Motherwell v Rangers 16/10/2022

[Great Balls of Shire]

47 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

I’m not convinced it’s ever as black or white as some would have us believe on here. One moment the team are amazing, the next the worst squad in history. Robinson and Alexander excellent managers that got us out of problems and did well in the cup to absolute bomb scares who did not have a clue what they were doing, there is just about always a middle ground that’s rarely trodden on here. Hammell will be the same, good and bad runs, sometimes a hero and the next week a villain. All had the same objective, stay in this league regardless of how we look.

Totally agree but there are some on here who thrive on the doomsday scenario, any manager knows more about tactics and players than all of us posters put together.

We knew October was going to be a toughie but that's not going to stop the usual suspects, some of them are surely old enough to have seen it all before.

Josh Morris  has got ability, but he's not going to get a chance because of who signed him ..he lacks pace , so that's a problem too 

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, Yorkyred said:

I’m not convinced it’s ever as black or white as some would have us believe on here. One moment the team are amazing, the next the worst squad in history. Robinson and Alexander excellent managers that got us out of problems and did well in the cup to absolute bomb scares who did not have a clue what they were doing, there is just about always a middle ground that’s rarely trodden on here. Hammell will be the same, good and bad runs, sometimes a hero and the next week a villain. All had the same objective, stay in this league regardless of how we look.

I agree with this to be fair. And by the same logic, no matter how much success in the past, there comes a time when current form dictates whether a Manager has reached his sell by date. The survival of the Club is what matters and when that survival seems to be in doubt action is always taken. The previous success really only buys a Manager a wee bit more time to turn things round. And that applies whether the surname is Alexander, Hammell or Guardiola.

[MJC]

1 hour ago, Yorkyred said:

I’m not convinced it’s ever as black or white as some would have us believe on here. One moment the team are amazing, the next the worst squad in history. Robinson and Alexander excellent managers that got us out of problems and did well in the cup to absolute bomb scares who did not have a clue what they were doing, there is just about always a middle ground that’s rarely trodden on here. Hammell will be the same, good and bad runs, sometimes a hero and the next week a villain. All had the same objective, stay in this league regardless of how we look.

I agree and as you say both Robinson and Alexander came in and turned things around at the time but both outstayed their shelf life with us, particularly Robinson. In Alexander’s case we and him were merely ‘going through the motions’ from the start of 2022, possibly longer and only Watts goals in the first half of last season and a lot of luck got us the finish we got.  There was clearly no plan, no vision other than just shitfesting it every week by chopping and changing the team and hoping for their best.

[texanwellfan]

1 hour ago, Stuwell2 said:

Kind of in agreement with this but if the other team plays to frustrate/kill the game, then it’s a lot harder to play entertaining football. 

That’s certainly part of the challenge

[David]

26 minutes ago, MJC_mkII said:

I agree and as you say both Robinson and Alexander came in and turned things around at the time but both outstayed their shelf life with us, particularly Robinson. In Alexander’s case we and him were merely ‘going through the motions’ from the start of 2022, possibly longer and only Watts goals in the first half of last season and a lot of luck got us the finish we got.  There was clearly no plan, no vision other than just shitfesting it every week by chopping and changing the team and hoping for their best.

This kind of chat really does my head in. How many fans will be saying that Man City will only win the league this season due to Haaland's goals? Of course Watt's goals helped us, that's his job! He was part of the team! 

As for "a lot of luck" getting us the finish we got? By the same token, a lot of bad luck stopped us finishing higher in the second half of the season then? Of course not, because the narrative is that when a manager we don't particularly like does well it's mainly down to luck, but when he does badly it's entirely on him and him alone.

[Yorkyred]

2 hours ago, David said:

This kind of chat really does my head in. How many fans will be saying that Man City will only win the league this season due to Haaland's goals? Of course Watt's goals helped us, that's his job! He was part of the team! 

As for "a lot of luck" getting us the finish we got? By the same token, a lot of bad luck stopped us finishing higher in the second half of the season then? Of course not, because the narrative is that when a manager we don't particularly like does well it's mainly down to luck, but when he does badly it's entirely on him and him alone.

We certainly should have had far more points in that bad run, fine margins in many games.

[MJC]

4 hours ago, David said:

This kind of chat really does my head in. How many fans will be saying that Man City will only win the league this season due to Haaland's goals? Of course Watt's goals helped us, that's his job! He was part of the team! 

As for "a lot of luck" getting us the finish we got? By the same token, a lot of bad luck stopped us finishing higher in the second half of the season then? Of course not, because the narrative is that when a manager we don't particularly like does well it's mainly down to luck, but when he does badly it's entirely on him and him alone.

The point being that when Watt left in January our form nosedived and we didn’t win a league match until April. We hadn’t been playing particularly well pre Christmas but how many times did we win by a the odd goal thanks to Watt? He leaves and potential narrow wins become draws and draws become losses.

And whether I or anyone else ‘liked’ Alexander or not is irrelevant. Our form from the turn of the year and the end of the season was dreadful and almost certainly would have seen us right in the fight to avoid the drop if hadn’t been for the aforementioned Watt’s goals in the first half of the season. The football we played in that same time was terrible and the luck came from sides around us cutting their own throats and a last minute equaliser against Livingston which got us top six.

Any team who wins three matches in five months yet qualifies for Europe is lucky. And only Ross County not holding on to a 1-0 lead against Dundee Utd while we getting royally pumped at Celtic Park on the final day prevented us from being even luckier and finishing 4th. 

[steelboy]

6 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

 

Josh Morris  has got ability, but he's not going to get a chance because of who signed him ..he lacks pace , so that's a problem too 

He's has had about 20 combined shockingly bad attempts at crosses and shots since he arrived. 

He's shite. His attempt at a cross in the first half on Sunday was pathetic, he should be nowhere near our squad. 

[David]

1 hour ago, MJC_mkII said:

The point being that when Watt left in January our form nosedived and we didn’t win a league match until April. We hadn’t been playing particularly well pre Christmas but how many times did we win by a the odd goal thanks to Watt? He leaves and potential narrow wins become draws and draws become losses.

Yes, but the point is, that's what good players mean to a team. When teams lose their best players, they suffer. 

That's why teams sign strikers. To score goals. It's part of the whole process, so it's kind of weird to say "ah, but the only reason we won games is because we had a good striker!"

1 hour ago, MJC_mkII said:

And whether I or anyone else ‘liked’ Alexander or not is irrelevant. Our form from the turn of the year and the end of the season was dreadful and almost certainly would have seen us right in the fight to avoid the drop if hadn’t been for the aforementioned Watt’s goals in the first half of the season. The football we played in that same time was terrible and the luck came from sides around us cutting their own throats and a last minute equaliser against Livingston which got us top six.

Any team who wins three matches in five months yet qualifies for Europe is lucky. And only Ross County not holding on to a 1-0 lead against Dundee Utd while we getting royally pumped at Celtic Park on the final day prevented us from being even luckier and finishing 4th. 

Basically, when we were winning games and putting points on the table we were lucky, and when we were losing games it's because we were rubbish. Zero credit to the manager and the team as a whole for the positive results during the season. It was all down to luck, Tony Watt's goals (which he scored in a total vacuum, of course. The rest of the team and the managers tactics played no part at all) and our overall league finish had nothing to do with the team and manager doing better than the teams around us over the entirely of the season, but was instead down to other teams being crap.

Honestly, the manager and team can't win when it comes to some fans. 

[ropy]

22 minutes ago, David said:

Yes, but the point is, that's what good players mean to a team. When teams lose their best players, they suffer. 

That's why teams sign strikers. To score goals. It's part of the whole process, so it's kind of weird to say "ah, but the only reason we won games is because we had a good striker!"

Basically, when we were winning games and putting points on the table we were lucky, and when we were losing games it's because we were rubbish. Zero credit to the manager and the team as a whole for the positive results during the season. It was all down to luck, Tony Watt's goals (which he scored in a total vacuum, of course. The rest of the team and the managers tactics played no part at all) and our overall league finish had nothing to do with the team and manager doing better than the teams around us over the entirely of the season, but was instead down to other teams being crap.

Honestly, the manager and team can't win when it comes to some fans. 

All the other teams were unlucky too

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, David said:

 

Basically, when we were winning games and putting points on the table we were lucky, and when we were losing games it's because we were rubbish. Zero credit to the manager and the team as a whole for the positive results during the season. It was all down to luck, Tony Watt's goals (which he scored in a total vacuum, of course. The rest of the team and the managers tactics played no part at all) and our overall league finish had nothing to do with the team and manager doing better than the teams around us over the entirely of the season, but was instead down to other teams being crap.

Honestly, the manager and team can't win when it comes to some fans. 

So just to be clear...... and this is a genuine question as I am getting mixed messages....... Would you have preferred Alexander to still be our Manager? Bottom line.

If not, why not given the robust support you give him? Most people who believed his time was up gave him credit for keeping us up and also the points gathered in first half of last season (securing our top six finish), However they also recognised his and his team's failings in the second half of the season. Our style of play and the Sligo embarrassment only reaffirmed that view. I assume you see it differently? 

I don't believe any Club in the country would have stuck by him any longer given that last seven months. And I cannot buy into the view that folk wanted Alexander out for any reason other than the performances on the pitch and his inability/refusal to alter his approach. I do agree the treatment he received in Ireland was despicable though. I also note he has not walked into another job despite declaring he is available.

Hammell has not gotten off to the greatest of starts but there is a freshness, structure and a unity there which gives me hope for the season ahead and the seasons to come. And not just for the first team.  Sure, he does not have the credit in the bank that both Robinson and Alexander had, but in my opinion he will prove successful if the Club and the fans stick by him. As is the case with every Club worldwide, if he does ultimately fail, he will go. That's the nature of the job he and Alexander signed up to.

 

[grizzlyg]

Alexander is no longer at the club, we move on.  Yes results not been great recently but give Hammy time, was never going to be an overnight turnaround... COYW 

[Spit_It_Out]

18 minutes ago, dennyc said:

So just to be clear...... and this is a genuine question as I am getting mixed messages....... Would you have preferred Alexander to still be our Manager? Bottom line.

If not, why not given the robust support you give him? Most people who believed his time was up gave him credit for keeping us up and also the points gathered in first half of last season (securing our top six finish), However they also recognised his and his team's failings in the second half of the season. Our style of play and the Sligo embarrassment only reaffirmed that view. I assume you see it differently? 

I don't believe any Club in the country would have stuck by him any longer given that last seven months. And I cannot buy into the view that folk wanted Alexander out for any reason other than the performances on the pitch and his inability/refusal to alter his approach. I do agree the treatment he received in Ireland was despicable though. I also note he has not walked into another job despite declaring he is available.

Hammell has not gotten off to the greatest of starts but there is a freshness, structure and a unity there which gives me hope for the season ahead and the seasons to come. And not just for the first team.  Sure, he does not have the credit in the bank that both Robinson and Alexander had, but in my opinion he will prove successful if the Club and the fans stick by him. As is the case with every Club worldwide, if he does ultimately fail, he will go. That's the nature of the job he and Alexander signed up to.

 

Don't think a Well fan alive doesn't want Stevie to be successful not one one but if Hammel doesn't get into the top 6 with a squad that got into the top 6th is that failure?Cause players are more than capable of doing it comes down to way team has set up and tactics.I look at Callum Davidson what he done at St Johnstone  and no reason Stevie Hammel can't do that with us.

Your point of he fails he goes don't agree with that I honestly think should we get relegated the board would stick by him and let him have a chance of getting us back up I truly believe that.

But won't matter anyway cause we are going to win two cups this season and have top six!Get in!

[ppower]

6 hours ago, steelboy said:

He's has had about 20 combined shockingly bad attempts at crosses and shots since he arrived. 

He's shite. His attempt at a cross in the first half on Sunday was pathetic, he should be nowhere near our squad. 

Just him. Are you serious. I could pick another 5 even getting woken from a drunken sleep.  How about Mugabi, McGinley, Aaron's, Spittal and Shields. 

[Big Stall]

13 hours ago, dennyc said:

So just to be clear...... and this is a genuine question as I am getting mixed messages....... Would you have preferred Alexander to still be our Manager? Bottom line.

 

 

At the end of days he was one of only two GA supporters remaining. So i would say it's a fair bet.

The guy is entitled to his opinion, even though he is totally wrong - in my opinion.......

[Kmcalpin]

13 hours ago, Spit_It_Out said:

Don't think a Well fan alive doesn't want Stevie to be successful not one one but if Hammel doesn't get into the top 6 with a squad that got into the top 6th is that failure?Cause players are more than capable of doing it comes down to way team has set up and tactics.I look at Callum Davidson what he done at St Johnstone  and no reason Stevie Hammel can't do that with us.

Your point of he fails he goes don't agree with that I honestly think should we get relegated the board would stick by him and let him have a chance of getting us back up I truly believe that.

I agree that we all want Stevie to be successful... I don't know any fan who doesn't.

Comparison with St Johnstone is a bit strange. A totally different footballing philosophy in Perth, where results are the end all and be all. Entertainment there doesn't enter into their equation.  Tom Wright and Callum Davidson are of the same school of thought. They won 2 cups by being hard to beat, solid, combative, smothering the opposition  and grinding results out.  If we want to emulate their success then we'd have to adopt the same approach.

[MJC]

15 hours ago, David said:

Basically, when we were winning games and putting points on the table we were lucky, and when we were losing games it's because we were rubbish. Zero credit to the manager and the team as a whole for the positive results during the season. It was all down to luck, Tony Watt's goals (which he scored in a total vacuum, of course. The rest of the team and the managers tactics played no part at all) and our overall league finish had nothing to do with the team and manager doing better than the teams around us over the entirely of the season, but was instead down to other teams being crap.

Honestly, the manager and team can't win when it comes to some fans. 

In the first half of last season we had a player who could get goals to turn draws into wins, losses into draws. If you think about Livingston away (2-1), Dundee, Ross County, Dundee Utd(H) all won by the odd goal and the common denominator was Tony Watt scoring goals. Without him in the 2nd half of the season we weren’t winning those corresponding fixtures and, without wanting to sound like a broken record, failed to record a league win until APRIL and only managed another two before the end of the season. And in that time I think I could count on one hand, barely, how many times we actually played well.

We were lucky to finish top six and qualify for Europe last season, no two ways about it. And when we got our arses handed to us by a LOI side losing 0-3 over two legs we were shown up for how poor a side we were and how lucky, spawny, jammy, call it what you like, we were to be in that competition. 

[Great Balls of Shire]

17 hours ago, steelboy said:

He's has had about 20 combined shockingly bad attempts at crosses and shots since he arrived. 

He's shite. His attempt at a cross in the first half on Sunday was pathetic, he should be nowhere near our squad. 

I've not been counting his shots and crosses , but if he's made a career out of professional football, plus the clips I saw when he signed , I don't think he's shite.

Your constant negativity is though, but it's what you're good at , so don't stop

[steelboy]

8 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

I've not been counting his shots and crosses , but if he's made a career out of professional football, plus the clips I saw when he signed , I don't think he's shite.

Your constant negativity is though, but it's what you're good at , so don't stop

Have you been watching though? He's not put a decent cross in since he joined 3 months ago. 

[MJC]

Most players can be made to look good, or at least not shite, from YouTube clips and indeed in the clips I saw of Morris when we signed him he looked decent.

Unfortunately any time I have actually seen him play in the flesh in a Motherwell jersey he has been absolutely rank rotten. Andy Roddie-esq almost.

[Spiderpig]

32 minutes ago, MJC_mkII said:

 

We were lucky to finish top six and qualify for Europe last season, no two ways about it. And when we got our arses handed to us by a LOI side losing 0-3 over two legs we were shown up for how poor a side we were and how lucky, spawny, jammy, call it what you like, we were to be in that competition. 

This " lucky , spawny, jammy" chat is utter shite the truth that people seem to conviently forget is that yes we were brutal from December onwards but in a league of 9 other teams who were equally as bad someone had to play well enough to grind out the results, pick up important points, win games etc to finish 2nd out of the 9, for a top 6 finish and European qualification which is what we did, luck had feck all to do with it.

[mfc]

7 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

This " lucky , spawny, jammy" chat is utter shite the truth that people seem to conviently forget is that yes we were brutal from December onwards but in a league of 9 other teams who were equally as bad someone had to play well enough to grind out the results, pick up important points, win games etc to finish 2nd out of the 9, for a top 6 finish and European qualification which is what we did, luck had feck all to do with it.

Spot on,I don't get the whole lucky chat either,over the course of a full season we finished 5th and that's where we deserved to be.

[David]

1 hour ago, Big Stall said:

At the end of days he was one of only two GA supporters remaining. So i would say it's a fair bet.

The guy is entitled to his opinion, even though he is totally wrong - in my opinion.......

No, don't make the mistake of thinking I believed Alexander was the man to take us forward long-term. I thought the timing of him going was insane, more so than him actually going. If the club had sacked him at the end of the season they'd have been able to bring someone new in and give them a full summer and transfer window.

I personally would have given him until end of October at the most to make the changes needed. He'd managed to secure 5th place, he'd kept us up. If we were still playing the way we were at the end of last season then you make the decision to move him on. 

I think we sort of botched the whole process by letting him go a few days before the new league season started. The fact he went so quickly suggests to me that there was already issues and the feeling that it wasn't going right, so I would say the board should have made that call earlier.

Again, not saying he was the man to take us forward, but I'm willing to bet we'd have had a wider range of potential managers available if we'd sacked him at the end of the season. We'll see if that process comes back to bite us on the arse come the end of the season.

I hope not, and at the moment I don't think it will.

45 minutes ago, MJC_mkII said:

In the first half of last season we had a player who could get goals to turn draws into wins, losses into draws. If you think about Livingston away (2-1), Dundee, Ross County, Dundee Utd(H) all won by the odd goal and the common denominator was Tony Watt scoring goals. Without him in the 2nd half of the season we weren’t winning those corresponding fixtures and, without wanting to sound like a broken record, failed to record a league win until APRIL and only managed another two before the end of the season. And in that time I think I could count on one hand, barely, how many times we actually played well.

We were lucky to finish top six and qualify for Europe last season, no two ways about it. And when we got our arses handed to us by a LOI side losing 0-3 over two legs we were shown up for how poor a side we were and how lucky, spawny, jammy, call it what you like, we were to be in that competition. 

Yes, but you're completely missing the point. How many other teams are relatively successful due to one of their better players being the common denominator? That's why we signed him, isn't it? To score the goals that make the difference? You can't say "yeah, well, if we didn't have Tony Watt scoring our goals..." because the fact is we did have Tony Watt. He was part of the team, it was nothing to do with luck.

Also, he didn't score those goals in a vacuum. His team-mates, the tactics, how he was deployed, those all played a part. If it was just the fact that we were lucky to have Tony Watt in our team then you'd surely see him do the same at Dundee United? Yet, he isn't.

Also, I can understand you saying that we were lucky to win a one-off game, or even a cup or something, but the league isn't about luck. We finished top six because we secured more points than six other teams over the course of the season up to the split. 

Again, it's this mindset of "we're lucky" when we accomplish anything, but "it's the team/manager/burrows fault" when we fail. The reluctance to give credit where it's due is baffling. 

[Coatsy]

The league does not lie we amassed enough points over the season to finish in the European spot for what that's worth. There was only one game i enjoyed Hearts at home where the team played well and pressed what was a team that were flying out the game never giving them a kick at the ball. I have no idea what went on after that the football was shocking IMO there was a fallout between Alexander and the dressing room which resulted is some strange selections that was the tombola.

The board should have managed this better IMO with either a player or managerial clear-out during the Summer.

The football since Hammel came in especially the early games was a big improvement and what many of us are looking for entertaining football. As long as we stay in this league and progress this philosophy i will be happy enough

Morris will never be accepted because he was Alexanders man, I thought he looked decent in his first outing for us its we should give him at least til the World Cup before judging. 

There is less talk on here about Moult and Arrons which ATM look like a waste of a wage, and that is my only doubt about Hammel if he can draw the players here that will make us a better team. 

If it goes all wrong for Hammel and i hope it does not we've already signed his replacement with managerial experience

[MJC]

Getting back to Sunday. I see a 15 year old has been charged for throwing an object onto the park during the Rangers game. This is becoming all too frequent from that particular area of the ground and it especially seems to be games against Rangers that bring the worst out in that ‘group’. A couple of years ago stuff was thrown at Morelos and the same thing happened the previous season at that very same section.

Hammell has felt the need to comment saying “conduct yourselves in a respectful manner while you’re here” ahead of the game tonight.

This is the same area of the ground and I’d wager the same group that frequently bleat on about over zealous stewarding and policing but nonsense like this keeps happening from them.