Cup Motherwell v Hibs 13/03/2022

[mcguru]

4 hours ago, star sail said:

I don't think there should be a free for all at any stage. A dangerous tackle should be treated the same from minute 0 to 90.

The timing yesterday just highlights how important it is that the decision is the right one. The game was over for 8000 fans after the first minute. 

The ref has to make a split second decision. It is a big big call and the referee's need help to make them. We need VAR. I would rather sit for 2 mins so we can get the right decision rather than sit through 89 mins of a game that is effectively over. 

I also think our refs should have mics. Transparency is really important and it is something that Scottish football in particular could do with. 

I have never understood why refs would not welcome that transparency. If  they can explain an on field decision at the time I think it would help with trust in our game. 

I don't think this decision was as clear cut as you suggest Busta. I think a yellow card may have been enough but I can see why the red was given. I wonder if it is just a matter of time before slide tackles of any sort are outlawed in the game. 

I actually think refs would welcome transparency, I really do.

What would not be welcome is TV viewers hearing the language used by players throughout the game, effing blinding and c’ing. That’s why we’ll never hear that live.

Funny, those rugby boys will bulldoze you into next week with a tackle but I’ve yet to hear any of them swear

 

 

 

[Spiderpig]

Semi final draw

Celtic v Rangers

Hearts v Hibs

Somebody fecked up the draw then,  

[grizzlyg]

14 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Semi final draw

Celtic v Rangers

Hearts v Hibs

Somebody fecked up the draw then,  

So gutted for Premier Sports........NOT!! lol

[Kmcalpin]

34 minutes ago, mcguru said:

I actually think refs would welcome transparency, I really do.

What would not be welcome is TV viewers hearing the language used by players throughout the game, effing blinding and c’ing. That’s why we’ll never hear that live.

Believe me some refs use foul language as well. It would surprise you.

[MJC]

Hearts will pump Hibs as they usually do, they really are a bang average side but we just weren’t good enough against them yesterday.

[gaz7]

2 hours ago, wellwell91 said:

Correct worse than the one yesterday studs up nowhere near the ball and catches United man above the ankle 

Yep but Michael stewart says a yellow was right but borderline red whereas yesterday mugabis definite red.

Refs and pundits and journalists are all terrified of upsetting either of them.

The balls burst but then again it always has been.

[joewarkfanclub]

8 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

How long should the free for all last?

Longer than 50 secs.......

We all know that, rightly or wrongly, referees tend to be more lenient in the first few minutes of a game. The days of getting the first one for free may be over, but allowances are still made until the game settles down.

[Alpha1886]

Can someone please explain why Mugabe’s tackle merited a red card and the one by Hatate(?) in tonight’s game gets a yellow?

Rhetorical question - I’m sure I know the answer.

[Haggischomper]

The challenge by Bevis was still a red. As was the one from Roberts.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[El Grew]

11 hours ago, star sail said:

The timing yesterday just highlights how important it is that the decision is the right one. The game was over for 8000 fans after the first minute. 

The ref has to make a split second decision. It is a big big call and the referee's need help to make them. We need VAR. I would rather sit for 2 mins so we can get the right decision rather than sit through 89 mins of a game that is effectively over. 

Whilst I appreciate your opinion, I would say that the time when a foul is committed is irrelevant, whether it be in the first minute or the last and it must be adjudicated solely on its merits as a foul whether minor or otherwise.

Further, if VAR had been available yesterday and it confirmed the referee’s red card decision, we’d still have had to sit through 89 minutes of a game that was effectively over.

VAR, as has been well demonstrated in the English Premiership, is far from being a panacea to help football make “the right calls”.  

Consider how many pundits and fans (from both clubs including many on this forum) forensically analysed the same TV replays and freeze-frames of Bevis Mugabi’s tackle yesterday.  Now consider that having done so, opinions are still divided between those who think it warranted a red card and those who think it should’ve been a yellow.

My point is, that referees only have a split second in real time to make a decision based on what they’ve seen and that even with VAR, there’s still room for doubt or debate as to the “final” decision.

For my own part, when I saw the tackle in real time, admittedly from much further away than the referee, I thought it looked a bad one and risked a red card.  Having reviewed it on TV, and, whilst I’m absolutely certain there was no malice on Bevis Mugabi’s part, I’m sorry to say that I still believe that it warranted a red card.

What pissed me off yesterday, was seeing a number of Hibs players running at the referee waving their arms and demanding he send Mugabi and then later, Roberts off.  This is despicable and has no place in football and I hope the referee has the guts to make comment in his match report on the conduct of the Hibs players involved at these incidents and that the SFA take appropriate action towards those players and send a message that this kind of conduct won’t be tolerated.  If he fails to do so then Motherwell should raise the issue with the SFA direct.

[SteelmaninOZ]

14 hours ago, KirkySuperSub said:

Anyone thinking VAR is going to be the epiphany of Scottish football should only need to watch Match Of The Day or Sky Sports to see the arguments and discussions who still can't agree what's what, even with the VAR stills on screen.

At the end of the day, the final decision still lies with the same incompetent referee to make the call, only assisted by some slow-mo and stills.

I doubt very much VAR would have made the slightest bit of difference in Collum's mind yesterday afternoon, in the first incident, not knowing a second was so close in occurring.

And Collum could be the VAR in the bunker at Hampden. 

[Alpha1886]

4 minutes ago, Haggischomper said:

The challenge by Bevis was still a red. As was the one from Roberts.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
 

Didn’t say it was not a red. But if it were would like a explanation why Hatate’s was not.

[pretzel]

19 hours ago, Pepper said:

Some OF levels of delusion on display here.

I wouldn't go as far as that to tbf. The fact that it's had such a mixed response between 'Well fans, oppositions team fans and pundits over the last few days says it all really, I actually enjoy getting the different perspectives. Personally I've struggled to make my mind but having seen the tackle from the Celtic game last night it begs the question what was the difference in the challenges that merited one player getting a red and one getting a yellow for offences that would fall under the same bracket. Liam Donnelly was on the end of a similar robust challenge from Richard Tait only a month or so ago and not a word was spoken, I think it's the consistency from incidents like that which don't help matters.

I had actually forgotten but Willie Collum isn't a stranger to an early red, as he sent off Michael O'Halloran off for Rangers after 4 minutes in 2017, sadly Mr McDonald put in a idiotic challenge 20 minutes later and also saw red.

[Great Balls of Shire]

23 minutes ago, pretzel said:

I wouldn't go as far as that to tbf. The fact that it's had such a mixed response between 'Well fans, oppositions team fans and pundits over the last few days says it all really, I actually enjoy getting the different perspectives. Personally I've struggled to make my mind but having seen the tackle from the Celtic game last night it begs the question what was the difference in the challenges that merited one player getting a red and one getting a yellow for offences that would fall under the same bracket. Liam Donnelly was on the end of a similar robust challenge from Richard Tait only a month or so ago and not a word was spoken, I think it's the consistency from incidents like that which don't help matters.

I had actually forgotten but Willie Collum isn't a stranger to an early red, as he sent off Michael O'Halloran off for Rangers after 4 minutes in 2017, sadly Mr McDonald put in a idiotic challenge 20 minutes later and also saw red.

Hatates tacke was worse than Mugabes , he didn't get anything on the ball but it's irrelevant now, Diddy Cup anyway.....4th spot is what matters lol

[Busta Nut]

Haha some of you are mad. Same folk who will laugh at OF fans doing the same kinda tin foil hat stuff.

[Ya Bezzer!]

14 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

I'm 100% against VAR,  If the ref didn't send him off they would have reviewed that and sent him off.

Me too.

VAR will make it even more pointless for smaller teams to try and compete with the big teams.

It's also takes the joy out of the whole point of football - scoring a goal.

[wellwell91]

1 hour ago, pretzel said:

Personally I've struggled to make my mind but having seen the tackle from the Celtic game last night it begs the question what was the difference in the challenges that merited one player getting a red and one getting a yellow for offences that would fall under the same bracket. 

RED Big strong guy going legally for the ball and the lighter guy not being strong enough to take the hit 

YELLOW Small guy flying in with studs and the defender riding the tackle 

So in summary Big strong defenders are no longer allowed to make tackles on lightweights 

 

[wellwell91]

9 hours ago, Haggischomper said:

The challenge by Bevis was still a red. As was the one from Roberts.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
 

The tackle from Bevis was not a red card  … … have a good look at it he goes for the ball with his instep and his foot never leaves the ground and he makes contact with the ball

Not his fault that he’s twice the height and build of the Hibs player.

The reaction of the Hibs players getting into Collums face got him sent off. 
Agree with you on the Roberts one a definite red card 

[Yorkyred]

9 hours ago, Alpha1886 said:

Can someone please explain why Mugabe’s tackle merited a red card and the one by Hatate(?) in tonight’s game gets a yellow?

Rhetorical question - I’m sure I know the answer.

Different game, different ref, happens all the time. You can only judge what happened in our game, anything else is irrelevant.

[Great Balls of Shire]

2 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

Different game, different ref, happens all the time. You can only judge what happened in our game, anything else is irrelevant.

yep, different ref and it does happen all the time but they are surely all refereeing to the same rules,  its not meant to be subjective. 

if mugabe had been an old firm player , he wouldn't have walked, that's the frustration. 

people saying he didn't need to challenge are the same ones who give players pelters for not challenging...its a split second decision,  I am sure he regrets going In now , but still say he's unlucky, hes not a dirty player.

 

[star sail]

2 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

Different game, different ref, happens all the time. You can only judge what happened in our game, anything else is irrelevant.

That though is the whole problem. There is no consistency whatsoever. 

Look at the Mugabi and Roberts tackle. Same game, same ref, same tackle  different outcome. No conspiracy theories just inconsistency. 

I have not seen the Celtic players tackle but different game, different ref different outcome. 

People pay their money to watch a cup tie of 11 v 11. If a ref is to make a decision in the first minute to change that he has to be confident that he has it right. 

The fact that he did not send of Roberts suggests to me that Collum was not as confident about the first decision. My own theory there is that he actually showed a moment of genuine compassion about the teams situation. Not right but certainly not the actions of a man out to get us. 

I am not really understanding the OF levels of paranoia comments either however. It is a legitimate debate and just because a few are very confident in there  opinion that it is as a red, does no mean that anybody who disagrees with that is showing  OF levels of paranoia. That is a strange conclusion to come to. Was Kenny Miller showing OF levels of paranoia. He thought the decision was harsh. I thought a yellow would have been enough but I can see why the red was given. 

It comes as part of a growing trend from a small minority to dismiss anything and anybody that actually tries to defend the  club (I have quoted you Yorkyred but I don't mean to implicate you in this observation) the players and it's  own fans. It is like a bias against the club. I thought that the role of a football fan was to be biased and blinkered in favour of your own club not against it. Is that not part of the fun of it? 

Within a minute of the sending off on Sunday there was a few tripping over themselves to blame Graham Alexander. He was standing in the dugout. It was 50 seconds into the game. How does that work? 

It is almost like the red card provides a platform to justify deep seated frustrations and opinions about the club and its fans. 

Mugabi made an honest mistake and yet the clammer to vilify him started instantly. Could you imagine if it had been SOD, the player that was been slated by a minority of Well fans last summer in the Euros for keeping Nathan Patterson out of the Scotland team.?

Ultimately it was a red card and the vast majority of Well fans would agree that the ref made the decision as he saw it at the time for good and honest reasons. He was influenced  by the reaction of the Hibs players and he was influenced by the fact that Doig was upended because of the weight difference between the two players. He is bound to be influenced by those factors because he is human. In his quiet moments after the game he may feel he got it right, he may feel he got it wrong. 

As fans we should have the opportunity to discuss it without being brow beaten one way or the other. 

 

 

[Yorkyred]

1 hour ago, star sail said:

That though is the whole problem. There is no consistency whatsoever. 

Look at the Mugabi and Roberts tackle. Same game, same ref, same tackle  different outcome. No conspiracy theories just inconsistency. 

I have not seen the Celtic players tackle but different game, different ref different outcome. 

People pay their money to watch a cup tie of 11 v 11. If a ref is to make a decision in the first minute to change that he has to be confident that he has it right. 

The fact that he did not send of Roberts suggests to me that Collum was not as confident about the first decision. My own theory there is that he actually showed a moment of genuine compassion about the teams situation. Not right but certainly not the actions of a man out to get us. 

I am not really understanding the OF levels of paranoia comments either however. It is a legitimate debate and just because a few are very confident in there  opinion that it is as a red, does no mean that anybody who disagrees with that is showing  OF levels of paranoia. That is a strange conclusion to come to. Was Kenny Miller showing OF levels of paranoia. He thought the decision was harsh. I thought a yellow would have been enough but I can see why the red was given. 

It comes as part of a growing trend from a small minority to dismiss anything and anybody that actually tries to defend the  club (I have quoted you Yorkyred but I don't mean to implicate you in this observation) the players and it's  own fans. It is like a bias against the club. I thought that the role of a football fan was to be biased and blinkered in favour of your own club not against it. Is that not part of the fun of it? 

Within a minute of the sending off on Sunday there was a few tripping over themselves to blame Graham Alexander. He was standing in the dugout. It was 50 seconds into the game. How does that work? 

It is almost like the red card provides a platform to justify deep seated frustrations and opinions about the club and its fans. 

Mugabi made an honest mistake and yet the clammer to vilify him started instantly. Could you imagine if it had been SOD, the player that was been slated by a minority of Well fans last summer in the Euros for keeping Nathan Patterson out of the Scotland team.?

Ultimately it was a red card and the vast majority of Well fans would agree that the ref made the decision as he saw it at the time for good and honest reasons. He was influenced  by the reaction of the Hibs players and he was influenced by the fact that Doig was upended because of the weight difference between the two players. He is bound to be influenced by those factors because he is human. In his quiet moments after the game he may feel he got it right, he may feel he got it wrong. 

As fans we should have the opportunity to discuss it without being brow beaten one way or the other. 

 

 

There is certainly inconsistency but there always is regardless of the league. They point it out all the time down south comparing a tackle in one game against one in another. While we have refs that are human beings it’s always going to happen. I’m personally open to all views, not one to get into abusing other supporters just because our views differ, never see the point of it in truth.  There is certainly a level of conspiracy theories regarding the old firm I tend not to get involved in, again I don’t really see the point as I don’t really agree with it. I’ve seen as many strange decisions go against both of them in games as I have any other teams. If you try and point it out you pretty much get shot down, I’m not sure having a balanced view is acceptable when it’s Rangers or Celtic.

[gaz7]

5 hours ago, star sail said:

That though is the whole problem. There is no consistency whatsoever. 

Look at the Mugabi and Roberts tackle. Same game, same ref, same tackle  different outcome. No conspiracy theories just inconsistency. 

I have not seen the Celtic players tackle but different game, different ref different outcome. 

People pay their money to watch a cup tie of 11 v 11. If a ref is to make a decision in the first minute to change that he has to be confident that he has it right. 

The fact that he did not send of Roberts suggests to me that Collum was not as confident about the first decision. My own theory there is that he actually showed a moment of genuine compassion about the teams situation. Not right but certainly not the actions of a man out to get us. 

I am not really understanding the OF levels of paranoia comments either however. It is a legitimate debate and just because a few are very confident in there  opinion that it is as a red, does no mean that anybody who disagrees with that is showing  OF levels of paranoia. That is a strange conclusion to come to. Was Kenny Miller showing OF levels of paranoia. He thought the decision was harsh. I thought a yellow would have been enough but I can see why the red was given. 

It comes as part of a growing trend from a small minority to dismiss anything and anybody that actually tries to defend the  club (I have quoted you Yorkyred but I don't mean to implicate you in this observation) the players and it's  own fans. It is like a bias against the club. I thought that the role of a football fan was to be biased and blinkered in favour of your own club not against it. Is that not part of the fun of it? 

Within a minute of the sending off on Sunday there was a few tripping over themselves to blame Graham Alexander. He was standing in the dugout. It was 50 seconds into the game. How does that work? 

It is almost like the red card provides a platform to justify deep seated frustrations and opinions about the club and its fans. 

Mugabi made an honest mistake and yet the clammer to vilify him started instantly. Could you imagine if it had been SOD, the player that was been slated by a minority of Well fans last summer in the Euros for keeping Nathan Patterson out of the Scotland team.?

Ultimately it was a red card and the vast majority of Well fans would agree that the ref made the decision as he saw it at the time for good and honest reasons. He was influenced  by the reaction of the Hibs players and he was influenced by the fact that Doig was upended because of the weight difference between the two players. He is bound to be influenced by those factors because he is human. In his quiet moments after the game he may feel he got it right, he may feel he got it wrong. 

As fans we should have the opportunity to discuss it without being brow beaten one way or the other. 

 

 

Great Post starsail. 

The bombast of the narcissists on here right enough always makes me laugh

[grizzlyg]

Been a lot of discussion and good debate regarding the Red card.  Seeing it live I thought definite red. Collum obvious thought same but after watching incident my anger is more towards the hibs players. Newel and Porteous were a disgrace and players should be reprimanded for that reaction.  Obviously Collum was the villain amongst fans but wanting him dead, his wife dead and him shot as the guy in East stand wanted was just ridiculous.  Near him you have a guy with his 5yr old daughter and another guy with his wee lad, poor wee yins must have been petrified.  We all get angry and frustrated but you know what it's only a game and when you look at what is happening elsewhere it puts everything into perspective.   Mind you........porteous is still a c**k!!!  Lol.....COYW

[bobbybingo]

I'll cut Mugabi some slack and say he could've got away with a yellow on another day. But then we'd have been looking at a guy, whose job was obviously to get in about Hibs,  one or two fouls away from a red after one minute of a cup game refereed by Scotland's most card happy bastard - so it was a stupid, pointless challenge whatever way you look at it.

Still, he's in good company- wee Dougie's game killing second yellow against Dortmund springs to mind for utter numbskullery.