective teams, but get dumped in the nonsense that is the u21 set up, if they have the ability get them in the full squad and then maybe we could build a team for the future, instead of sticking with the so called experienced dross that constantly under performs year after year.

[dennyc]

6 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

 

As I said, I would have played Tierney in a 3 and Max instead of Ralston. Just to get some pace back into the side and give Greece something different to think about. I probably wouldnt have dropped Ferguson and I might have been tempted to put Hirst up top with Adams to give him some support. All decisions Clarke could have made differently.

 

 

Exactly the set up I was hoping for as well. For the reasons already covered. Adams gets slaughtered at times but exactly how much support does he get up front? Might not be world class but game  after game he runs himself ragged in the hope that McGinn and McTominey can push forward to help him. Seems a bit one dimensional from Clarke.....and predictable.  Pretty sure we could have put more pressure on Greece by playing two recognised strikers. Qualification criteria aside, I would like to have seen Conway ahead of Hirst. Although both are scoring for their Clubs. 

I also agree that some players appear to be able to do no wrong. Whereas others do a great job, always give their all, but get unwarranted abuse when results don't pan out. A bit like MFC in truth.

I still believe Clarke is well beyond his sell by date. Germany convinced me of that and, despite him suggesting he would reassess his approach, he is as negative, uninspiring and resistant to change as ever. 

[numpty]

22 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

The boy that scored the 2nd goal for Greece was 17

And later that same evening, so was this one.

[joewarkfanclub]

41 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Clarke  has previous for filling squads with players he has no intention of giving any game time to. The boy that scored the 2nd goal for Greece was 17  ffs if they are considered good enough to be selected they should be played.

As has been mentioned in other posts the promising young players in Scotland have been badly coached and developed for years,by successive regimes

Some of these guys are regular starters for their respective teams, but get dumped in the nonsense that is the u21 set up, if they have the ability get them in the full squad and then maybe we could build a team for the future, instead of sticking with the so called experienced dross that constantly under performs year after year.

Your comparing apples with oranges.

The 17 year old greek was a winger.

Clarke started Doak at 18 years old on the wing in the Nations league on the wing to some success.

Miller is up against Gilmour, McTominay, McGinn, Christie and Ferguson for a start.

I get that McLean started both games and folks will point to that, but he captains Norwich in the Championship and is highly experienced, not to mention under rated.

Do we really think Lennon is ahead of any of these guys right now?

The boy has a great future ahead of him and will have a great career. But lets be realistic about our expectations and not just react to what was undoubtedly a poor performance.....

[wellsince75]

14 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Your comparing apples with oranges.

The 17 year old greek was a winger.

Clarke started Doak at 18 years old on the wing in the Nations league on the wing to some success.

Miller is up against Gilmour, McTominay, McGinn, Christie and Ferguson for a start.

I get that McLean started both games and folks will point to that, but he captains Norwich in the Championship and is highly experienced, not to mention under rated.

Do we really think Lennon is ahead of any of these guys right now?

The boy has a great future ahead of him and will have a great career. But lets be realistic about our expectations and not just react to what was undoubtedly a poor performance.....

This is the key point - the one area Scotland are relatively strong is midfield. 

Had Miller been a promising defender/striker I suspect he'd have been given his chance irrespective of age/who he plays for.  Overall fabulous for him to be called up to the first squad at 18.