Next Motherwell Manager - Steven Hammell

[Pepper]

This current debate reminds me a lot of when Robinson left.

I wonder how long it will be before the mods start banning all discussion of Alexander and start closing threads....

[Yabba's Turd]

2 minutes ago, Pepper said:

This current debate reminds me a lot of when Robinson left.

I wonder how long it will be before the mods start banning all discussion of Alexander and start closing threads....

Why's that?

[dennyc]

I think it is pretty unprofessional to completely ignore a player who you deem is good enough for the bench (if not the first team) when the first team is in freefall. I also think it is unprofessional to ignore a player who is good enough for the International team when the player you have selected out of position to take his place is a liability and whose confidence is being destroyed. Alexander was entitled to make his point to SOD, but he carried it on too long and to the detriment of the Club. Sitting on the Bench, watching poor performance after performance,  but not being allowed to contribute could be considered more of a punishment to a top player than being dropped altogether.  That was not professional from Alexander although it looks to be his style. And it carried on into the new season in an attempt to force O'Donnell out of Motherwell altogether. More bench sitting and a replacement signed. No doubt some fans would be happy with that and they are entitled to that view.

If you read O'Donnell's comments he got his head down and worked hard which suggests to me he accepted he had areas to improve. He had certainly made errors in a run of games, like many others. He also made no comment at the time regarding the fall out. That is professional.

And I'm not saying Manager's should be influenced unduly by fans' reaction to players. What is wrong is to use that as a justification for defending Alexander's victimisation of a specific player.

[dennyc]

30 minutes ago, Yabba's Turd said:

He called a meeting with the players and Alexander did not like it.

Is that when he was still Captain. I'm sure that happens at many clubs going through a bad spell. The captain calling a meeting that is.

[wellfan]

34 minutes ago, Yabba's Turd said:

He called a meeting with the players and Alexander did not like it.

Seems like a normal thing for a Captain to do when a team is preparing for a season ahead, and I am assuming you're referring to a time before the Sligo games. 

[Pepper]

18 minutes ago, Yabba's Turd said:

Why's that?

Cos the same folk defending Robinson are now defending Alexander, and back then, instead of accepting that people wanted to discuss the merits of a recently departed manager (good and bad) we were all told to button it and threads were closed. 

I can see this going the same way.

[ppower]

1 hour ago, David said:

Because it is possible to not be good enough for a starting spot, but good enough for a place on the bench. It doesn't have to be a game of absolutes. But let's be honest, if he did have a huge falling out, O'Donnell wouldn't even be training with the first team, let alone sitting on the bench.

What did Alexander do that wasn't professional? Drop a player from the starting eleven who he didn't deem good enough? A player who, by most fans accounts, simply wasn't performing well enough? A player who himself admitted that Alexander may have been correct?

I could understand if Alexander took the same approach as Paul Lambert did with Kayden Jackson and Jon Nolan at Ipswich, banishing them to train with the kids and making vague accusations about the player, but he didn't, did he? Did he disrespect O'Donnell in the media? In press interviews? Did he question O'Donnell's professionalism?

I honestly think he just didn't fancy him as a player. He didn't think he was good enough. Which is allowed, by the way. He's the manager, it's his job to make those calls. I don't personally think it was the right call, but that's on Alexander.

It wasn't unprofessional though.

Why would he? Do you think Alexander removed O'Donnell from the team because of what the fans thought? If he did, then he's got bigger problems than might first be apparent!

He dropped O'Donnell because he didn't think he was good enough. That's a managers prerogative.

Why was it vindictive? Was he banished from the first team? Made to train with the kids? Embarrassed and called out publicly? I don't think he was. He was, basically, seen as surplus to requirements. It happens.

He just wasn't good enough, mate. There's no "patching up" to be done. It was on O'Donnell to up his game and prove to the manager that he was good enough to feature. Which he didn't do, and he knows it going by his admittance that Alexander may have been correct.

Maybe he got dropped initially and the head went down? He didn't respond as he should have? Hopefully he learns from it. 

That squad isn't a shambles. We have some quality in there, it will just take a few key signings in certain areas to make the difference. 

The recruitment thing is a fine line really. It depends who's available at any given time. It's easy for fans to say "get a striker in" but what if there's no decent strikers available within our budget? What then? Just magic one up out of thin air? Or do what we've seen managers in the past do, and sign any old shite as long as it represents a body in the door? 

Often times clubs in our position have to play the waiting game and see who becomes available on a free or via loan once the bigger clubs have conducted their business and finalised their squads. That's why there's usually always a rush of signings in the last few weeks. 

I said before the summer window opened that I'd rather we wait and sign decent quality than waste money on players who aren't going to make the cut just to get bodies in the door and keep the fans happy. If that means we're a bit light and not looking great for the first two or three games in the season then so be it. 

However, we're now in a position where we still need those quality signings, but don't have a manager to rubber stamp them. So, whatever problems we had a few weeks ago are now exacerbated. Which is why I would have stuck with Alexander until around October or so to see how we got on. Or at least until we identified a decent replacement ahead of time.

But the fans wanted him out as "it couldn't possibly be any worse." So, let's see if that's true. There's no real outstanding candidate for the job out there at this stage of the season. There never is. We've gone down the crazy road of parting ways with a manager literally days before the season starts, and we have no one who can rubber stamp signings before the window closes, unless we want to bring a manager in a few weeks from now and hand him a squad that may include brand new signings he doesn't like the look of.

Truth is, the club should either have got rid of Alexander in the summer, or waited until October or November. It seemed quite simple really. But they haven't, they dithered about until he eventually came to them obviously looking for the club to either accept his resignation or signal their intent to back him for the next few months at least.

Let's hope we don't pay the ultimate price for that. 

I think if Stevie Hammell all but says it is a shambles, then it is bad. I would like to know how you know it isn't a shambles. Think Stevie would know what is going on. I will name you the quality. Kelly and Van Veen their stats back it up. Please enlighten me on what other quality we have.

[wellsince75]

Re SOD

my take on it is SOD said and did something that annoyed GA that he dropped him .

GAs way or the highway and suspect Watt , SOD, Slattery all felt the pain of this . 

of course a manager can drop a player for not playing well . Given SOD played all through the euros and straight into the season without a break - at some point he’d need rested .

Yes SOD made a few howlers and could have been dropped for a game or 2 .  The point being this wasn’t consistent , just look at others who was ever present ,that didn’t  get dropped 

putting everything about ability to one side be always found SOD a decent bloke , who makes sense , who’s balanced in his view and accepts criticism  

bottom line is a club like Motherwell can’t afford to drop international players for sustained period of time .

[El Grew]

5 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

I didnt read that article as him  being ostracised, he was on the bench , so hardly the case. He wasnt made to train with youths or anything.Sod , as good as  says in interview that maybe the manager was right to drop him, so that is fairly honest of him.

I am still glad ga has gone as it clearly wasnt going well but things are seldom black and white

Dictionary definition of ostracise: To avoid someone intentionally or to prevent someone from taking part in the activities of a group.

Pretty much think that covers O’Donnell’s treatment.

[Yorkyred]

Honestly I don’t get all the drama re O’Donnell. Just about every man and his dog stated he was awful and should not be playing in the first team, he was dropped. Suddenly that was now the wrong thing and he should have been playing week in week out because we were struggling. I though he was part of the problem. Again it’s simply a player dropped because he was not playing well enough who had a bit of a strop about it. If he called a meeting of the players behind Alexander’s back than frankly he was out of order, that’s not something a player of his status should be doing.  Storm in a teacup.

[El Grew]

3 hours ago, David said:

Because it is possible to not be good enough for a starting spot, but good enough for a place on the bench. It doesn't have to be a game of absolutes. But let's be honest, if he did have a huge falling out, O'Donnell wouldn't even be training with the first team, let alone sitting on the bench.

What did Alexander do that wasn't professional? Drop a player from the starting eleven who he didn't deem good enough? A player who, by most fans accounts, simply wasn't performing well enough? A player who himself admitted that Alexander may have been correct?

I could understand if Alexander took the same approach as Paul Lambert did with Kayden Jackson and Jon Nolan at Ipswich, banishing them to train with the kids and making vague accusations about the player, but he didn't, did he? Did he disrespect O'Donnell in the media? In press interviews? Did he question O'Donnell's professionalism?

I honestly think he just didn't fancy him as a player. He didn't think he was good enough. Which is allowed, by the way. He's the manager, it's his job to make those calls. I don't personally think it was the right call, but that's on Alexander.

It wasn't unprofessional though.

Why would he? Do you think Alexander removed O'Donnell from the team because of what the fans thought? If he did, then he's got bigger problems than might first be apparent!

He dropped O'Donnell because he didn't think he was good enough. That's a managers prerogative.

Why was it vindictive? Was he banished from the first team? Made to train with the kids? Embarrassed and called out publicly? I don't think he was. He was, basically, seen as surplus to requirements. It happens.

He just wasn't good enough, mate. There's no "patching up" to be done. It was on O'Donnell to up his game and prove to the manager that he was good enough to feature. Which he didn't do, and he knows it going by his admittance that Alexander may have been correct.

Maybe he got dropped initially and the head went down? He didn't respond as he should have? Hopefully he learns from it. 

That squad isn't a shambles. We have some quality in there, it will just take a few key signings in certain areas to make the difference. 

The recruitment thing is a fine line really. It depends who's available at any given time. It's easy for fans to say "get a striker in" but what if there's no decent strikers available within our budget? What then? Just magic one up out of thin air? Or do what we've seen managers in the past do, and sign any old shite as long as it represents a body in the door? 

Often times clubs in our position have to play the waiting game and see who becomes available on a free or via loan once the bigger clubs have conducted their business and finalised their squads. That's why there's usually always a rush of signings in the last few weeks. 

I said before the summer window opened that I'd rather we wait and sign decent quality than waste money on players who aren't going to make the cut just to get bodies in the door and keep the fans happy. If that means we're a bit light and not looking great for the first two or three games in the season then so be it. 

However, we're now in a position where we still need those quality signings, but don't have a manager to rubber stamp them. So, whatever problems we had a few weeks ago are now exacerbated. Which is why I would have stuck with Alexander until around October or so to see how we got on. Or at least until we identified a decent replacement ahead of time.

But the fans wanted him out as "it couldn't possibly be any worse." So, let's see if that's true. There's no real outstanding candidate for the job out there at this stage of the season. There never is. We've gone down the crazy road of parting ways with a manager literally days before the season starts, and we have no one who can rubber stamp signings before the window closes, unless we want to bring a manager in a few weeks from now and hand him a squad that may include brand new signings he doesn't like the look of.

Truth is, the club should either have got rid of Alexander in the summer, or waited until October or November. It seemed quite simple really. But they haven't, they dithered about until he eventually came to them obviously looking for the club to either accept his resignation or signal their intent to back him for the next few months at least.

Let's hope we don't pay the ultimate price for that. 

Thanks for that Graham! 

[dennyc]

1 minute ago, Yorkyred said:

Honestly I don’t get all the drama re O’Donnell. Just about every man and his dog stated he was awful and should not be playing in the first team, he was dropped. Suddenly that was now the wrong thing and he should have been playing week in week out because we were struggling. I though he was part of the problem. Again it’s simply a player dropped because he was not playing well enough who had a bit of a strop about it. If he called a meeting of the players behind Alexander’s back than frankly he was out of order, that’s not something a player of his status should be doing.  Storm in a teacup.

It is not really about O'Donnell though. It is about Alexander and his style of management. O'Donnell is just an example of that style and also Alexander's stubbornness and refusal to do what might have been good for the Club during a spell which at best can be described as poor. Slattery, Woolery. Lamie and to a lesser degree Tierney could all be substituted for SOD as players who were sidelined at a time when others were performing poorly but retained.......Goss, McGinley, Carroll, Shields, Efford, Ojala as examples.

And you keep saying that folk are insisting O'Donnell should not have been dropped. That is just not true, no matter how often you repeat it. What people are saying is that when we were in freefall, Alexander for some reason totally ignored a player who he deemed good enough to sit on the bench and who represented his country. Not even worthy of a try at a time when his preferred selection was becoming a liability with confidence shot to pieces. And is still suffering.

So instead of deflecting to the rights and wrongs of O'Donnell can you please comment on Alexander's performance from January to season end, including his team selections and formation? I say end season, but you can include this season's brief venture into Europe if you like. Clearly those factors were enough for the Club to get rid of him. No matter that " he avoided relegation and got us into Europe".

 

[El Grew]

14 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

Honestly I don’t get all the drama re O’Donnell. Just about every man and his dog stated he was awful and should not be playing in the first team, he was dropped. Suddenly that was now the wrong thing and he should have been playing week in week out because we were struggling. I though he was part of the problem. Again it’s simply a player dropped because he was not playing well enough who had a bit of a strop about it. If he called a meeting of the players behind Alexander’s back than frankly he was out of order, that’s not something a player of his status should be doing.  Storm in a teacup.

Tell you what, if every time a player had a howler or series of howlers he was dropped, we’d be struggling to put 11 players onto the park.  In that respect, O’Donnell was far from the worst culprit - Carroll, Mugabi, McGinley, Ojala and Solhom to name just a few, were way ahead of him on that score so I’d venture to suggest there was more to it than that.  However if we can afford to keep a player on the bench who has 25 international caps we must be awash with talented defenders and from what I’m seeing that most certainly is not the case.  Barring a handful of players, our present squad is shite - Stevie Hammell has recognised this however he has couched it in much more diplomatic language than that.

[Spiderpig]

33 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

If he called a meeting of the players behind Alexander’s back than frankly he was out of order, that’s not something a player of his status should be doing.  Storm in a teacup.

Stop talking shite , out of order, a player of his status .....he was the club captain ffs it was exactly his job to speak to the players and find out their views etc, so if that's what happened it was well within his remit.

God knows why you and others have this love in and obsession about defending Alexander and trying to convince folk he was hard done by the fans players and club, wake up and smell the coffee ffs and have a look at what state he left the club in

[star sail]

O’Donnell is a really strange one with our own support and also the Scotland support in general. I had a conversation with a Celtic fan during the Euros where he stated that SOD should be nowhere near the Scotland Team and that Patterson should be playing. When I asked him if he had seen Patterson play he answered no. That was a Celtic fan backing a Rangers player he had never seen play.

Stranger still, there were Motherwell fans arguing the same thing. At a time when we should have been proud to see a Motherwell player in a Scotland shirt, we seemed determined as a support to undermine our Captain.

Having not backed him in a Scotland shirt and having been almost vitriolic in their criticism of his performances in a Well shirt it is all the stranger that SOD being dropped from the starting 11 is now used as proof positive of Graham Alexander’s poor man management skills. 

If SOD has suffered a crisis of confidence that has impacted his form in recent months there is a very obvious reason for it that could have nothing to do with Graham Alexander.

The beauty of being a football fan is that we get to absolve ourselves of all responsibility, no matter how badly we behave at times, whilst pointing the finger at anybody and everybody we whimsically wish to blame instead.

['WellMagic!]

Alexander stripped all the enjoyment out of going to FP for me. It was fucking diabolical, even when we won. I'm happy he's been papped. He's the first manager we've had in a while I just could not deal with and I'm generally sympathetic towards our managers. It was heaps worse than Robinson, McCall and even dare I say, McGhee at times.

He sold our only attacking threats, played CBs at fullback, loaded the defence from 60 mins onwards, ostracised our best remaining players, built a team with zero attacking prowess and no width, didn't prepare for the euro legs well enough, brings in no competition for Van Veen who is far too lazy, different line ups every week, clueless subs every week, gave out long contracts to average players willy nilly... The list is endless and he's left the club in a bit of a state 

I saw a big of an enough response on Saturday to reaffirm my views that GA was the problem and not totally the players underperforming. I'm happy O'Donnell has come out and indicated that there's been a problem, I think the fans need some inclination into wtf actually went wrong, and coming from a good pro like SOD, I tend to back him. Alexander used to have a nosebleed when SOD, or anyone for that matter, ran forward. SOD had a downturn in form, but that does not make Mugabi a better option at RB, and quite frankly, everyone was rotten for a large period of time. It's bonkers making a player captain, and then instantly losing faith in him.

I have no idea on the next manager, but we need someone who can bring some  positivity and enthusiasm to the club. That's why I'd patch Lambert, he's far too dull and arguably as arrogant as GA was at times. 

Simo could be a risk, but so is anyone from the current suggestions  His enthusiasm in applying three times, and club experience is something that should hold some weight. 

We can't appoint anyone who thinks they are too big for the club 

[Yorkyred]

2 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Stop talking shite , out of order, a player of his status .....he was the club captain ffs it was exactly his job to speak to the players and find out their views etc, so if that's what happened it was well within his remit.

God knows why you and others have this love in and obsession about defending Alexander and trying to convince folk he was hard done by the fans players and club, wake up and smell the coffee ffs and have a look at what state he left the club in

Wow, ok you have your view and  I have mine. No need for a post like that between two adults so I will leave it at that. 

[Yorkyred]

12 minutes ago, star sail said:

O’Donnell is a really strange one with our own support and also the Scotland support in general. I had a conversation with a Celtic fan during the Euros where he stated that SOD should be nowhere near the Scotland Team and that Patterson should be playing. When I asked him if he had seen Patterson play he answered no. That was a Celtic fan backing a Rangers player he had never seen play.

Stranger still, there were Motherwell fans arguing the same thing. At a time when we should have been proud to see a Motherwell player in a Scotland shirt, we seemed determined as a support to undermine our Captain.

Having not backed him in a Scotland shirt and having been almost vitriolic in their criticism of his performances in a Well shirt it is all the stranger that SOD being dropped from the starting 11 is now used as proof positive of Graham Alexander’s poor man management skills. 

If SOD has suffered a crisis of confidence that has impacted his form in recent months there is a very obvious reason for it that could have nothing to do with Graham Alexander.

The beauty of being a football fan is that we get to absolve ourselves of all responsibility, no matter how badly we behave at times, whilst pointing the finger at anybody and everybody we whimsically wish to blame instead.

Very much so and in truth if that had been a player who had been in form and critical to our success then questions could be asked. But as you point out above that was not the reality of where we were performance wise. I’m personally not that bothered that Alexander has left, maybe it did need that change, he had his faults and the football was awful. I’m just not a fan of kicking someone when they are down.

[mfc]

If O'Donnell was dropped cause of his performances then fair enough but if it was for another reason then we had to watch mugabi lumbering about at right back then I would say that was determent to the team,things happen at clubs all the time but they can't be allowed to fester on especially at clubs like our where we need every player on board,we can't have players sitting in the stand because of fall outs.on the meeting that O'Donnell was meant to have had with the players,I don't have a problem with that you hear that happening quite often,the players should be able to sit in a room and air any grievances and get to the bottom of why things on the pitch aren't going well without the manager being there.

[grizzlyg]

Can I suggest something,. Alexander has left so whether you were a fan or not, we move on and anticipate our new manager and let's give them a proper chance as this ain't going to be a quick fix,. COYW 

[dennyc]

29 minutes ago, star sail said:

 

Having not backed him in a Scotland shirt and having been almost vitriolic in their criticism of his performances in a Well shirt it is all the stranger that SOD being dropped from the starting 11 is now used as proof positive of Graham Alexander’s poor man management skills. 

 

Again, it is not the fact Alexander dropped O'Donnell to the bench. That was justified in most folks eyes but perplexing when others were just as poor but retained their place regardless. So let's get that straight.

What is being highlighted is that in our time of dire need, when his chosen replacement at right back was becoming a liability and rapidly losing confidence, Alexander refused to use O'Donnell off the bench...... or to even start a game. And that continued into this season even after our home performance against Sligo.  Being on the bench, we have to assume that O'Donnell was fit enough and performed well enough in training to merit that place. O'Donnell's recent comments suggest he did just knuckle down and get on with it. So why not try him as the situation on the field became more and more depressing? No wonder most people believe it was personal and that O'Donnell was being made to suffer. Refuse the Bench position and he could have been suspended by the Club. Credit to O'Donnell for not going down the Declan route.

[joewarkfanclub]

7 hours ago, David said:

Nah, we do what we need to do to succeed. If we have a chance to take someone like Mackay or McInnes from a team around us, we do it. I'd rather we did that and succeeded, than lose our premiership status but retain our status as a club who don't do shitty things.

Why would Mackay or McInnes leave their current positions to come to us?

Kilmarnock are a similar size of club as us with a similar size of support but a wealthy benefactor supporting their attempts to become fan owned.

Ross County could be argued to be a smaller club and living outwith their means, but they too have a wealthy benefactor who shows no sign of stopping any time soon and has backed Mackay to the hilt.

They would be mad to jump ship in the hope that they could sort us out. Its not like we would be paying them any more money  or that we have any greater potential.

[weeyin]

It shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility to maintain our Premiership status AND not do shitty things.

 

[Spit_It_Out]

It's all shite,pish and jobbie now really he said she said who gives a flying f--k!

All that matters on is forwards and forwards at at a rate the speed light would blink at whoever get the job folk will like some folk won't like it.

One thing is for sure it's good we have these forums to have a place to debate wrong or right it's good to talk.

The big question is....Why hasn't Grimmy got a club or maybe he has?

 

[joewarkfanclub]

As one who supported GA longer than most on here, I find it perplexing that given the information that is leaking out now, that people continue to defend him. People need to pay attention to the nuance of the language being used. Its clear to me from the things that Steven Hammell has said and now SOD, that things behind the scenes were far from perfect and that players and staff alike werent happy with what was going on. Usually these things remain unsaid even once the manager has gone. The fact that they are not speaks volumes to me. 

I have no problem with agreeing that SODs performances for us were poor and that he could have no arguments about being dropped. But it did mystify me when I watched him play for Scotland. Particularly at Wembley when he was outstanding.

Of course we dont know what really happened behind the scenes, but with Slattery disappearing for months, SOD being benched, so many players seemingly low on confidence and now comments from Hammy and SOD in the press, it appears that the working environment created by GA was part of the problem.