International Players Thread

[ropy]

7 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I agree with most of what you usually say Joe, but not over this. That said, I would not have started Miller for the reasons you state ie. too much at stake. However at some point late on in the game, we could debate the precise time, when it was clear to all and sundry that we weren't going to win or even draw the tie. Miller should have been introduced and given his first cap. Just 5 or 10 minutes. His first chance to play for the full team, play at a Hampden international, get used to the international stage, whatever. The lad could have beee told something along the lines of "The ties lost, just go out and savour the occasion." However that opportunity was missed due to a safety first risk averse manager. 

Thats one of the reasons we haven't progressed at international level for decades and won't do so for years to come. Our youths are being mismanaged. 

Wilson got that opportunity which was probably a more sensible change at the time.

[joewarkfanclub]

4 minutes ago, ropy said:

Wilson got that opportunity which was probably a more sensible change at the time.

As did Max Johnston in Athens.....

[weeyin]

He's better than Kenny McLean, though,

[Spiderpig]

3 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Your comparing apples with oranges.

The 17 year old greek was a winger.

It's irrelevant what position he plays he could have been a striker, defender, keeper etc the point is he's 17, considered good enough for international football and was played, that does not happen if you are Scottish at least not under Clarke.

Greece had a 17yo winger scoring, Spain had a 17yo striker scoring, Scotland had alleged experienced duds not scoring and under performing again and we wonder why we get relegated.

[joewarkfanclub]

35 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

It's irrelevant what position he plays he could have been a striker, defender, keeper etc the point is he's 17, considered good enough for international football and was played, that does not happen if you are Scottish at least not under Clarke.

Greece had a 17yo winger scoring, Spain had a 17yo striker scoring, Scotland had alleged experienced duds not scoring and under performing again and we wonder why we get relegated.

Its not irrelevant.

Far less risk playing a young winger than a player right in the centre of the park.

The winger has the freedom to take players on and if they lose it, its not going to be in a area where you can be hurt.

Totally different situation if your no.6 does the same.

You also ignored the competition for places. Unless you are calling Gilmour, McTominay, McGinn, Christie and Ferguson duds.

In addition to Doak, Clarke has also thrown in Hickey, Patterson, Conway and now Johnston and Wilson.

The idea that he doesnt play young talent is a myth.

 

[Stuwell2]

Clarke’s attitude to football management is the same as Kettlewell’s. The man has an inability to change things until it to late and then it’s throw the kitchen sink at the lost cause. 
After watching the second half in Athens it was clear that a back four was not going to work, I’d have went for three central defenders, MJ right wingback and AR or KT left wingback with the other playing on the left of the three defenders. 

[wellfan]

Gemmill and Clarke only retain their jobs because those who run the SFA are too insular and too stupid to see beyond their own four walls. 

[Spiderpig]

54 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Gemmill and Clarke only retain their jobs because those who run the SFA are too insular and too stupid to see beyond their own four walls. 

Correct, far more concerned with the expense paid trips abroad, Uefa and Fifa committee posts and their own SFA posts etc than getting a proper development structure in place to actually improve the national team.

[wellfan]

If you go back through this topic, you’ll see that the majority of us have been making the same comments about Clarke, Gemmill and the SFA for the past couple of years. And they’re not uncommon comments amongst fans of Scottish football. It’s utterly infuriating. It’s a situation that will likely take a vast protest at Hampden led by the Tartan Army before the jobs-for-the-boys cabal are finally ousted. 

[numpty]

31 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Correct, far more concerned with the expense paid trips abroad, Uefa and Fifa committee posts and their own SFA posts etc than getting a proper development structure in place to actually improve the national team.

Which is daft, because they'd get even more of those if they actually improved the national team.

[Kmcalpin]

20 hours ago, weeyin said:

Meanwhile the U21s are getting gubbed 6 - 1 by Iceland as Gemmill continues his stellar youth coaching career.

This should set the alarm bells ringing at SFA HQ, but won't. This is our next generation of talent, so my expectations for the full international side over the next decade are zero. 

[weeyin]

It's not the trips abroad that are the problem. They don't want to upset the Old Firm by shaking up the current development structure and making things a bit more equal across the board.

Last thing Rangers and Celtic want is stronger competition from the wee teams.

[joewarkfanclub]

8 hours ago, Stuwell2 said:

Clarke’s attitude to football management is the same as Kettlewell’s. The man has an inability to change things until it to late and then it’s throw the kitchen sink at the lost cause. 
After watching the second half in Athens it was clear that a back four was not going to work, I’d have went for three central defenders, MJ right wingback and AR or KT left wingback with the other playing on the left of the three defenders. 

I agree with most of that.

He should have changed away from 3 at the back during the Euros when KT got injured. We would still have had difficulties given we were already without Doak, Hickey and Patterson for pace and width, but he compounded it by playing an extra centre half instead of bolstering the midfield.

He 100% should have changed back after the second half in Athens, with KT fit and available, and no Doak.

[joewarkfanclub]

2 hours ago, wellfan said:

Gemmill and Clarke only retain their jobs because those who run the SFA are too insular and too stupid to see beyond their own four walls. 

Not sure thats true.

Finances limit whats available and again its the risk v reward scenario.

Do you fire a guy thats got you to 2 major finals and a World Cup play off in the hope you can get someone better?

Gemmell should be nowhere near the U21s though. A proper progressive youth coach shouldnt be beyond the SFAs finances and there is no risk attached to making a change there as he has been generally shite.

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

If you go back through this topic, you’ll see that the majority of us have been making the same comments about Clarke, Gemmill and the SFA for the past couple of years. And they’re not uncommon comments amongst fans of Scottish football. It’s utterly infuriating. It’s a situation that will likely take a vast protest at Hampden led by the Tartan Army before the jobs-for-the-boys cabal are finally ousted. 

You hear it all the time on Scotland trips as well, and theres nothing wrong with voicing the opinion that you want the national team to do better.

Clarke is a cautious manager and his teams can be negative no doubt. Sometimes too negative. But see my previous post re risk v reward.

I was looking at clips this morning of our game v Slovenia at Hampden in 2017 and there are large swathes of empty seats. Thats no longer the case under Clarke primarily due to his ability to get us winning games, especially at home. 

The SFA could sack him before the World Cup Qualifiers, but they wont because he has proved he can win games and put bums on seats.

He will either qualify us for the World Cup and they will be vindicated. Or he will fail and he will be gone by November as his contract expires with our elimination.

I re-iterate though, Gemmill should be gone. His teams dont even play the same style as the first team. That should be a pre-requisite to ready players to step up.

[weeyin]

You forgot the option where, like the Euros, he qualifies and then plays horrible tactics that see us fail worse than miserably - also like the Euros.

Quite honestly, there are so many teams that qualify for the World Cup now, getting to the finals is barely a pass mark.

[mio]

To be honest, I’d have preferred we didn’t qualify than turn up and embarrass ourselves at tournaments. The way we played in those 2 tournaments was disgraceful and we were a laughing stock. 

The whole world recognises us as a team who play like Wimbledon in the 1980s.
 

[wellfan]

2 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I re-iterate though, Gemmill should be gone. His teams dont even play the same style as the first team. That should be a pre-requisite to ready players to step up.

I mentioned that on this thread a year or two ago. The disconnect between the U21s and A squad is vast and epitomises one of the major issues we have with enabling better pathways for progression. To me it suggests, and it’s what I’ve said before, that each squad is managed as its own little fiefdom, which is complete madness for international football. We have zero strategic approach to bettering ourselves as a footballing nation on the international stage. 

[wellfan]

3 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

He will either qualify us for the World Cup and they will be vindicated. Or he will fail and he will be gone by November as his contract expires with our elimination.

Or the other scenario is that we qualify for the World Cup, like the Euros, and shite the bed again, but on a global stage this time. As others have suggested, my view is that qualification should now be the bare minimum expected and not the main measure of success for a Scotland manager. 

[joewarkfanclub]

30 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Or the other scenario is that we qualify for the World Cup, like the Euros, and shite the bed again, but on a global stage this time. As others have suggested, my view is that qualification should now be the bare minimum expected and not the main measure of success for a Scotland manager. 

Qualification would be great. But if we went out in the same manner as the 2 previous qualifications then the result should be the same.

We actually discussed this away in Greece. I think everyone would like  to see us play more adventurously. A manager with a different outlook would help. But I think we are still a few players short of being able to do that competitively anyway.

We certainly need to find a good striker, a couple of good centre halves (Souttar if he could stay fit would make it one) and a new goalkeeper. 

We talked about Will Sagnol, Bielsa and even big Ange as the kind of managers we would like. How realistic any of them are on the money the SFA can pay is another matter.

I guess Wimmer is the perfect proof of someone we have never heard of being able to do far more with the same players though (albeit still early days) so maybe there is someone out there on our budget.....

[joewarkfanclub]

3 hours ago, weeyin said:

You forgot the option where, like the Euros, he qualifies and then plays horrible tactics that see us fail worse than miserably - also like the Euros.

Quite honestly, there are so many teams that qualify for the World Cup now, getting to the finals is barely a pass mark.

There are a lot of teams at the World Cup, but its statistically harder for European teams to qualify now due to the way the extra teams have been distributed through the other federations. Qualifying for the World Cup would be a much bigger achievement for Clarke than the 2 Euros.

I agree though, Ive no great desire to see us fail miserably again when we get there.....

[wellfan]

17 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Qualification would be great. But if we went out in the same manner as the 2 previous qualifications then the result should be the same.

We actually discussed this away in Greece. I think everyone would like  to see us play more adventurously. A manager with a different outlook would help. But I think we are still a few players short of being able to do that competitively anyway.

We certainly need to find a good striker, a couple of good centre halves (Souttar if he could stay fit would make it one) and a new goalkeeper. 

We talked about Will Sagnol, Bielsa and even big Ange as the kind of managers we would like. How realistic any of them are on the money the SFA can pay is another matter.

I guess Wimmer is the perfect proof of someone we have never heard of being able to do far more with the same players though (albeit still early days) so maybe there is someone out there on our budget.....

The writing is on the wall and has been for some time. He's either replaced now or in the not too distant future. It's all getting a bit Kettlewelly. 

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

The writing is on the wall and has been for some time. He's either replaced now or in the not too distant future. It's all getting a bit Kettlewelly. 

I guess every manager has their shelve life.

For me, we are back where we were after the Euros.

He had earned the right to look at things and see if he could re-invent the team.

He did that by changing to 4-2-3-1 and we ended up putting in some really good performances in Nations League A.

Unfortunately, he didnt recognise the warning signals of the 2nd half on Thursday, so we are back to the drawing board.......

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I guess every manager has their shelve life.

For me, we are back where we were after the Euros.

He had earned the right to look at things and see if he could re-invent the team.

He did that by changing to 4-2-3-1 and we ended up putting in some really good performances in Nations League A.

Unfortunately, he didnt recognise the warning signals of the 2nd half on Thursday, so we are back to the drawing board.......

Since we qualified for the Euros in November 2023. Scotland have won 4 of 15 games,  including a 2-0 victory over Gibraltar in a friendly on neutral ground. If my maths is correct?

Our win in Greece counted for nothing given the result on Sunday.  We have won only one match at home since we beat Georgia in June 2023. Clarke did earn the right to take us to the Euros but the signs of decline were pretty evident long before a ball was kicked in that tournament. And the build up to Germany did not suggest Clarke had any answers. He should have gone as soon as the final whistle was blown against Hungary. The fans who travel all over Europe to support the team have been sold short for a good while. Good fun though those trips may be. 

You said earlier that it was a myth that Clarke did not give youth a chance. Since 2021 (Gilmour, Patterson, Hickey) I can only think of Doak that has been introduced and given meaningful game time. Sure he may have included Conway, Johnston, Doig, Wilson, Miller in recent squads but how many minutes have those youngsters actually spent on the pitch? Conway did not get one minute on the pitch at the Euros, even when we were minus our first choice striker and desperate for goals. Exactly the same as happened to Turnbull in the Euros hosted by England. Clarke has history.

Even more senior in form players were ignored by Clarke. How long did it take for him to select Ferguson, Gauld, Shankland despite how well they were performing at club level. Not all of them performed well I accept, but they were long overdue their chance. Instead Clarke consistently selected players who were not first choice at their clubs. In fairness he did say his strategy was to build a squad of senior players and stick with them.

That said, Clarke's record looks magnificent in comparison to that of Gemmill with the U21s. Since being appointed in 2016 he has failed to qualify for  a tournament. 5 attempts. 17 wins in 48 competitive games. Most recent friendly. Scotland 1 Iceland 6. And today he threw his players under the bus.  How on earth is he still regarded by the powers that be as the man for the job? Prior to the U21s, He had charge of the U17s for 2 years. A job for life?.

In my opinion Wellfan is spot on. It is well beyond time for change.....at both levels. Hopefully we can look beyond the UK as a fresh approach is required from top to bottom. I honestly believe we have the best pool of players we have had for decades. But it seems to me that Clarke....and Gemmill....are far more focused on not losing than winning. How is that panning out?

 

 

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

Since we qualified for the Euros in November 2023. Scotland have won 4 of 15 games,  including a 2-0 victory over Gibraltar in a friendly on neutral ground. If my maths is correct?

Our win in Greece counted for nothing given the result on Sunday.  We have won only one match at home since we beat Georgia in June 2023. Clarke did earn the right to take us to the Euros but the signs of decline were pretty evident long before a ball was kicked in that tournament. And the build up to Germany did not suggest Clarke had any answers. He should have gone as soon as the final whistle was blown against Hungary. The fans who travel all over Europe to support the team have been sold short for a good while. Good fun though those trips may be. 

You said earlier that it was a myth that Clarke did not give youth a chance. Since 2021 (Gilmour, Patterson, Hickey) I can only think of Doak that has been introduced and given meaningful game time. Sure he may have included Conway, Johnston, Doig, Wilson, Miller in recent squads but how many minutes have those youngsters actually spent on the pitch? Conway did not get one minute on the pitch at the Euros, even when we were minus our first choice striker and desperate for goals. Exactly the same as happened to Turnbull in the Euros hosted by England. Clarke has history.

Even more senior in form players were ignored by Clarke. How long did it take for him to select Ferguson, Gauld, Shankland despite how well they were performing at club level. Not all of them performed well I accept, but they were long overdue their chance. Instead Clarke consistently selected players who were not first choice at their clubs. In fairness he did say his strategy was to build a squad of senior players and stick with them.

That said, Clarke's record looks magnificent in comparison to that of Gemmill with the U21s. Since being appointed in 2016 he has failed to qualify for  a tournament. 5 attempts. 17 wins in 48 competitive games. Most recent friendly. Scotland 1 Iceland 6. And today he threw his players under the bus.  How on earth is he still regarded by the powers that be as the man for the job? Prior to the U21s, He had charge of the U17s for 2 years. A job for life?.

In my opinion Wellfan is spot on. It is well beyond time for change.....at both levels. Hopefully we can look beyond the UK as a fresh approach is required from top to bottom. I honestly believe we have the best pool of players we have had for decades. But it seems to me that Clarke....and Gemmill....are far more focused on not losing than winning. How is that panning out?

 

 

I totally understand and accept your argument. 

What I would say is that the 4/15 stat that is used to beat him with requires some perspective attached given who we played in those games. (and how we performed in the Nations League).  Only the N.Ireland home game would be one we should be expected to win.

A bit like Kettlewell, Im not calling for Clarke to go, but I do see his deficiencies, so I wouldnt be devestated if he left.

He isnt getting sacked before the World Cup though. So onwards we go......