Motherwell v Rangers 31/10/2021

['WellMagic!]

Found out today, or our lack ran out. 

Think back to the Aberdeen game, we won of course, but they missed heaps of chances. The same happened against Rangers at Ibrox, and Ross County at FP. It was a matter of time before we took a skelping. Thank fuck our centre halves are capable or it could have been much, much worse. Ojala, Johansen and Mugabi (bar a few dodgy moments) all seem like good players who read the game well, it's the fullback and midfield where we fall extremely short. I don't think Goss is the answer, and Slattery has been poor the last few games. O'Hara and Grimshaw are nothing more than hardworking utility players. 

Not sure where we go from here, but I can't see Alexander changing his tactics. I think GA will stick with a 433 with us defending the penalty box for large periods of the game. It's painful to watch, even when we're winning. I'm really undecided about Alexander. I like his passion and I thought he was making us steely and hard to beat, but aside from the opening game of the season against Hibs, the performances have been hard to watch. The possession we are happy to give us is frightening, and it seems like a blatant tactical choice from GA. 

Roberts, Watt, Wooley and KVV are all good in the air, but with McGinley and SOD having extremely poor distribution, I fear we're on a hiding to nothing. 

[Pronounced Kenyrd Skunyrd]

Still raging after that same old and predictable humiliation today. Watching Roma v Milan just now and it crossed my mind that Mourinho’s Roma were recently hammered 6-1 by Norwegian minnows Bodo/Glimt so it can happen to any team anytime, anywhere!

[MJC]

5 minutes ago, Pronounced Kenyrd Skunyrd said:

Still raging after that same old and predictable humiliation today. Watching Roma v Milan just now and it crossed my mind that Mourinho’s Roma were recently hammered 6-1 by Norwegian minnows Bodo/Glimt so it can happen to any team anytime, anywhere!

Except it happens to us many times, at Fir Park or Ibrox/Parkhead. 
 

Our record against the Old Firm is absolutely disgusting. No league win against Rangers for almost nineteen years, no win against Celtic for almost six and we’ve lost our last nine straight meetings with them.

And outright hammerings against both of them are becoming more and more common. We lost 6-1 today, 5-1 last season v. Rangers and 3-0 and 4-1 v Celtic in 20/21. The season before that we lost 5-2 and 4-0 against Celtic and in 18/19 we lost 7-1 and 3-0 against Rangers.

We are more often than not beaten before a ball is kicked against them nowadays and it is mostly just shrugged off by the club and support with “ah well, big teams, big budgets, oor wee club can’t compete, bring on the diddy teams”.

When you think back to the good old 1990s when we used to fancy ourselves against them both and very often got results. Nowadays we’re lucky to just lose by three.

[David]

3 hours ago, gazzetta19 said:

Absolutely dire today. Alexander's sole objective is to secure enough points to stay in the league. If we sneak into the Top 6 - bonus. It is going to be a helluva bumpy road this season with zero football played. Is that going to be acceptable to the majority of Well fans? Not sure...

That's the objective of any manager we bring in, isn't it? 

As for playing football the right way? If it happens then great, but my main concern is ensuring our premier league status first of all, then hopefully pushing on for top six if we can. Ross County have had plenty of plaudits for their football, and they're currently six points from safety at the bottom of the table.

I've seen Livi mentioned as well, having taken points off Celtic. Again, where are they in the league? I'd take not being relegated, some top six (and even top four) finishes, and a few European games over beating either of the Old Firm in the league over recent years.

[Coolhandluc]

Agree with all the comments re formation and tactics. Also worrying is that most of new signings are on long term contracts. Not an expert, but surely more difficult to move on if they don’t work out 

[GazzyB]

I only saw the second half and haven’t read the match thread but I would imagine I’m echoing everyone else here by saying that we were fucking murder. Sick to my back teeth of getting scudded off of Rangers.

 

Alexander needs to ring the changes for next week, because the last few performances have been diabolical.

[Yorkyred]

11 hours ago, wellsince75 said:

I'm not sold that's his problem.

He has a win rate of +40% as a manager but hasn't lasted more than 2 years at most clubs he's been at.

I suspect  he has a proven method that get's decent results (+40% win) but dreadful to watch and eventually clubs get rid of them as fans can only last so long without losing their shit with anti football. 

He had a +48% win rate at Salford and on paper it looked very harsh to get rid of him.  With this style of play it's understandable why it doesn't last beyond a couple of seasons. 

He was though of as negative at Salford which did not help him but even they now say they made a mistake in sacking him. In they end for the vast majority of supporters if the team is winning they carry on attending, Robinson’s football was poor but there is nothing to suggest the attendances suffered because of it. I’m guessing if the team stay around midtable or even slightly lower his job will be safe regardless of the football the same way  it was under Robinson. As others have said it’s also very early in his managerial career with us and some of his signings have played very few games  due to injuries. I don’t like the formation or the football ethos but in the end as always it will come down to results. 

[Lan_Lad]

17 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

Time will tell but I believe we have more than enough quality to finish mid table. It’s Alexander’s job to get the best out of those players.

I think so too, in fact I think the league has shaken out early this season. I feel there's a possibility the table wont look too much different come the end of the season. This game doesn't mean anything, I know there's a lot of talk about them being off form recently but that's only relative. Even if we had beaten them they would still be top of the league, how off form is that?

[Winning by Name]

15 hours ago, gazzetta19 said:

Absolutely dire today. Alexander's sole objective is to secure enough points to stay in the league. If we sneak into the Top 6 - bonus. It is going to be a helluva bumpy road this season with zero football played. Is that going to be acceptable to the majority of Well fans? Not sure...

I think realistically staying in league is target with top 6 a bonus so I dont really see what is wrong with that. If we could play like the 1970 Brazil world cup team I am sure we would.

[numpty]

3 minutes ago, Winning by Name said:

I think realistically staying in league is target with top 6 a bonus so I dont really see what is wrong with that. If we could play like the 1970 Brazil world cup team I am sure we would.

There's nothing wrong with it per se, but if the entertainment value continues to be zero with no hint of improvement around the corner, then they'll be doing it in front of empty stands before long.

[grizzlyg]

Watched highlights (I must be mad),  needs to be a reaction for Aberdeen game.  And not wanting to single out players but for his own sake McGinley needs to be benched for Carroll,  who I don't think is much better.  I also wonder what game GA was watching,  thinks we were good first 42 mins and turning point was red card!!!,  game was well over by then.  

[Big Stall]

The style is just eye bleeding to watch.  It was horrendous letting St Mirren have the same freedom mid week but allowing higher class players from Rangers to do what they want and invite them to attack us at will is tactical suicide.

What I really don't get is the fact that we looked a handy, expansive, attacking team against Hibs. Yes we lost out late in the game but we went toe to toe with them and made it a great match. Since then, he has retrenched us back, let the opposition do what they want and hope we can defend our box. We have been sussed out bigtime now.

AS someone said higher up the thread, we do actually seem to have a decent squad, probably better than for a good few years. GA needs to work out a way of getting a tune out of them.

 

 

 

[AllyMax]

1 hour ago, Big Stall said:

The style is just eye bleeding to watch.  It was horrendous letting St Mirren have the same freedom mid week but allowing higher class players from Rangers to do what they want and invite them to attack us at will is tactical suicide.

What I really don't get is the fact that we looked a handy, expansive, attacking team against Hibs. Yes we lost out late in the game but we went toe to toe with them and made it a great match. Since then, he has retrenched us back, let the opposition do what they want and hope we can defend our box. We have been sussed out bigtime now.

AS someone said higher up the thread, we do actually seem to have a decent squad, probably better than for a good few years. GA needs to work out a way of getting a tune out of them.

To me it's worse than eye bleeding to watch as we're off the ball for 70% of most games. When we do get the ball, we've more often than not lost it in 2 or 3 passes if we can't get the ball to Watt to draw a foul !! Even in the games we won, Aberdeen for example, out possessed us massively and had multiple shots on goal. We were just lucky that their finishing was shite.  Even although we won 4 games earlier in the season, we didn't dominate any of these games and were at best 50/50 for possession in one of them. You can't just allow teams to play through you and do all your defending in your own box. You might get lucky sometimes but in general, you're going to get scudded and you're going to get murdered by teams that can finish. This style of allowing teams to do what they want until they get in our box has been on show, even against the lower league clubs in the league cup.  Have you ever seen another team invite wave after wave of pressure in every game ???

 

 

 

 

[gaz7]

13 hours ago, MJC_mkII said:

Except it happens to us many times, at Fir Park or Ibrox/Parkhead. 
 

Our record against the Old Firm is absolutely disgusting. No league win against Rangers for almost nineteen years, no win against Celtic for almost six and we’ve lost our last nine straight meetings with them.

And outright hammerings against both of them are becoming more and more common. We lost 6-1 today, 5-1 last season v. Rangers and 3-0 and 4-1 v Celtic in 20/21. The season before that we lost 5-2 and 4-0 against Celtic and in 18/19 we lost 7-1 and 3-0 against Rangers.

We are more often than not beaten before a ball is kicked against them nowadays and it is mostly just shrugged off by the club and support with “ah well, big teams, big budgets, oor wee club can’t compete, bring on the diddy teams”.

When you think back to the good old 1990s when we used to fancy ourselves against them both and very often got results. Nowadays we’re lucky to just lose by three.

My thought as well MJC. Totally pissed off with yesterday and long for the days when we knew we would give them a game. Im going to make some excuses here and I will likely get slagged off but the players have to believe they can beat them which I dont think is the case and tony watt chance at 1-0 was massive and also when watt cut inside v arfield a 1-0 he could have went down and gave ref a decision to make. Rangers are more streetwise also as in 2nd half we were attacking down right and bassey was injured which meant we had extra numbers but he stayed down and walsh stopped the game, he got back up after physio on and running about no bother. Small things but that is what we needed after they scored their 1st we needed a bit of gamesmanship from someone.

Odonnell and mcginley getting a lot of stick on here but all game tavernier and bassey had the whole side they were on to theirselves, why was  our forward players one on each side not told to mark them if they attacked. Mcginley and goss in 1st half were dealing with tavernier aribo and arfield every attack and 3 v 2 is only going to be one winner. Our forwards do not track their opposing fullbacks and that imo is big issue and why we get overrun in midfield. SOD and mcginley are also really lacking in confidence that was shown in a few breakaways where they mucked up simple passes.

2015 seems a lifetime ago and with the players we have and tactics used its hard to see any light at end of tunnel. Only pass marks yesterday were bevis,sol.ohara and i also thought shields done ok in the sense he was busy but that should be a given and not something you get praise for.

I also understand people wanting rid of Alexander because the football is dire and I dont see him adjusting the team for certain games. Everyone knows rangers full backs are their main creative force but we let them get on with it with no one tracking them. Good managers see the main threat in opposition and plan something to stop it. I can maybe be judged as happy clapper as I try to always see the positive but its hard last night and this morning.

Anyway back to work and Aberdeen at weekend and heres hoping we see a big reaction.

[MJC]

I know the point has been made that you don’t get any bonus points for beating the Old Firm and that’s obviously true. But for a club that doesn’t win trophies, big results against Celtic and/or Rangers are something that was always looked back upon and remembered fondly by Motherwell fans.

Why do we still refer to winning a dead rubber 16 years ago as ‘Skippy Sunday’?

Why do we sing about walking down the “Copland Road and hearing a mighty clamour”?

Or Jamie Dolan day?

Or winning a relegation playoff at the end of one of our worst ever seasons?

Getting wins over the Old Firm are special to our fans, yet nowadays we barely give them a game of it and it’s pathetic. 
 

To think we have supporters in their late teens, early twenties who have never seen us beat Rangers in the league. It’s mental.

[joewarkfanclub]

2 hours ago, Big Stall said:

The style is just eye bleeding to watch.  It was horrendous letting St Mirren have the same freedom mid week but allowing higher class players from Rangers to do what they want and invite them to attack us at will is tactical suicide.

What I really don't get is the fact that we looked a handy, expansive, attacking team against Hibs. Yes we lost out late in the game but we went toe to toe with them and made it a great match. Since then, he has retrenched us back, let the opposition do what they want and hope we can defend our box. We have been sussed out bigtime now.

AS someone said higher up the thread, we do actually seem to have a decent squad, probably better than for a good few years. GA needs to work out a way of getting a tune out of them.

 

 

 

The Hibs game seems such a long time ago.

It was a great game of football and great entertainment and advert for our game.

Even though we lost, I still left the stadium full of hope for the season ahead.

Where is that hope now?

[wellwell91]

34 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

Odonnell and mcginley getting a lot of stick on here but all game tavernier and bassey had the whole side they were on to theirselves, why was  our forward players one on each side not told to mark them if they attacked. 

From a tactical point of view you’ve hit the nail on the head. Everyone and their granny knew before the game that Tavernier and Bassey would bomb forward at every opportunity. With us playing 3 up front the 2 wide players should have been told to track back with them, a hard shift I know but if you want to nullify them it is what was required.

Cannot agree with you on O’Donnell and McGinley, total shite the both of them and have been for weeks. Just look at O’Donnells 1st booking easy ball to him that he somehow manages to miss control and pulls the Ranger player back …… school boy stuff never mind a supposed international footballer. Don’t get me started on McGinley as I’ve said previously he’s a run of the mill jobbing centre half being asked to play at fullback. Look at the 1st goal not a Motherwell player within 15 yards of Tavernier Yip our wide player should be tracking him bur McGinley is marking nothing but space not a Rangers player anywhere near him, so he’s got to see the danger and close him down. As for the 5th goal just doesn’t see the man he’s supposed to be marking and just lets him run in behind him.

yes we have problems in the middle, which I think are our own making by continuing to play 3 in there instead of 4 But I think fullbacks are our biggest problem.

[Spiderpig]

15 minutes ago, MJC_mkII said:

I know the point has been made that you don’t get any bonus points for beating the Old Firm and that’s obviously true. But for a club that doesn’t win trophies, big results against Celtic and/or Rangers are something that was always looked back upon and remembered fondly by Motherwell fans.

Why do we still refer to winning a dead rubber 16 years ago as ‘Skippy Sunday’?

Why do we sing about walking down the “Copland Road and hearing a mighty clamour”?

Or Jamie Dolan day?

Or winning a relegation playoff at the end of one of our worst ever seasons?

Getting wins over the Old Firm are special to our fans, yet nowadays we barely give them a game of it and it’s pathetic. 
 

To think we have supporters in their late teens, early twenties who have never seen us beat Rangers in the league. It’s mental.

On Sunday we played a Rangers team that has lost only 1 league game in their last 50 games ffs the game was over at half time. If they had got bored and eased back and it stayed at 2-1 we might have sneaked an equaliser, but they went for it and ripped us a new one, 6 goals in 50 mins we lost.

In the nearly 19 years since we last beat them in the league we have been close a few times but Sunday was not one of those days. You can analyse our tactics all you want but in the end we  need to hold up our hands and say we were beaten by a far superior team on the day.

The ugly sisters don't usually lose many games in all competitions and every other team in the league will have records just as bad as ours against them, ours will be the worst as we have been a premiership team for the last 30 odd years so we've faced them more.

Any points we take from them are a bonus its on how we play against the other 10 teams that we will  be judged and determine how successful a season we have, thats why the St Mirren game was a big blow 2 points dropped, that would have seen us clear in 5th irrespective of how we did against Rangers. 

[joewarkfanclub]

Its easy to point the finger at McGinley and O'Donnell, but they are being coached to keep a narrow back four and defend their box. When the ball is crossed for the first goal, McGinley is in the position he has been told to be in. However, the cross and finish are top drawer so he has no time to react and get out there. Our midfield and forward line should be dropping back to fill those gaps and preventing such an easy ball, but the entire way we are set up is rotten and exposing our players all over the park.  We have been getting away with it against most of the teams in the league, but the minute you play against a higher standard of opponent your definiencies get found out.

[wellwell91]

9 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Its easy to point the finger at McGinley and O'Donnell, but they are being coached to keep a narrow back four and defend their box. When the ball is crossed for the first goal, McGinley is in the position he has been told to be in. However, the cross and finish are top drawer so he has no time to react and get out there. Our midfield and forward line should be dropping back to fill those gaps and preventing such an easy ball, but the entire way we are set up is rotten and exposing our players all over the park.  We have been getting away with it against most of the teams in the league, but the minute you play against a higher standard of opponent your definiencies get found out.

Yip that is the way we are coached. But surely players have got to adapt to what is happening on the pitch. 
Re the 1st goal yip McGinley comes in narrow but everyone is picked up and he’s marking nothing but space having no effect on the game if he even stayed narrow but stepped out 5 yards he makes it do much harder for Tavernier. Sometime players need to react to what is happening on the pitch.
 

Reading the game I think it’s called

[joewarkfanclub]

12 minutes ago, wellwell91 said:

Yip that is the way we are coached. But surely players have got to adapt to what is happening on the pitch. 
Re the 1st goal yip McGinley comes in narrow but everyone is picked up and he’s marking nothing but space having no effect on the game if he even stayed narrow but stepped out 5 yards he makes it do much harder for Tavernier. Sometime players need to react to what is happening on the pitch.
 

Reading the game I think it’s called

McGinley  needs to stay narrow until the ball is crossed, otherwise he leaves a gap that could expose his centre half.

I agree that once the ball is played he needs to try and react and get out there to block the ball.

However, its hard to react when the quality of the delivery is so good. We got away with it for most of the first half as Rangers delivery was poor. The first 2 good balls they put in we lose 2 goals. Thats the folly of giving up the wide areas.

I accept we have  players who are not on the same level as Rangers, which is why matching them up and going 4-3-3 was madness.

[Well Well]

The players are reading the game but I have seen countless times they have been wanting to move into a certain position and GA going nuts and making them move back. Its especially obvious when we make subs and the guys on the park are continually shouting to the manager and asking him what tactics he wants. The confusion is ridiculous and its not the first time I have seen the players frustrated as they just dont know what the hell GA wants.

[Stuwell2]

Anyone know the 50/50 numbers from yesterday?

[Big Stall]

36 minutes ago, Well Well said:

The players are reading the game but I have seen countless times they have been wanting to move into a certain position and GA going nuts and making them move back. Its especially obvious when we make subs and the guys on the park are continually shouting to the manager and asking him what tactics he wants. The confusion is ridiculous and its not the first time I have seen the players frustrated as they just dont know what the hell GA wants.

 

 

And that is probably the quickest way to lose a dressing room. The players are not daft, they know deep down that we can't sit back and let St Mirren, Rangers and co do what they want , building attack after attack. If we were winning every week they would probably accept it and suck it up, but once we start getting beat regularly then I would expect the players to revolt.

[ZT_1886]

I’m still trying to get my head around who exactly is at fault for the second goal yesterday.

You can see McGinley taking a look behind him and seeing the space Aribo is running into so he panics and doesn’t commit to closing down the ball, allowing the cross to come in, so is it his fault?

On the other hand, if McGinley commits then Tavernier passes the ball to Aribo in a very dangerous position, which up until the goal, was where Rangers best chance came from. Neither Slattery or Goss are anywhere near close enough to Aribo. Does that make it their fault or should Sol come across to take Aribo instead?

Should Kelly save it? It’s a good cross and he heads it away from where Kelly is moving but it’s in the middle of the goal.