Hearts v Motherwell 06/11/2022

[Yorkyred]

10 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

A tad harsh and perhapsn impetuous Greg, but yes you do have a point, and a valid one at that.  At what stage, or date, do fans stop blaming Alexander for absolutely everything, including today's tactics, and accept that Hammy is maybe at least 1% responsible? We're making the same mistakes and have the same weaknesses game after game. The fact that he is a very popular former player shouldn't cloud folks' judgement.  I've stopped listening to his post match interviews as they're tedious and all the same. As for today, why did we sit back at 2-2 and let Hearts come at us?  Losing 3 goals to a ten man team just isn't acceptable and  serious questions need to be asked.

The squad does have serious weaknesses especially in central defence, centre midfield and up front. However its the lack of leadership and character that worries many.  Something is not right. Having said that, we do have some decent players who just aren't performing and who have gone backwards - Kelly, Slattery and VV for example. I'm not saying its all Hammy's fault but.....

We are stretched for bodies but we do have alternatives in midfield and I'm not sure he's getting the best out of what we have. The personnel and formation with a lone striker just doesn't seem right and it isn't working.

 

You sum it up perfectly for me mate, I get that people are protective because of who the manager is but we’re now a few weeks down the line and if anything we’re actually getting worse. I just don’t believe he is getting the best out of what he has available and we’re still making the same basic mistakes. Tracking back, workrate, basic organisation, putting in a tackle, confidence levels seem to have dropped, the players don’t appear to be responding to our manager the way I would have expected. Thank god for the three points last week but even that was a huge struggle against 10 men. You are correct in stating there are no leaders and that’s not his fault but I’m genuinely worried in a way I never have been in the past that we could actually be relegated if we allow things to carry on sliding.

[SteelmaninOZ]

The gaffer says 
 

 

[wellsince75]

Appreciate I'm in the pro Hammy camp.    I don't believe we're far of being pretty decent team. 

We've lost marginally to several teams with much bigger budgets than ours.  When we see players making basics mistakes , that's not for me about training and tactics, it's because Hearts and other clubs pay 2-3x our salary and have better players. 

Today could have gone either way, basics mistakes are costing us and have been for the best part of the year.  We need to improve the quality of defence but overall I suspect we're good enough to be anywhere in the league from 10th -6th. Problem being, that's the same for several clubs.   

Losing games suck, bad runs suck.  Getting some reinforcements in Jan may help.  Equally I'm quite enthused about the prospect of VV, Moult, McKinstry as a front 3.  That could be pretty exciting.

[Stevie73]

6 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

Appreciate I'm in the pro Hammy camp.    I don't believe we're far of being pretty decent team. 

We've lost marginally to several teams with much bigger budgets than ours.  When we see players making basics mistakes , that's not for me about training and tactics, it's because Hearts and other clubs pay 2-3x our salary and have better players. 

Today could have gone either way, basics mistakes are costing us and have been for the best part of the year.  We need to improve the quality of defence but overall I suspect we're good enough to be anywhere in the league from 10th -6th. Problem being, that's the same for several clubs.   

Losing games suck, bad runs suck.  Getting some reinforcements in Jan may help.  Equally I'm quite enthused about the prospect of VV, Moult, McKinstry as a front 3.  That could be pretty exciting.

I’m with you wanting Hammell to succeed, but it’s poor goals every week, shocking mistakes and a very weak static midfield, 5 in in January is a must or we are bottom two.

[GazzyB]

Every year with the "we'll finish in the bottom two" chat. Every year. In October we lost to Aberdeen, Hibs, Rangers & Celtic, three of which by one goal. We also put 5 past Ross County and beat Dundee Utd away from home. We also have a very favourable run of fixtures after the World Cup.

 

Fresh knickers are required.

[wellup83]

Lamie is a good centre half but sadly the only one we have. Mugabi out of favour and I'm sorry but Sol is what my late father would label a carthorse. What he's doing with his arms when he conceded the pen is beyond me. If we can get Moult match sharp and keep him fit then he has to start alongside van veen. VV is a man down up top on his own and the least said about Shields the better. 

[mfc]

37 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

A tad harsh and perhaps impetuous Greg, but yes you do have a point, and a valid one at that.  At what stage, or date, do fans stop blaming Alexander for absolutely everything, including today's tactics, and accept that Hammy is maybe at least 1% responsible? We're making the same mistakes and have the same weaknesses game after game. The fact that he is a very popular former player shouldn't cloud folks' judgement.  I've stopped listening to his post match interviews as they're tedious and all the same. As for today, why did we sit back at 2-2 and let Hearts come at us?  Losing 3 goals to a ten man team just isn't acceptable and  serious questions need to be asked.

The squad does have serious weaknesses especially in central defence, centre midfield and up front. However its the lack of leadership and character that worries many.  Something is not right. Having said that, we do have some decent players who just aren't performing and who have gone backwards - Kelly, Slattery and VV for example. I'm not saying its all Hammy's fault but.....

We are stretched for bodies but we do have alternatives in midfield and I'm not sure he's getting the best out of what we have. The personnel and formation with a lone striker just doesn't seem right and it isn't working.

 

Really good post,I wanted alexander gone and there's no doubt hammell was chucked in at the deep end on the eve of the new season but he wanted the job full time and the he's the man the club entrusted with the managers position so anything happening now is totally down to him,we can't keep blaming alexander forever.i said when it went to 2-2 that I hope we don't think it's job done and sit back and that's exactly what we did,either the players,manager or both though that was the right decision and it backfired big time,that game was there for the taking but despite being in the ascendency we were happy to take the point and it bit us on the arse,between that and the pitiful second half performance against ten men last week,it's simply not acceptable.theres problems throughout the team in the current set up,the defence gets no protection from the midfield,who in turn offer very little going forward,we don't have the wide players to compliment a lone striker,we really need to shake things up.i fully expect celtic to beat us yet again but surely hammell wont set us up the same way again,I think we're at the point we need to be going with two up top and going more solid in midfield.

[ppower]

3 hours ago, spudmfc said:

Yeah we've fucked up yet again..but radio talking bout decisions....ref and VAR,Gordon 2nd yellow..not given.....Goss fouled in box but deemed offside..no VAR on either decision bcos flag went up....keep your flag down from now on ..clowns the lot of them

If we had won the game nobody would be talking about VAR. It's not infallible and is still subjective. It only allows slow motion views of the incident and someone still has to call it.  Sure Goss was onside but I didn't see enough for a penalty.  The Moult penalty was 50/50 but forwards are always given the decision.  Solholm's was a penalty under current guidelines.  Whether you agree with the guidelines it is applied as soon as your arm is outside the line of your body.  Excuses are made by teams who lose,  but the simple fact is that at 2-2 we should have fell back into our shape (what shape you may ask, but that's a whole new topic) and made it difficult for them to play through us. We didn't and that is poor tactically. Instead we let a guy run fifty yards to cross the ball without a challenge. We let Tillman wonder past half the team to score for Rangers. Sure the defence isn't great but there is no tracking back from midfielders. Not one of them has pace or can tackle. There lies the problem. Games are won and lost in the midfield and I am afraid to say we get out battled and out run in every single game.

[Welldaft Mk1]

2 minutes ago, wellup83 said:

Lamie is a good centre half but sadly the only one we have. Mugabi out of favour and I'm sorry but Sol is what my late father would label a carthorse. What he's doing with his arms when he conceded the pen is beyond me. If we can get Moult match sharp and keep him fit then he has to start alongside van veen. VV is a man down up top on his own and the least said about Shields the better. 

Just watched the highlights. Gordon should have been off the pitch and that was a huge fuck up which ultimately cost us.

All that said Sols best impression of an orang-utan was impressive. 89 minutes gone. Every player if the Premiership down south is literally trying to glue their arms to their sides when a ball is played near them in the box. Not Sol. Such a cheap goal to lose. 

[ppower]

3 hours ago, GazzyB said:

I also agree that it's a shambolic decision not to send off Gordon but VAR can't do anything about it.

Correct. It is only if the referee has made a clear and obvious error. And that decision was not a clear and obvious error no matter how much you wish or want it to be.  VAR isn't meant to challenge every decision the referee makes 

[ppower]

2 hours ago, fizoxy said:

Spittal is slow, but he also scored our equalizer and has a bunch of assists this year, so wage thief is a bit much. Having a squad where he is an automatic pick isnt helping us though.

Our biggest problem right now is that we have no pace at all, and sometimes pace can help paper over the cracks when mistakes are made.
 

Spittal may not be good enough but FFS he isn't any worse than Goss, Slattery, Cornelius, Tierney, Maguire or Morris.  If I had to list there deficiencies from physique to stamina I would be here all night.  Suffice to say not one of them should be a professional footballer. Look at their record for other clubs when you have a spare 10 minutes. Spittal has played the most games out of all of them and scored the most goals. So yes, I agree  he isn't good enough for the Premier League but the rest aren't even good enough for the Championship.

[spudmfc]

21 minutes ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

Just watched the highlights. Gordon should have been off the pitch and that was a huge fuck up which ultimately cost us.

All that said Sols best impression of an orang-utan was impressive. 89 minutes gone. Every player if the Premiership down south is literally trying to glue their arms to their sides when a ball is played near them in the box. Not Sol. Such a cheap goal to lose. 

Yeah we can lay blame at sol for the pen...but jeez he was thrown under the bus by his team mates in front of him,guys just hoping that someone else will deal with it rather than take the initiative and make things just a little more difficult for the attacker

[GrahamH]

19 minutes ago, ppower said:

Correct. It is only if the referee has made a clear and obvious error. And that decision was not a clear and obvious error no matter how much you wish or want it to be.  VAR isn't meant to challenge every decision the referee makes 

VAR would never get involved in a second yellow like that  - only straight red offences.

[Spiderpig]

Just now, ppower said:

Correct. It is only if the referee has made a clear and obvious error. And that decision was not a clear and obvious error no matter how much you wish or want it to be.  VAR isn't meant to challenge every decision the referee makes 

That's what annoys me though " not a clear and obvious error" the ref done feck all when Watt went in studs up last week  so VAR checked and decided it was a red card, so they can get involved if they want to. 

I've not seen the highlights from today but the penalty award will have been Checked by VAR  so how can Moult being denied a clear goal scoring opportunity not be a 2nd booking for Gordon and therefore a sending off...for me that was a clear and obvious error so VAR should have intervened.

Would Gordon have been booked for the pen  if he had not already been booked, almost certainly he would so another obvious error. VAR was meant to improve refereeing in Scotland but its the same sub standard officials running it so its improved feck all, and cost us valuable points today, I was all for VAR but from what I've seen so far it's a shambles mainly down to the standard of officials running it, and that needs to improve drastically. 

[ppower]

2 hours ago, couttsy said:

Just back from Tynecastle and to be honest when you’re in the ground it’s hard to tell if he got the big decisions right or wrong, but if he decides Gordon brought Moult down (and he clearly did) then he should yellow card him as a matter of routine. We all know the reasons he didn’t is because they were already down to 10 and that it was Craig Gordon the Scotland goalkeeper, disgraceful.

It's not a cast iron yellow card if the referee decides he made an honest attempt to get the ball. In these incidents the forward always leaves his foot in for the goal keeper to catch. Not criticising Moult, he is just doing what all good forwards do. But every attempt by the goalie in this situation to get the ball is not always a yellow card. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

3 hours ago, GazzyB said:

I also agree that it's a shambolic decision not to send off Gordon but VAR can't do anything about it.

In the three matches we've played since VAR was introduced we've seen three game changing decisions that were wrong.  Penalty against Aberdeen not given, Watt sent off for nothing and Gordon not getting sent off today.

We are paying a 6 figure sum annually for VAR and it's not made a blind bit of difference except to make the matches even more unwatchable with long stoppages.

[spudmfc]

2 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

That's what annoys me though " not a clear and obvious error" the ref done feck all when Watt went in studs up last week  so VAR checked and decided it was a red card, so they can get involved if they want to. 

I've not seen the highlights from today but the penalty award will have been Checked by VAR  so how can Moult being denied a clear goal scoring opportunity not be a 2nd booking for Gordon and therefore a sending off...for me that was a clear and obvious error so VAR should have intervened.

Would Gordon have been booked for the pen  if he had not already been booked, almost certainly he would so another obvious error. VAR was meant to improve refereeing in Scotland but its the same sub standard officials running it so its improved feck all, and cost us valuable points today, I was all for VAR but from what I've seen so far it's a shambles mainly down to the standard of officials running it, and that needs to improve drastically. 

It wasn't clear that Louie would've scored 3defenders covering and the ball running wide of goal..defo a pen though,but the rules now are just so confusing,we've had different opinions all night on here

[GrahamH]

Just now, spudmfc said:

It wasn't clear that Louie would've scored 3defenders covering and the ball running wide of goal..defo a pen though,but the rules now are just so confusing,we've had different opinions all night on here

It doesn’t matter whether it was a clear goalscoring opportunity or not - if Gordon goes for the ball and fouls Moult (like what happened today) the worst that can happen is a penalty and yellow card.  A straight red doesn’t come into the equation any more.

[grizzlyg]

What is really annoying me is the manner of the goals over past 5 or 6 games, a lot down to the attitude and mindset of the player. And we need to find a new formation, it just ain't happening.

I would also love to experience a feckin home win, the one league win we had I was in holiday 

[mfc]

3 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

What is really annoying me is the manner of the goals over past 5 or 6 games, a lot down to the attitude and mindset of the player. And we need to find a new formation, it just ain't happening.

I would also love to experience a feckin home win, the one league win we had I was in holiday 

Aye a home win would be nice,that livi game feels like a long time ago.i fully expect to get beat off celtic but with st mirren and kilmarnock coming soon,we really need to be bucking our ideas up at home.

[spudmfc]

12 minutes ago, GrahamH said:

It doesn’t matter whether it was a clear goalscoring opportunity or not - if Gordon goes for the ball and fouls Moult (like what happened today) the worst that can happen is a penalty and yellow card.  A straight red doesn’t come into the equation any more.

I agree with u ..anywhere else on the park it's a foul and a yellow..the ref simply bottled it..

[GazzyB]

29 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

That's what annoys me though " not a clear and obvious error" the ref done feck all when Watt went in studs up last week  so VAR checked and decided it was a red card, so they can get involved if they want to. 

I've not seen the highlights from today but the penalty award will have been Checked by VAR  so how can Moult being denied a clear goal scoring opportunity not be a 2nd booking for Gordon and therefore a sending off...for me that was a clear and obvious error so VAR should have intervened.

Would Gordon have been booked for the pen  if he had not already been booked, almost certainly he would so another obvious error. VAR was meant to improve refereeing in Scotland but its the same sub standard officials running it so its improved feck all, and cost us valuable points today, I was all for VAR but from what I've seen so far it's a shambles mainly down to the standard of officials running it, and that needs to improve drastically. 

I share your frustrations, but our grievance isn't with Clancy or whoever the VAR official was; it's with the absolute fucking moron that came up with the rule that VAR can't intervene in this specific situation.

 

It's just unbelievable Clancy didn't send him off, but for some fucked up reason VAR can't intervene. These guys don't make the rules, they just have to follow them.

[gaz7]

12 minutes ago, ppower said:

It's not a cast iron yellow card if the referee decides he made an honest attempt to get the ball. In these incidents the forward always leaves his foot in for the goal keeper to catch. Not criticising Moult, he is just doing what all good forwards do. But every attempt by the goalie in this situation to get the ball is not always a yellow card. 

Think your wrong there the rules are yellow card awarded if :

• denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by an offence which was an attempt to play the ball and the referee awards a penalty kick

So on that basis I'm sure we all agree it was an obvious goalscoring opportunity. 

if he didn't attempt to play ball then a red card.

We can all see problems within our team but this whole thing that the ref didn't affect game today is wrong it's not excuses it's factual . I was disappointed hammell didn't call it out more after game but I understand why he didn't due to fines and suspension maybe.

Var is there to see if anything is missed and for most part gets it right.

What I feel is happening now is ref wants var to make big decisions and var guys in studio or wherever they are want ref to make them leaving both not knowing who's in charge.

Big decisions today were

Gordon 2nd yellow? nothing to do with var. Clancy didn't want/scared to put them down to 9 men which is rules as stated above. Bad refereeing 

Offside with goss? I was adamant at time he ran from deep and as we see in England if linesman are unsure they leave flag down. Not here and so var can't do anything. Bad linesman call

Sibbick hand ball penalty? Impossible to tell at game but he is on goalline nearly and even if hand is near body if it hits his hand should be penalty .  Unsure on this and they didn't show it on Sportscene. 

Just gutted today as I honestly feel we were cheated. Refs can make wrong decisions and I have no problem with that but clancy just never applied the rules which I am sure he was aware of.

 

[couttsy]

1 hour ago, ppower said:

It's not a cast iron yellow card if the referee decides he made an honest attempt to get the ball. In these incidents the forward always leaves his foot in for the goal keeper to catch. Not criticising Moult, he is just doing what all good forwards do. But every attempt by the goalie in this situation to get the ball is not always a yellow card. 

Moult absolutely plays for it, no doubt, but goalkeepers fouling strikers in that way happens the length and breath of the country every weekend and they get yellow carded as a matter of course. 

[dennyc]

I'm pretty sure the change in the Law was to remove the situation where a player was red carded AND a penalty given IF a genuine attempt was made by the defender/goalie to win the ball. In that situation a yellow card is sufficient and should be issued. So 100% agree, Gordon should have received a yellow card as soon as the penalty was awarded. Clancy took it upon himself to ensure Gordon stayed in the game. But will the invisible/silent Head of Referees ask questions or even make comment? No chance. No doubt Motherwell will seek clarification and be brushed off again.