Hearts v Motherwell 06/11/2022

[fizoxy]

Think your wrong there the rules are yellow card awarded if :

• denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by an offence which was an attempt to play the ball and the referee awards a penalty kick

So on that basis I'm sure we all agree it was an obvious goalscoring opportunity. 

if he didn't attempt to play ball then a red card.

We can all see problems within our team but this whole thing that the ref didn't affect game today is wrong it's not excuses it's factual . I was disappointed hammell didn't call it out more after game but I understand why he didn't due to fines and suspension maybe.

Var is there to see if anything is missed and for most part gets it right.

What I feel is happening now is ref wants var to make big decisions and var guys in studio or wherever they are want ref to make them leaving both not knowing who's in charge.

Big decisions today were

Gordon 2nd yellow? nothing to do with var. Clancy didn't want/scared to put them down to 9 men which is rules as stated above. Bad refereeing 

Offside with goss? I was adamant at time he ran from deep and as we see in England if linesman are unsure they leave flag down. Not here and so var can't do anything. Bad linesman call

Sibbick hand ball penalty? Impossible to tell at game but he is on goalline nearly and even if hand is near body if it hits his hand should be penalty .  Unsure on this and they didn't show it on Sportscene. 

Just gutted today as I honestly feel we were cheated. Refs can make wrong decisions and I have no problem with that but clancy just never applied the rules which I am sure he was aware of.

 

Goss was onside, but since it was called on the field, nothing that happens after that counts. That's why linesmen have been waiting to make the call until the play has played out. I didn't think about that at the time. I hate that they do that, but wish they did it this time :-)

The sibbick handball would have been very soft, point blank and his hand was in his bodyline.

KVVs offisde was way closer than I thought when I watched it back, still off though.

[GrahamH]

10 minutes ago, fizoxy said:

Goss was onside, but since it was called on the field, nothing that happens after that counts. That's why linesmen have been waiting to make the call until the play has played out. I didn't think about that at the time. I hate that they do that, but wish they did it this time :-)

The sibbick handball would have been very soft, point blank and his hand was in his bodyline.

KVVs offisde was way closer than I thought when I watched it back, still off though.
 

The linesman doesn’t make the call, the referee does. Even if the linesman puts his flag up the play doesn’t stop until the whistle goes. Did Clancy blow before the penalty claim?

[Kmcalpin]

13 hours ago, wellsince75 said:

 Equally I'm quite enthused about the prospect of VV, Moult, McKinstry as a front 3.  That could be pretty exciting.

You're aware that Hammy said recently that we signed Louis Moult on loan knowing full well that he would probably never be fit enough to play a full 90 minutes for us?

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, ppower said:

Spittal may not be good enough but FFS he isn't any worse than Goss, Slattery, Cornelius, Tierney, Maguire or Morris.  If I had to list there deficiencies from physique to stamina I would be here all night.  Suffice to say not one of them should be a professional footballer. Look at their record for other clubs when you have a spare 10 minutes. Spittal has played the most games out of all of them and scored the most goals. So yes, I agree  he isn't good enough for the Premier League but the rest aren't even good enough for the Championship.

Thats a sweeping statement. I agree about Morris and Maguire, but not about the rest. In any event they're all different kinds of player. Slattery is our best midfielder and he's a good Premiership standard, but he's not performing just now - we can only guess why. Goss too is a decent player but he requires the right formation and players beside him, but thats not happening right now. Tierney is work in progress and not ready for regular first team football yet. Again not being used correctly, when he has appeared. Cornelius is a decent player who needs gametime.  He brings energy and drive to the midfield which is what we need at the moment. 

Not sure about Spittal either way - what is his best position? He's not a winger and isn't suited to playing just behind Van Veen.    

[wunderwell]

I like the few definitions of madness posts from earlier..........2 up top please.  Even if Moult is not the player he was the style of the second half play was more dangerous.

Midfield needs industry and in Cornelius we have this from the bench.

[ppower]

2 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Thats a sweeping statement. I agree about Morris and Maguire, but not about the rest. In any event they're all different kinds of player. Slattery is our best midfielder and he's a good Premiership standard, but he's not performing just now - we can only guess why. Goss too is a decent player but he requires the right formation and players beside him, but thats not happening right now. Tierney is work in progress and not ready for regular first team football yet. Again not being used correctly, when he has appeared. Cornelius is a decent player who needs gametime.  He brings energy and drive to the midfield which is what we need at the moment. 

Not sure about Spittal either way - what is his best position? He's not a winger and isn't suited to playing just behind Van Veen.    

They may all be different types of player.  Spittal has 2 goals and 2 assists. That is the best record of our midfield and as I said he isn't good enough.  I stand by my statement none of our midfielders are good enough. 

[Kat]

That was a really frustrating game for a variety of reasons. I actually thought we started the game well before Hearts grew into it, they missed some glorious chances before we managed to gain control again, typically though when they went down to ten men it's like we just forget how to play, mentally somethings up with that. It was really frustrating watching them spray the ball about finding space it honestly looked like we were the man down.

Also to get stung with goals before and right after half time was a kick in the tadger, I'm not planning to sit through the highlights of that game again but at Hearts first goal it looked like Halliday clearly headed the ball out only to be given another corner, obviously we should be defending better but that was just one of some horrible calls. I don't know what Snodgrass was trying to do with McGinn as he looked to dive across him and miss then got up and done it again as he tried to hit the ball resulting in an injury but no foul was given. Hopefully that's not a long term layoff.

When Moult came on we looked more direct and with more urgency and emphasis getting forward, it's baffling that Craig Gordon didn't get a second yellow at the penalty incident, Clancy wasn't long in whipping it out for Moult when he was trying to retrieve the ball after scoring. It was typical that Van Veen scored a stunner but it was just offside, but it was a nice assist by McKinstry to setup Spittal for the equaliser.

I know VAR looked at the penalty decisions so I suppose I can't argue but Moult unleashed a powerful volley which was on target which struck Sibbick's arm which was in an unnatural position, I'm assuming this wasn't awarded as it was at such close range while Solholm's was a tad reminscent of the one Hearts got away with against Celtic, his arms are down by his side in a completely natural position but hits him when he swivels to block a shot, defenders will need to get into the habit of playing with their hands behind their backs. Aberdeen and Hearts must be the only sides enjoying VAR atm.

Anyway Celtic and Willie Collum await us on Wednesday night.

 

[Kat]

11 hours ago, wellup83 said:

Lamie is a good centre half but sadly the only one we have. Mugabi out of favour and I'm sorry but Sol is what my late father would label a carthorse. What he's doing with his arms when he conceded the pen is beyond me.

Just my opinion but I feel like Solholm has been the better of the centre backs by far this season, Lamie had a fantastic 2021/22 season but some brain farts have crept back into his game recently. As for the penalty Sol's arms are down by his side in a natural position and he swivels at the last second which leaves the gap between his arms and body, it's like what's he suppose to do. Defenders will need to get in the habit of having their hands behind their back in those instances.  

[ropy]

8 hours ago, GrahamH said:

The linesman doesn’t make the call, the referee does. Even if the linesman puts his flag up the play doesn’t stop until the whistle goes. Did Clancy blow before the penalty claim?

The linesman didn’t flag until the end of the play but I think the ref gave handball against Goss while he was on the ground.

[ropy]

I can understand the reasoning behind most of the ref’s decisions but it was an incorrectly awarded corner that led to the first goal.

[Great Balls of Shire]

21 minutes ago, ropy said:

I can understand the reasoning behind most of the ref’s decisions but it was an incorrectly awarded corner that led to the first goal.

Apart from soft red for hearts, not sending Gordon off, Goss onside , corner incorrectly given. He had a reasonable game 

That's a different issue to us being so weak and unprofessional

We get the officials our game deserves 

 

 

 

 

[Welldaft Mk1]

24 minutes ago, ropy said:

I can understand the reasoning behind most of the ref’s decisions but it was an incorrectly awarded corner that led to the first goal.

That is as maybe. But that will happen quite a lot. 

Then you just have to ask your defence to defend and not let a midfielder get a header in between your two Centre backs. What is more galling is that it was a header that could have gone anywhere. But just so happens to loop into the top corner. Our defending is woeful but luck is and was not on our side with that one. 

[Spiderpig]

2 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Apart from soft red for hearts, not sending Gordon off, Goss onside , corner incorrectly given. He had a reasonable game 

That's a different issue to us being so weak and unprofessional

We get the officials our game deserves 

 

 

 

 

We get the officials our game deserves,,,,,,,  what a feckin ridiculous statement  to make ffs. The officials not doing their job properly  cost us points yesterday,  they've always been poor and even now with the technology to help them they are still making a James Hunt of it every week.

Decisions are made that cost teams points and we get no explanations  from the officials  as to why they were made, with no comeback or sanctions  on the officials involved, the whole system is rotten to the core.

[Kmcalpin]

13 hours ago, wellup83 said:

Lamie is a good centre half but sadly the only one we have. Mugabi out of favour and I'm sorry but Sol is what my late father would label a carthorse. What he's doing with his arms when he conceded the pen is beyond me.

Lamie is another player who has regressed this season.  In my view, and its only my view, we need 2 first pick central defenders. Lamie is the best of a poor lot. In an ideal world he'd be ok as back up, as he was at Livingston, but thats about it.   

[gaz7]

A big thing with VAR is I thought any big decision in box gets looked at? It seems to be case in England and if so why was Goss not looked at?

On another point Robbie Neilson was on radio after game slaughtering referee for their sending off and said that the ref told him it was for a high and dangerous tackle which he disagreed with. As well as saying Gordon got a touch of ball at moult penalty so decision was wrong. This was great management on his part I feel as all the talk and discussion was on how Hearts were harshly treated and not on our contentious decisions. 

Also if Neilson got an explanation I would have hoped and expected that Hammell asked him questions regarding our decisions and got an answer.

Still raging this morning and as others said on this forum before VAR came in that our refs will still fck it up which at the time I disagreed with I now see it is going to be that way. We can only hope it is teething problems but more explanation is needed from the referees as every week now the chat on all forums is mostly about VAR which is wrong.

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, gaz7 said:

A big thing with VAR is I thought any big decision in box gets looked at? It seems to be case in England and if so why was Goss not looked at?

On another point Robbie Neilson was on radio after game slaughtering referee for their sending off and said that the ref told him it was for a high and dangerous tackle which he disagreed with. As well as saying Gordon got a touch of ball at moult penalty so decision was wrong. This was great management on his part I feel as all the talk and discussion was on how Hearts were harshly treated and not on our contentious decisions. 

Also if Neilson got an explanation I would have hoped and expected that Hammell asked him questions regarding our decisions and got an answer.

Still raging this morning and as others said on this forum before VAR came in that our refs will still fck it up which at the time I disagreed with I now see it is going to be that way. We can only hope it is teething problems but more explanation is needed from the referees as every week now the chat on all forums is mostly about VAR which is wrong.

Pretty much agree with that. However Hammell will never get the media exposure that Neilson gets and if he had said the same things it would hardly have rated a mention. 

[Great Balls of Shire]

5 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

We get the officials our game deserves,,,,,,,  what a feckin ridiculous statement  to make ffs. The officials not doing their job properly  cost us points yesterday,  they've always been poor and even now with the technology to help them they are still making a James Hunt of it every week.

Decisions are made that cost teams points and we get no explanations  from the officials  as to why they were made, with no comeback or sanctions  on the officials involved, the whole system is rotten to the core.

Another way of putting it then, we are shit and so are officials 

Their incompetence is a separate issue to our defending 

they contributed to our loss yesterday but so did our defence, midfield

I've just watched build up to penalty , why is nobody closing man down , tackling him.

The 1st and 3rd goals are lamentable,hammy really needs to show these back and say to players , what were you doing and how did that happen? 

We need an Alan Campbell type in the middle 

[texanwellfan]

Yes, all of the officiating points are valid but yet we had the opportunity to still come away with at least a point if not 3. We have to drum it into the midfield and defense that we cannot allow runners to go 20 30 yards unchallenged.  Get in their face early at least slow them down which then gives other players a chance to challenge. 

[claretband]

2 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

We need an Alan Campbell type in the middle 

We have one, sitting on the bench most weeks

[Coatsy]

Rules for VAR in Scotland

VAR can only intervene when it is believed that the on-pitch referee has made a clear and obvious error, or missed a serious incident relating to four specific circumstances, namely a straight red card, penalty incidents, goals (including offside decisions) and any cases of mistaken identity when the wrong player has been shown a yellow or red card.

[SteelmaninOZ]

 

[SteelmaninOZ]

 

[SteelmaninOZ]

 

[MJC]

6 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Pretty much agree with that. However Hammell will never get the media exposure that Neilson gets and if he had said the same things it would hardly have rated a mention. 

Absolutely agree with this but this is something you see in football all over the world. The bigger or more ‘fashionable’ club get more exposure in the media so the manager, players or even supporters of that club use that to their advantage to keep the positive focus on their team. 
 

Hearts are obviously a bigger club than we are and so in the eyes of the media more fashionable so therefore command more media attention and support and Neilson knew exactly what he was doing with his comments.

Had that been Hearts v Celtic yesterday with the exact same scoreline and the exact same incidents then Ange Postecoglou would have made damn sure that the entire focus was on Gordon’s non red card and whether the disallowed equaliser at 2-1 was justified or not(regardless of whether it was or not). And that would get the majority of the media focus and any grievance that Hearts and Neilson had would have barely warranted a mention.

[gaz7]

17 minutes ago, MJC_mkII said:

Absolutely agree with this but this is something you see in football all over the world. The bigger or more ‘fashionable’ club get more exposure in the media so the manager, players or even supporters of that club use that to their advantage to keep the positive focus on their team. 
 

Hearts are obviously a bigger club than we are and so in the eyes of the media more fashionable so therefore command more media attention and support and Neilson knew exactly what he was doing with his comments.

Had that been Hearts v Celtic yesterday with the exact same scoreline and the exact same incidents then Ange Postecoglou would have made damn sure that the entire focus was on Gordon’s non red card and whether the disallowed equaliser at 2-1 was justified or not(regardless of whether it was or not). And that would get the majority of the media focus and any grievance that Hearts and Neilson had would have barely warranted a mention.

Exactly.  The thing is we actually have allies in the media in craigan and mcfadden and Gordon Duncan etc so we should be using it to our advantage.  Celtic requested an explanation after hearts game last week regarding decisions why can't we? Is it because of cost maybe.  Celtic and rangers and maybe hearts hibs aberdeen won't bother about 10k for instance in a fine  but I'm sure we would and that I think is likely reason