Ross County v Motherwell 18/1/22

[steelboy]

Just now, Al B said:

Add it to the ridiculous list. It's completely true.

 

The numbers we should be looking at, dealing with, and reacting to, are hospitalisations caused by unpreventable* Covid, ICU admissions caused by unpreventable* Covid, and deaths caused by unpreventable* Covid. They are literally the only statistics that mean anything...and when you imagine how small those numbers are, then it makes a fair chunk of post-vaccine Britain scarier than any pandemic could be.

*By preventable, I mean opted to not be vaccinated.

I don't know about that. The small proportion of over 60s who have chosen not to vaccinated are far less healthy in general than their peers and would be likely to be badly impacted by the virus vaccine or not.

[Welldaft Mk1]

Actually a good debate. Some good reading and excellent posts from Al B. 

I am no fan of the SNP,  but I can understand why they took the decision to have restrictions to protect the NHS and until the data proved otherwise. Was there an element of being different from London and Boris etc. Possibly but if Boris is proved correct it looks like it will be by a bawhair. 

The disappointing element of this is timing. Omicron could have arrived earlier or indeed later. The fact it arrived to coincide with Xmas and New Year makes it terrible for the hospitality industry. Literally their busiest time of year. 

I would expect crowds to return after the 17th but will be interested to see if they go from 500 to full houses. My worry is they come up with a middle ground. Leaving clubs to again manage ballots and tickets and all sorts of nonsense. The other issue is timing. Sport needs to know (you would imagine) early next week and not 2pm on the 17th January to prepare. Leaving it at 500 will lead to a considerable backlash. Is it law ? Could the SPFL tell clubs to allow crowds in. Certainly there will be a confrontation if it is the status quo. 

[Al B]

Here's the most up to date figures available for the home nations. (spoiler alert, it's not 1 in 5).

[Al B]

And the same for each region in England.

I honestly can't see their not being some sort of legal action taken by the hospitality and leisure sector, and if there is, the Government surely can;t have a leg to stand on. Even if they don't accept retrospectively that they were wildly wrong, the official figures are uncontestable proof that restrictions don't make any difference and need to be removed immediately.

Thing is, if they do that, then they have to admit they were put in place wrongly in the first place, which then opens the legal Pandora's Box.

They have utterly and absolutely fucked it, and are being found out. And I've got absolutely no clue who I'm gonna vote for now, and have to re-evaluate whether I even want indepencence when I was a nailed-on supporter before. I wouldn't even let Nicola Sturgeon and her team run a tote sheet let alone my country.

 

[Kmcalpin]

4 hours ago, Al B said:

Firstly I want to say, and you see how ridiculous it is....Looking back now, the memory of us all standing in the street whacking pots with spoons and clapping is absolutely cringe-inducing to the point where I wish I could convince myself I hadn't joined in.

Great post Al.

On the whole I'd say that the NHS has done well with the resources it has had at its disposal and many of its problems are long standing. Like any other organisation though there are very good staff, good staff, average staff, poor staff and very poor staff. That has come directly from family members and others who work for the NHS.  It has coped very well with COVID but poorly with other medical issues. I had cause recently to visit my local hospital for a routine test (with an appointment). I had great trouble actually getting into the building itself as many entrances had been closed off to the public. Had I turned up in a car with someone requiring A & E treatment I don't know what I would have done. 

The overall statistics for total COVID infections to date are likely to be a gross underestimate  for many reasons. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59899547

People are not reporting LFT results for example and other infected individuals are keeping quiet, but I guess that is to be expected. I find the issue of face coverings to be interesting. We go into our local supermarkets and indoor shopping malls and despite their use being obligatory (with limited medical exceptions), many folk just don't bother.  The same applies to public transport.  The same happens at Fir Park. When in your seating area they're not obligatory and thats fair enough. But in enclosed indoor spaces???? Many just aren't bothering. 

The bottom line is that we're just going to have to live with this horrible virus. I don't envy the politicians as they have the hard decisions to make but please just be open with us. Its a fine balance between economy and health. As for advisers - please advise and stop short of speaking for the political decision makers. 

Irrespective of the statistics, the 500 figure needs to be amended or tweaked but that is only one of many wider inconsistencies.

[wellwell91]

11 minutes ago, Al B said:

Here's the most up to date figures available for the home nations.

Think this data is more important than hospitalisation 

Covid-related staff absences at hospitals in England have risen sharply since Omicron took hold last month, latest figures show.

The number of workers off sick for Covid reasons trebled from the beginning of December.

The Royal College of Nursing said growing absences meant the situation was "simply not safe."

NHS national medical director Professor Stephen Powis said staff were under pressure but were "stepping up".

Downing Street said Boris Johnson saw no need for further restrictions despite the staff absences, as England's current measures were "balanced and proportionate".

Earlier this week, the prime minister said he hoped England could "ride out"the Omicron wave without more restrictions.

Approximately 4% of hospital staff in England - nearly 36,000 - were off for Covid reasons each day during the week ending 2 January.

That was a rise of 41% on the previous week, and treble the 11,957 absences seen at the beginning of the Omicron wave in the week ending 5 December.

When other sickness absence is added it brings the total off to 9% - nearly double what would normally be seen at this time of year.

 

[Al B]

9 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

 I find the issue of face coverings to be interesting. We go into our local supermarkets and indoor shopping malls and despite their use being obligatory (with limited medical exceptions), many folk just don't bother.  The same applies to public transport.  The same happens at Fir Park. When in your seating area they're not obligatory and thats fair enough. But in enclosed indoor spaces???? Many just aren't bothering.

I do wear a mask in indoor public places where asked, but that's purely to avoid hassle when I'm either just trying to have a pint or get my shopping, but there's one very obvious thing that's right in front of peoples faces, that shows how ineffective masks (as they are worn by the general public) are pointless, and don't do very much.

They steam your glasses up.

Let's think that through....

[Al B]

42 minutes ago, wellwell91 said:

Think this data is more important than hospitalisation 

Covid-related staff absences at hospitals in England have risen sharply since Omicron took hold last month, latest figures show.

The number of workers off sick for Covid reasons trebled from the beginning of December.

The Royal College of Nursing said growing absences meant the situation was "simply not safe."

NHS national medical director Professor Stephen Powis said staff were under pressure but were "stepping up".

Downing Street said Boris Johnson saw no need for further restrictions despite the staff absences, as England's current measures were "balanced and proportionate".

Earlier this week, the prime minister said he hoped England could "ride out"the Omicron wave without more restrictions.

Approximately 4% of hospital staff in England - nearly 36,000 - were off for Covid reasons each day during the week ending 2 January.

That was a rise of 41% on the previous week, and treble the 11,957 absences seen at the beginning of the Omicron wave in the week ending 5 December.

When other sickness absence is added it brings the total off to 9% - nearly double what would normally be seen at this time of year.

 

Well, that's what happens when you force completely healthy, double vaccinated and boostered NHS staff to sit in the house for a week even with a negative test, just because someone they know has tested positive.

Again, it's ridiculous to expect an instruction to increase testing to not result in a proportionate increase in positivity. If those two stay relative...that's a good thing....that's what you want. It's only if they widen that it means anything bad is happening. It's equally ridiculous to widen the parameters of isolation requirements (esstentially causing healthy, negative testing people to isolate) and then report theres a crisis because more people aren't at work. What did they think would happen when they extended the isolation rules to include people who don't even have Covid? Their instruction is literally causing the staffing crises in the first place.

[wellwell91]

3 minutes ago, Al B said:

Well, that's what happens when you force completely healthy, double vaccinated and boostered NHS staff having to sit in the house for a week even with a negative test, just because someone they know has tested positive.

Naw that’s what happens when 1in 15,  3.7million people test +ve with covid

The problem with this variant is not how ill it makes you but how fast it spreads and infects other people … 

[Al B]

1 minute ago, wellwell91 said:

Naw that’s what happens when 1in 15,  3.7million people test +ve with covid

The problem with this variant is not how ill it makes you but how fast it spreads and infects other people … 

At this point, I'm going to respectfully leave it here.

[GrahamH]

3 hours ago, Al B said:

Well, that's what happens when you force completely healthy, double vaccinated and boostered NHS staff to sit in the house for a week even with a negative test, just because someone they know has tested positive.

Double vaccinated and boostered NHS staff don’t need to isolate if they are negative. They just need a negative PCR and then daily negative LFT’s to be allowed to attend work.

Edit to avoid confusion: this was in place long before the changes in the last couple of days

[Al B]

14 minutes ago, GrahamH said:

Double vaccinated and boostered NHS staff don’t need to isolate if they are negative. They just need a negative PCR and then daily negative LFT’s to be allowed to attend work.

Well, no-one needs to now as they have removed the requirement and replaced it with the above for everyone. If that has always been the case for NHS staff (and not just changed in the last couple of days along with everyone else) then on the face of it that's sensible, but it really does highlight the ridiculousness of the rule in the first place. Essentially saying if your husband/wife is positive then even if you work in an office by yourself you can't go....but if you work in a hospital full of vulnerable people then you can! Bonkers.

If so then good to hear that NHS staff were exempt from such a rule (I wasn't aware of that), but that doesn't take away from the ridiculousness of the rule itself.

[Al B]

2 hours ago, steelboy said:

It's 20 days since Sturgeon said Omicron was dominant which meant taking over Delta which was widespread. All the signs are pointing to this being far milder, it's not going to suddenly change severity. 

The Scottish Government today finally put out figures separating out who is being treated for Covid and who has Covid in hospital for two health boards. It's 60% for and 40% with which translates to roughly 500 people being treated for Covid in the whole of Scotland  which is good news.

Seems that 60% is made up of 48%  "definite" and 12%  "probable", which means they are still combining admissions BECAUSE of Covid, and admissions for something else but also showing symptoms of covid.

The 40% are people who are there for something completely unrelated and tested positive upon admission.

I can't wrap my head around why they are being so cagey about telling us how many people are being hospitalised by Covid, who would otherwise be at home completely fine with nothing wrong with them if they didn't have it. (Which is of course the number that everything should be based on)

[Erskine Alpha]

So.........what about this Ross County game. 

[MJC]

8 minutes ago, Erskine Alpha said:

So.........what about this Ross County game. 

Hopefully Covid doesn’t impact our squad for this one and we go up there as near to full strength as possible.

We have a decent record at Dingwall and if we are at or close to full strength I think we can maintain that.

[GazzyB]

When are we likely to know re crowds?

[steelboy]

20 minutes ago, GazzyB said:

When are we likely to know re crowds?

It should be Tuesday. 

[Kmcalpin]

It would seem that our Covid outbreak has happened at the right time  if there is such a thing. Hopefully we'll have a reasonably full squad for the game.

[ohwulliewullie]

1 hour ago, Al B said:

I can't wrap my head around why they are being so cagey about telling us how many people are being hospitalised by Covid, who would otherwise be at home completely fine with nothing wrong with them if they didn't have it. (Which is of course the number that everything should be based on)

If I had to take a stab in the dark, I’d suggest it’s to ‘encourage’ people to get vaccinated / boostered… which is in everyone’s interests… and if so, and it works… maybe the end justifies the means?!

[Al B]

5 minutes ago, ohwulliewullie said:

If I had to take a stab in the dark, I’d suggest it’s to ‘encourage’ people to get vaccinated / boostered… which is in everyone’s interests… and if so, and it works… maybe the end justifies the means?!

Well, firstly they have been reporting it like that since the very beginning, way before vaccinations were around. Secondly we're up there with the most vaccinated countries there is, and lastly if that is their intention with it, they have completely undermined it by forcing vaccinated people to isolate and introducing restrictions across the board regardless of vaccination status. Anyone that has chosen not to be vaccinated isn't going to be encouraged by that...they are going to be saying whats the point in getting vaccinated if I still have to stay in the house?

[santheman]

Thanks Al B.

You've spoken more sense on here in a day than Leitch has in 2 years.

 

[ohwulliewullie]

15 minutes ago, Al B said:

Well, firstly they have been reporting it like that since the very beginning, way before vaccinations were around. Secondly we're up there with the most vaccinated countries there is, and lastly if that is their intention with it, they have completely undermined it by forcing vaccinated people to isolate and introducing restrictions across the board regardless of vaccination status. Anyone that has chosen not to be vaccinated isn't going to be encouraged by that...they are going to be saying whats the point in getting vaccinated if I still have to stay in the house?

I guess I was making the point that painting the worst case scenario… focusing on infections…. and imposing / trying to justify additional restrictions… may indeed have that effect. I heard something on the radio the other day (not sure the source) that in the current Omicron vaccine / booster push, 750K people in the UK had come forward for their first vaccination… which I felt was surprisingly very high (in a good way, as it’s in everyone’s interests as I said)

[livivoice]

15 minutes ago, santheman said:

Thanks Al B.

You've spoken more sense on here in a day than Leitch has in 2 years.

 

Al B argues his case well but I'd suggest we all look at the comments of the Welsh First Minister who hits the nail on the head regarding the buffoon that is Johnson and his acknowledgement that Wales as with Scotland have got it about right 

[santheman]

10 minutes ago, livivoice said:

Al B argues his case well but I'd suggest we all look at the comments of the Welsh First Minister who hits the nail on the head regarding the buffoon that is Johnson and his acknowledgement that Wales as with Scotland have got it about right.

I'll pass on that thanks all the same.

[ropy]

6 hours ago, Al B said:

And you are absolutely right to do so, if that is what you believe. And that is really the crux of my point in fairness, we are now at a point where the public should be trusted to assert their own attitude to risk, much like if an individual believes that the risk of a plane crash is too high for them, then they are fully within their rights to not go on one and that is absolutely fair enough. But you don't ban air travel because some planes crash.

I don't think anyone is (rationally) saying that no action should be taken at all. The point is more that the action shouldn't just be arbitrary and should have some sort of basis behind it.

A lot is being made of the whole "football fans shouldnt be so selfish" thing, but the fact that it's football is neither here nor there. On the one hand you have football being limited to 500 people in stadiums whilst schools stayed open. What you can essentially break that down into is  a group of 98% vaccinated people outdoors, Vs a group of 100% unvaccinated people in an enclosed space. Which one is more of a threat? And yet which one was allowed to continue?

The fact that it's football doesn't matter....it's the fact that it doesn't make sense and isn't dealing with the problem, is what's infuriating people.

That's not even touching the fact that, yes limiting Fir Park to 500 fans spreads everyone out, but if you take a smaller club with one stand that normally has maybe 250 people in it, with 600-700 spread out around the rest of the stadium, then what the 500 limit is actually doing in real terms, is taking a stand that normally has 250 people in it, and putting 500 people in it. Again, the fact that it's football is neither here-nor-there, it's the fact that it's arbitrary, across the board, and makes no sense, that is causing the outrage.

Or take the mandatory re-introduction of screens in pubs and shops, which were literally proven to reduce airflow and contain air particles into areas rather than allowing them to disperse. Again, no-ones saying there should be no action....but it should be proportionate and at the very VERY least, correct and helpful.

 

It was reported by a journalist that I can't for the life of me find now (I will keep trying as I fully appreciate how unbelievable this is....which is basically my point), that he had the following exchange in a private media briefing with a government rep in advance of a public one:

"Is it the case that if I am in a Church then I must wear a mask, unless I am singing in which case I can remove the mask?

Yes.

Does that mean that I can go into Tesco without a mask as long as I am singing?

Well, techincally by the letter of the rules, yes."

 

I mean.....let's just leave it there cos even though it's Friday I should at least do SOME work.

I think we will win 1-0