SLC quarter final Motherwell v Celtic 19/10/2022

[grizzlyg]

Penney has been a great signing, we actually have a proper left back after enduring Carroll and McGinley before that though I must stress I feel for them with their injury problems, I just don't rate them as players and wish them a speedy recovery 

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, Lobey_Dosser said:

This was always going to be an incredibly difficult week but I hoped we’d come out of it with a degree of positivity and a sense that we are heading in the right direction. Instead, the alarm bells are starting to ring. 

Our primary issue is the lack of quality in the squad, particularly from middle to front where we’ve been largely powderpuff since the night Sligo came to Fir Park. This will take some time to address and the gambles we took in the transfer market towards the end of August have evidently not paid off. 

That aside though, our approach to these last two games has been a cause for concern. I like Hammell a lot but I struggle to buy into his belief that we can look to impose a similar style of play against all levels of opposition, the consequences of which have seen us barely lay a glove on Celtic or an under-par Rangers. There has been little aggression and physicality in our play and we continue to fail to do the basics like tracking runners. The standard of goals we are losing is embarrassing. Big response needed against Aberdeen or much of the positivity from a month or so ago will be quickly forgotten. 

Pretty much agree with all of that. I didn't expect us to win tonight but was saddened by the lack of fight. In that respect, a new manager but the same old failing. As soon  as the first goal went in the heads went down. Oh, how we lack leadership on the pitch. Last season's failings, a weak defence and powderpuff attack have not been addressed. Yes, our gambles at the end of the transfer window have not come off. Most of that can be laid at Alexander's door, but not all.

Hammy is a rookie manager and is making the mistakes you'd expect a first season manager to do. I too am struggling to buy into his belief about style and one size fits all. We're hampered by injuries just now and I get that but I have the feeling we're not getting the best out of the players we do have, especially in midfield and to a lesser extent up front. Whether its the formation, the starting individuals, tactics, or the combination of players I just don't know, but something doesn't feel right.  

Yes, a big response is needed on Saturday. It won't define our season but it'll still be important.

[Erskine Alpha]

There was no pace tonight. Lamie looked very slow to react, slattery couldn't pick a pass and I don't get the McKinstry love he is slow and alway seems to throw his hands up instead of chasing the ball/player down. No pass marks from the team as I feel we have and are capable of better performances than that regardless of the opponents. And van veen is not the answer against teams at our level or higher, he gives up to easy I would rather we had a young and hungry guy up there to at least put pressure on the opposition defence/goalkeeper 

 

[ppower]

The majority of the squad have simply reverted back to what they were under Alexander. There was a small boost when Hammell came in.  Too many of the squad just are not good enough and no matter how much coaching they get the ability isn't there.  Last 5 league matches we have taken 3pts. That is a worse return over the past 5 games than any other team in the league.  We now face Aberdeen (h).  Dundee Utd (a) Hearts (a) and Celtic (h) Tough fixtures.

I have watched every one of Hammells post match interviews and he is totally out of his depth. A team sinking fast and he neither has the experience nor ability to halt it. All he ever says about the game in his interviews is that it was disappointing and we lost poor goals and at the wrong time, like there a right time to lose a goal. Rookie manager with rookie back room staff.  Early days in his management career but alarm bells are ringing loudly.

 

[MJC]

The sad reality is that the majority of the squad are of a poor standard and some of them are painfully out of their depth at this level. When you are pining for Joe Efford to get back to fitness then you know you are in bother.

We need to avoid relegation and then have a massive (and by massive I mean almost the entire squad) clear out and allow the manager the opportunity to try and rebuild.

[wellsince75]

9 hours ago, Coatsy said:

OUR LEVEL get a grip man we are or should be a Premier League Team that competes at that level if we can't compete against all the teams then we would be better dropping down a level just giving up and chucking it, 

What do you see our level as Morton, Dundee Ayr. We need players that are capable of winning at Premier league level top 10 this year and a clear out. We have wasted so much money on 3 year contracts for DROSS and CROCKS

Our level = most of teams in premier . Kilmarnock, county , st mirren .

I don’t expect us to take many points of the old firm , hearts .

in short I expect us to compete with teams of similar stature and finances . Occasionally we’ll take point of bigger clubs but I’m not going to get upset when we struggle against the old firm  

[MJC]

It’s not just that we struggle against the OF, we rarely even lay a glove on them and that’s the biggest issue for me. Rangers were there for the taking on Sunday yet at no point did we look as though we believed we could take them and last night we were beaten before the game started and lucky it only ended 4-0.

I know we are not going to compete against either of them and will lose the majority of games but it’s the manner we lose them that is most galling. There is definitely some kind of mental block on our part in these games nowadays.

[SteelmaninOZ]

8 hours ago, The African said:

Predictable outcome against a side with a budget and playing resources we can only ream of. Our season will not be defined by our results against the old firm.

The manager is having to deal with issues within the squad which are not of his making. Issues, I might add, that have been evident for some time and which  his predecessors failed to address. We need to be both patient and understanding as it is not possible for these problems to be fixed in an instant. I think there are genuine signs that we are heading in the right direction, and I genuinely believe that we will stay up this season. Hopefully this run of poor results will be arrested soon, and not become a self perpetuating spiral of negativity. We have a squad with some talent and it is up to them, with guidance from the coaching staff and support from the fans, to find a way to get us back on track. COYW!

I agree with all that you said. COYW!

[pretzel]

Like I said earlier in the thread the game was a weird one, we were going into a quarter final tie but it just didn't feel like that, when we played Aberdeen and Hearts in the respective cup competitions at this stages not so long ago the place was buzzing. How much dosh have Celtic spent this year? It must be close to 25 million then you add the few freebies and loanees they have, It actually makes you feel quite scunnered as they get there Y fronts pulled down each time they play in Europe but look like Barca domestically. Essentially they're paying well over the odds to hoover everything up domestically.

I started to get optimistic early on, Shields had a great run minutes in but his cross was well overhit, later on in similar circumstances he then went way too short but it was good to see we were at least getting forward. Also the shot that cracked the bar then the tame header follow up saved by Kelly and the Japanese guy screwing a tap in past the post you couldn't help but feel more optimistic that it might be our day, sadly however a defensive brain fart gifted them an opener. Lamie and Penney weren't happy with the ref about something but nothings been mentioned and I don't plan on revising the game, however I feel it must have been something to do with Lord Voldemort who was down injured. The second half started brightly, Penney brought out a fine save but again all the hard work was undone when we allowed them to have numerous pops at goal before they netted the second. Its actually amazing how jammy they were at times with rebounds etc all over the pitch constantly landing at a Celtic players feet.

I don't think the ref done too much wrong tbf but noticed how he was quick to give McGinn a yellow for a tumble in the box but failed to do the same with Taylor earlier in the match who went down in instalments. Plus the ball went out for a Celtic throw in front of Hammell and Taylor goes to take it like 20 feet away, Robertson tells him to go back but he proceeds to throw it anyway and he just lets the game go.

 

[Great Balls of Shire]

53 minutes ago, pretzel said:

Like I said earlier in the thread the game was a weird one, we were going into a quarter final tie but it just didn't feel like that, when we played Aberdeen and Hearts in the respective cup competitions at this stages not so long ago the place was buzzing. How much dosh have Celtic spent this year? It must be close to 25 million then you add the few freebies and loanees they have, It actually makes you feel quite scunnered as they get there Y fronts pulled down each time they play in Europe but look like Barca domestically. Essentially they're paying well over the odds to hoover everything up domestically.

I started to get optimistic early on, Shields had a great run minutes in but his cross was well overhit, later on in similar circumstances he then went way too short but it was good to see we were at least getting forward. Also the shot that cracked the bar then the tame header follow up saved by Kelly and the Japanese guy screwing a tap in past the post you couldn't help but feel more optimistic that it might be our day, sadly however a defensive brain fart gifted them an opener. Lamie and Penney weren't happy with the ref about something but nothings been mentioned and I don't plan on revising the game, however I feel it must have been something to do with Lord Voldemort who was down injured. The second half started brightly, Penney brought out a fine save but again all the hard work was undone when we allowed them to have numerous pops at goal before they netted the second. Its actually amazing how jammy they were at times with rebounds etc all over the pitch constantly landing at a Celtic players feet.

I don't think the ref done too much wrong tbf but noticed how he was quick to give McGinn a yellow for a tumble in the box but failed to do the same with Taylor earlier in the match who went down in instalments. Plus the ball went out for a Celtic throw in front of Hammell and Taylor goes to take it like 20 feet away, Robertson tells him to go back but he proceeds to throw it anyway and he just lets the game go.

 

Don't agree Celtic have been scudded in Europe, watched both of their home games and they weren't far away , missing a goalscorer, for sure.

Pointless really reviewing any perceived wrong   refereeing decision , we were well and truly horsed 

Re taps in too, if you've got fit, hungry players who want to get into box, chances are the ball is going to fall to them

Anyway , Saturday will be more of a measure of where we really are ....are we the team who took 5 off RC or horsed by Celtic?

 

 

 

[spudmfc]

8 hours ago, ppower said:

The majority of the squad have simply reverted back to what they were under Alexander. There was a small boost when Hammell came in.  Too many of the squad just are not good enough and no matter how much coaching they get the ability isn't there.  Last 5 league matches we have taken 3pts. That is a worse return over the past 5 games than any other team in the league.  We now face Aberdeen (h).  Dundee Utd (a) Hearts (a) and Celtic (h) Tough fixtures.

I have watched every one of Hammells post match interviews and he is totally out of his depth. A team sinking fast and he neither has the experience nor ability to halt it. All he ever says about the game in his interviews is that it was disappointing and we lost poor goals and at the wrong time, like there a right time to lose a goal. Rookie manager with rookie back room staff.  Early days in his management career but alarm bells are ringing loudly.

 

Aberdeen,who we've beaten already

Utd ,who we should've beat but for poor finishing

Hearts,anyone who saw that game will know the 3-0 was a false scoreline

Celtic,that's going to be a free hit

Yes they are tough games but if we play like I know we can I don't see why we can't pick up 5,6,7 points

[Yorkyred]

10 hours ago, steelboy said:

You can't blame Hammell for being focused on an Academy job then not delivering a successful transfer window at short notice. 

If he avoids relegation it's a great season. 

Back to your seasonal knicker wetting.

[Kmcalpin]

3 hours ago, MJC_mkII said:

I know we are not going to compete against either of them and will lose the majority of games but it’s the manner we lose them that is most galling. There is definitely some kind of mental block on our part in these games nowadays.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/23062895.celtic-level-motherwell-cant-compete-with-says-steven-hammell-laments-soft-goals-cup-loss/

Well, thats that then.

[grizzlyg]

Watched highlights and taking nothing away from Sellik as there is no denying they are an excellent side but what I can't accept are the cheap goals we keep conceding.

1) Shields not tracking the run of Taylor, his tracking back is as good as his ability to cross a ball!!

2) good finish from Abada but bizarre punch from Kelly for 1st save, but Kelly keeps us in games almost every week so odd mistake will happen

3) good skill by Hatate but Lamies attempt at tackling him shocking but again another player who has been playing well most weeks

4) words fail me so not even worth discussing 

 

 

[2/6 tae get in]

36 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Watched highlights and taking nothing away from Sellik as there is no denying they are an excellent side but what I can't accept are the cheap goals we keep conceding.

1) Shields not tracking the run of Taylor, his tracking back is as good as his ability to cross a ball!!

2) good finish from Abada but bizarre punch from Kelly for 1st save, but Kelly keeps us in games almost every week so odd mistake will happen

3) good skill by Hatate but Lamies attempt at tackling him shocking but again another player who has been playing well most weeks

4) words fail me so not even worth discussing 

 

 

Yes a lot of what you say i agree with. Cheap goals being the biggest problem ,but would add 'poor finishing' .

[MJC]

43 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/23062895.celtic-level-motherwell-cant-compete-with-says-steven-hammell-laments-soft-goals-cup-loss/

Well, thats that then.

This outlook runs right through the club up to the very top imo.

It’s no coincidence that so many managers, players of the club come out with this same old line and excuses. The only ones that didn’t were Baraclough and Robinson when he first took over but even Robinson came round to the club’s “we can’t compete” viewpoint and mindset after a year or so.

It’s also no coincidence that our only victories against Rangers in the last two decades came under those two managers, ie. two men who were outsiders to the Scottish game.

[Kmcalpin]

13 minutes ago, MJC_mkII said:

This outlook runs right through the club up to the very top imo.

It’s no coincidence that so many managers, players of the club come out with this same old line and excuses. The only ones that didn’t were Baraclough and Robinson when he first took over but even Robinson came round to the club’s “we can’t compete” viewpoint and mindset after a year or so.

It’s also no coincidence that our only victories against Rangers in the last two decades came under those two managers, ie. two men who were outsiders to the Scottish game.

We all know that beating either side of the gruesome twosome is a huge task and to do so takes a specific set of circumstances to occur at the same time.  Very few disagree with that. There's no disgrace in getting beaten by either Celtic or Sevco. However how on earth does a manager lift and motivate his charges, not to mention the fans, for the next Celtic game, and there's one coming up shortly?  If thats Hammy's view why should the fans turn up for the next Celtic home game?

We've heard this type of comment many times before from different managers and its counterproductive. 

[MJC]

Exactly and if that is the club’s view on games against the OF then they should deduct them from the season ticket prices and save everyone money as well as the time and effort to go to them.

This “we’re punching above our weight” mindset goes all the way back to Terry Butcher. He was one of the worst for coming out with self defeating talk before games against either of them, especially Rangers but you never heard him talk like that when he was at ICT.

[grizzlyg]

Yep quite annoyed with Hammy and his comments, of course it's a hard ask but if you have that attitude then what is the point of us turning up for OF games, maybe he can refund me my £22 seeing as we obviously were never going to win.

[spudmfc]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

Watched highlights and taking nothing away from Sellik as there is no denying they are an excellent side but what I can't accept are the cheap goals we keep conceding.

1) Shields not tracking the run of Taylor, his tracking back is as good as his ability to cross a ball!!

2) good finish from Abada but bizarre punch from Kelly for 1st save, but Kelly keeps us in games almost every week so odd mistake will happen

3) good skill by Hatate but Lamies attempt at tackling him shocking but again another player who has been playing well most weeks

4) words fail me so not even worth discussing 

 

 

All preventable goals

1)yes you could point the finger at shields but the 3 attempted clearances from Goss mckinstrey and mcginn all very poor

2)the save was ok from Kelly,was a bit of pace and movement but it's fell into the middle of 5 of our players and landed at the feet of one of only 2 of theirs 

3)same as your comment

4)mcginn loses it,Goss and lamie leave it to each other,just so many what ifs,bottom line is we don't have the finances to compete,they ripped us a new one last night and will continue to do so for years to come

[texanwellfan]

Mostly doom and gloom but I’d say so far our only screw ups are St Johnstone and Killie games. 

[Richie]

This outlook runs right through the club up to the very top imo.
It’s no coincidence that so many managers, players of the club come out with this same old line and excuses. The only ones that didn’t were Baraclough and Robinson when he first took over but even Robinson came round to the club’s “we can’t compete” viewpoint and mindset after a year or so.
It’s also no coincidence that our only victories against Rangers in the last two decades came under those two managers, ie. two men who were outsiders to the Scottish game.

Totally. For all his faults, Baraclough's ignorance to the sycophancy/deference towards Rangers won us the play-offs.
Imagine the vibe coming out of the club had McCall been in charge for that fixture.





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[Richie]

Last night (and Sun)we seemed just to be a yard off the press. Celtic were tying themselves in knots at times passing it along the back 4 and had the front 3 pressed that bit higher/faster we might have got in - perfect example being the McKinstry chance.
Also frustrating was the final ball when we got into wide positions.
For the last goal, Football 101 is to clear your lines and ask questions later. Rather than avoiding each other that ball should have been away whether they collided or not.
Seems harsh, but these are things we can control (as was not tracking the run at the 1st).

Usual ref moans as well. Generally decent game, but:
For 1st goal Mooy had a head-knock and game should have been stopped. If you see Lammie he is distracted and gesturing to the ref. Maybe a bit straw-clutchy, but definitely remember a similar head-knock call going against us recently.
I'd like to see the early doors Kyogo challenge on Lammie again. Not much of it was made at the time, but one of the replays shown it was 2-footed into Lammies shin. Would have expected a card there.

Main problem at the moment is our options up front.
Is trying Robbie Mahon a shout?

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[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

Yep quite annoyed with Hammy and his comments, of course it's a hard ask but if you have that attitude then what is the point of us turning up for OF games, maybe he can refund me my £22 seeing as we obviously were never going to win.

Does anybody truly believe that every time we play the uglies the players and management start with the"right lads we're not going to beat this mob today, so take it easy and don't worry " attitude?  For me that's utter bollocks , Hammell's comment for me were referring to playing ability and they are all true, Celtic in particular are many levels above us, financially,  playing ability, coaching etc and as harsh as it sounds we are nowhere near them. Yes every team is beatable and we have done that on many occasions but the players want to win every game and on most occasions against them that's not possible as they have better players than us and always will have.

As long as the uglies are spending tens of millions each year to dominate domestic football in Scotland the other teams start each season playing for 3rd and that situation will never change. So I can't see why people are getting  stressed about last night we were ripped a new one by a far superior team, who in all honesty should have scored a few more goals as i said previously our season is never defined by results against the uglies anything we get is a bonus, but the other 9 teams are our targets, 3rd place best of the rest finish, Euro qualification,  and a bit of luck in cup draws would be nice.

[Yorkyred]

1 minute ago, Spiderpig said:

Does anybody truly believe that every time we play the uglies the players and management start with the"right lads we're not going to beat this mob today, so take it easy and don't worry " attitude?  For me that's utter bollocks , Hammell's comment for me were referring to playing ability and they are all true, Celtic in particular are many levels above us, financially,  playing ability, coaching etc and as harsh as it sounds we are nowhere near them. Yes every team is beatable and we have done that on many occasions but the players want to win every game and on most occasions against them that's not possible as they have better players than us and always will have.

As long as the uglies are spending tens of millions each year to dominate domestic football in Scotland the other teams start each season playing for 3rd and that situation will never change. So I can't see why people are getting  stressed about last night we were ripped a new one by a far superior team, who in all honesty should have scored a few more goals as i said previously our season is never defined by results against the uglies anything we get is a bonus, but the other 9 teams are our targets, 3rd place best of the rest finish, Euro qualification,  and a bit of luck in cup draws would be nice.

I would agree, it was a statement of the obvious, nothing the rest of us are not saying anyway. He was not trying to be defeatist simply being honest. The old firm themselves say the same thing about some of their European apposition after they get a doing, nothing different. What we need to concentrate on is doing the basics which in itself is effected by far superior opposition and have that mental toughness. We could do with a couple of real leaders which would make a difference.