Alexander.

[dennyc]

11 hours ago, wunderwell said:

 

 

* Name 5 decent games he's had. Where did he finish in last seasons  votes by fans?

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well.

Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is,  benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out.

As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final.

And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll.

I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

[Haggischomper]

We needed a left back. Alexander signed a right back so now we have two international right backs. The whole preparation for this season has stank to high heaven and now we are trying to get players match fit by playing them in actual league games. It has been a shockingly unprofessional off-season even disregarding the Sligo results. Almost feels like GA was working his ticket but, surely, no professional would do that (apart from Dec)?

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Winning by Name]

11 hours ago, dennyc said:

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well.

Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is,  benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out.

As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final.

And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll.

I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

Great response!

[David]

17 hours ago, dennyc said:

For me most of the fans that wanted SOD dropped never wanted him at the Club in the first place. I'm not going to trawl back but the comments when he signed were out of order. Some even held his supposed liking of Celtic against him. So when he had a dip in form it just played into their narrative. When he had a decent game those fans were noticeably quiet. His winner in Europe some time back as a classic example. So his form was not their main motivation, even when it was poor. When he had a decent game for Scotland those same fans also used that against him.

I suppose the same could be said about Alexander. And, sadly, will no doubt be the case with whoever is next to take the reins at the club. Unless they're a former player who the majority of fans like.

An example of that would be Paul Lambert. I've seen a number of fans saying they'd take him because he was a good player for us. I follow Ipswich Town, and if our fans think Graham Alexander's football was bad, they better hope Lambert never gets the job. At one point with Ipswich Lambert was sitting on 2 wins from 25 games.

18 hours ago, dennyc said:

I think we agree he was probably our best right back whether he was playing or not. We were certainly both supportive of him and thought some of the comments against him were OTT. Where we differ seems to be when it comes to Alexander's part in things. Even when Mugabi was really struggling and becoming a liability out wide, Alexander insisted on sticking with him in that position. Not only on a game by game basis, but also during games when Mugabi was almost pleading to be replaced. And O'Donnell was on the Bench, fit and unused.  When Alexander eventually decided to change things, he ignored SOD and even turned to O'Hara in one game.

Oh, Alexander played a part in things. Where I tend to disagree is this notion in certain areas that Alexander dropped him and didn't bring him back because O'Donnell was reportedly a lone voice standing against the evil, arrogant manager who doesn't know what he's doing. 

I just think he saw, like the rest of us, the errors he was making quite consistently in games last season and thought that he wasn't good enough. Was he right in that assessment? I don't think so, and I certainly don't think he's worse than Mugabi or any of the other players he tried to shoehorn into that position.

But I think it's an honest assessment. And it's not insane to believe that he just didn't rate O'Donnell.

18 hours ago, dennyc said:

So, if O'Donnell was injured why was he on the Bench? If he was not injured why was he ignored when everybody could see Mugabi was struggling. If Alexander did not rate O'Donnell why pick him in the first place, even on the Bench. The logical answer I can come up with was that it was personal between the two.

If there was animosity between the two of them why would he bother picking him at all? Surely having him on the bench suggests that he thought he was worth having as a backup, even if he didn't rate him as highly as some.

Again, I honestly think if Alexander was arrogant and fighting with his own team, dropping people out of spite and so on, he wouldn't have the backing of the captain. Kelly had no reason to come out and say what he did. He didn't have to do it, but he did, which tells you the respect he has for him.

I don't believe Kelly would feel that way if Alexander was the type who was ostracising his team-mates.

I just think he didn't rate Stephen O'Donnell. Which isn't a crazy notion, as a large chunk of our fanbase don't rate him either.

18 hours ago, dennyc said:

Nobody is saying O'Donnell is a world beater. But Alexander's treatment of him was mystifying and in my opinion hurt the team (and Mugabi as an individual) . And to finish it off I believe the signing of McGinn was another attempt at forcing O'Donnell to leave. It clearly was not with the intention of playing both on the right in a formation that just might have gotten the best out of both players.

Oh, absolutely. He signed McGinn to replace O'Donnell. Now, here's a question. What if the next manager comes in and thinks McGinn is a better option than O'Donnell as well? 

[wunderwell]

23 hours ago, dennyc said:

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well.

Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is,  benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out.

As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final.

And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll.

I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

I think we will but this is the last I will say. You clearly have more people agreeing with you as you have the post likes!

How where they not treated the same way? Carroll and McGinley played a merry go round with each other and both ended up starting less games than O'Donnell. I do agree that both individuals more particularly Carroll was at fault for certain goals and he did lose his place like O'Donnell. So how is that not the same? Shields only started 17 matches in a yoyo season, was he treated unfairly? MacGuire was injured for most of the season. Watt was our best player and led us ultimately to 5th dropping him would have been insane.

I don't think I agree that our support on Steelmenonline online are petty enough that if O'Donnell had some form of cracking game the fans would not vote for him. Kelly won man of the match in our last game by a mile where some of his comments may have caused supporters not to vote. I cannot remember O'Donnell having good games. I've seen him be ok but can't recollect better than that. Talking about this Motherwell supporters site and the BBC where one man and his dog voted is not comparable.

It's up to O'Donnell to prove me wrong, if he plays well I'll be the first to acknowledge. There is no grudge to bare. He simply needs to do the business on the pitch.

PS: I agree with every single post David has made, more eloquently put than myself! (but i did use the word eloquently)

[Great Balls of Shire]

On 8/3/2022 at 8:12 PM, dennyc said:

Some even held his supposed liking of Celtic against him

was that the same fans who thought tom boyd, rab mckinnon were great full backs?

[dennyc]

3 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

was that the same fans who thought tom boyd, rab mckinnon were great full backs?

Not at all. I think in those days fans were a bit more rational when it came to certain other teams. Since then sporting dislike has turned to obsessive hatred for some. A blight that sadly affects more than Motherwell. "Tribal" is the word often used.

[Spiderpig]

8 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

was that the same fans who thought tom boyd, rab mckinnon were great full backs?

Boyd and McKinnon were decent full backs in their time, Boyd might be an obnoxious celtic obsessed arsehole these days, but he was a decent player back in the day.

[grizzlyg]

24 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Boyd and McKinnon were decent full backs in their time, Boyd might be an obnoxious celtic obsessed arsehole these days, but he was a decent player back in the day.

Rab McKinnon was one of my favourite ever players, just slightly behind Joe wark as best ever left back 

[wellsince75]

13 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

Rab McKinnon was one of my favourite ever players, just slightly behind Joe wark as best ever left back 

McKinnon was excellent . To be fair we had about 20 years of consecutively good left backs . McKinnon , McMillan and Hammell. 

 

[Kmcalpin]

Whats coming across to me loud and clear now is that Graham Alexander seems to have had an inflexible style of play and that players were instructed to adhere rigidly to it. Many fans like myself were criticising midfield players for example for not supporting the striker(s) or full/wing backs being poor. If I recall corrctly, Onthefringes has made this point several times in the past few months. Its clear now that it wasn't always the fault of the players, but rather the system or instructions they were given. I think Stevie Hammell made a similar point as well. Thats not to say that a manager shouldn't give his players instructions but they should be applicable to the talent he has available and not be overly rigid and inflexible. Maybe we, and I include myself here, have judged  players unfairly?  

[The Sand Dancer]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

Whats coming across to me loud and clear now is that Graham Alexander seems to have had an inflexible style of play and that players were instructed to adhere rigidly to it. Many fans like myself were criticising midfield players for example for not supporting the striker(s) or full/wing backs being poor. If I recall corrctly, Onthefringes has made this point several times in the past few months. Its clear now that it wasn't always the fault of the players, but rather the system or instructions they were given. I think Stevie Hammell made a similar point as well. Thats not to say that a manager shouldn't give his players instructions but they should be applicable to the talent he has available and not be overly rigid and inflexible. Maybe we, and I include myself here, have judged  players unfairly?  

Both Alexander and Robinson before him were typical autocratic managers. They both produced the normal outcome of that style i.e. initial success then medium to long term failure as their methods fail to motivate the players.

Unless we want to continue to "yo yo" between success and failure on a season by season basis then the new manager must have different management style

[grizzlyg]

Watching closing ceremony of commonwealth games last night and I noticed the athletes were walking in a 4 3 3 formation..... then I realised it was coming from the Alexander Stadium!!..... sorry folks

[Spiderpig]

17 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Watching closing ceremony of commonwealth games last night and I noticed the athletes were walking in a 4 3 3 formation..... then I realised it was coming from the Alexander Stadium!!..... sorry folks

  so we need a new manager, a decent left back a holding midfielder,  a prolific striker and now a forum joke teller, that was bad even by your standards.

[grizzlyg]

6 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

  so we need a new manager, a decent left back a holding midfielder,  a prolific striker and now a forum joke teller, that was bad even by your standards.

Sorry pal, Barrel was well scraped with my last attempt!!

[spudmfc]

On 8/3/2022 at 7:12 PM, weeyin said:

It's no coincidence we had struggles with full backs on both sides of the park last season when we had zero cover in the 3-man midfield and the opposition had free rein on the wings.

It was way too easy for teams t play through our lines,beat the half hearted press from the front 3 n then we r out numbered 4 or even 5 t our 3 in midfield,is it any wonder our defence gets left exposed n gets slated as a unit bcos of that, its only just in the last 2 games under hammell hes tried t address that with playing maguire deeper,granted it didnt work but hes seen that is wot we need

[gaz7]

3 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Whats coming across to me loud and clear now is that Graham Alexander seems to have had an inflexible style of play and that players were instructed to adhere rigidly to it. Many fans like myself were criticising midfield players for example for not supporting the striker(s) or full/wing backs being poor. If I recall corrctly, Onthefringes has made this point several times in the past few months. Its clear now that it wasn't always the fault of the players, but rather the system or instructions they were given. I think Stevie Hammell made a similar point as well. Thats not to say that a manager shouldn't give his players instructions but they should be applicable to the talent he has available and not be overly rigid and inflexible. Maybe we, and I include myself here, have judged  players unfairly?  

I was like nearly all wanting change and your 1st point on  being inflexible was apparent since before start of last season .

Whilst we can all see loads of faults in general football terms regarding our teams performance what we need to remember is Alexander seen those players and worked with those players every day.  A guy who had more than 1000 appearances in England mostly in top 2 divisions, 50 international caps and few hundred in management . I'm sure he knows more about football than even our residential guardiolas on here. This is maybe why he had to play the way we did as if we tried a different way then he knew we would be nowhere.

I am now in that camp as I just do not see anyone in midfield or upfront who I think looks competent at spfl level.  Competitive maybe but ability to control and pass a football or take a player on, I just don't see it.

So in summary I actually don't think we were harsh in our criticism of players other than some of the personal name calling at games and on here which is embarrassing. 

If we don't sign at least 1 each of midfielder striker winger and centreback who are better than we have then a long season ahead.

 

[Kmcalpin]

On 8/1/2022 at 10:20 PM, Yabba's Turd said:

We have one of the worst supports in football, no patience and one of the most toxic.

I don't know that we're any worse than most Ian. I've just been reading fan fora for St Johnstone and Dundee United this morning and the level of venom and vitriol amongst sections of their supports is frightening.

[grizzlyg]

5 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I don't know that we're any worse than most Ian. I've just been reading fan fora for St Johnstone and Dundee United this morning and the level of venom and vitriol amongst sections of their supports is frightening.

Yep I agree, every club has a element whose behaviour is embarrassing, but I don't think we are any worse than other teams, though club should always be monitoring it as been a few incidents recently that havent been pleasant, singing at Sligo home game especially, anyhoo hopefully that was a one off...COYW

[El Grew]

10 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I don't know that we're any worse than most Ian. I've just been reading fan fora for St Johnstone and Dundee United this morning and the level of venom and vitriol amongst sections of their supports is frightening.

I’d agree with that.  I think fan sites like this are great but they do afford fans the opportunity to have a rant and vent their feelings almost instantaneously either during or after games when their emotions are running high - not always a good time to be commenting on anything.  

I can remember after a game, whether we’d won or lost, played well or badly the only outlet for comment was in the pub afterwards with your mates. 

[steelman1991]

I’d agree with that.  I think fan sites like this are great but they do afford fans the opportunity to have a rant and vent their feelings almost instantaneously either during or after games when their emotions are running high - not always a good time to be commenting on anything.  
I can remember after a game, whether we’d won or lost, played well or badly the only outlet for comment was in the pub afterwards with your mates. 

And the world was much better for it

[FirParkCornerExile]

12 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I don't know that we're any worse than most Ian. I've just been reading fan fora for St Johnstone and Dundee United this morning and the level of venom and vitriol amongst sections of their supports is frightening.

Exactly there is NOTHING unique about Motherwell fans as supporters they are the same everywhere.

[Yabba's Turd]

2 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Exactly there is NOTHING unique about Motherwell fans as supporters they are the same everywhere.

I beg to differ, when players won't sign for you because of the cretins in the stands, it's a bigger issue than you think.

[FirParkCornerExile]

4 minutes ago, Yabba's Turd said:

I beg to differ, when players won't sign for you because of the cretins in the stands, it's a bigger issue than you think.

You think this kind of thing only happens at Motherwell of all the football clubs in this country ? Nonsence

 

https://www.si.com/soccer/liverpool/news/gini-wijnaldum-reveals-why-he-left-liverpool

[dennyc]

7 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

You think this kind of thing only happens at Motherwell of all the football clubs in this country ? Nonsence

 

https://www.si.com/soccer/liverpool/news/gini-wijnaldum-reveals-why-he-left-liverpool

I take it your not saying it's ok because it also happens elsewhere? What happens at other clubs is irrelevant. If it is the case at Motherwell then it is an issue. An embarrassing and damaging issue.