Livingston V Motherwell 2/1/2023

[smiddy]

10 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

McKinstry and Coreneliues get away with murder with the fans because their "love of the club" McKinstry couldnt cross a bridge and Cornelieus couldnt fight off a cold.

mckinstry when he came on showed up in good spaces wide right, it just took us to long to recycle  the ball back  to him but when we did ( which was probably more in time added on ) he wasnt scared to have a run at them, cornelius was a different story as OTF said he does all the dirty dogys , chasing about and all the other shitty stuff which isnt fancy but needs to be done to break the game / play up , some peoples take on it is hes chasing paper about on a windy day, but in fact hes doinfg an important job for the players around him, now here lies the problem . they players are goss, slattery and spittal, so is the problem not with them, one has a wand of a left foot ( allegedly) one is very good at falling on his arse for free kicks, and the other one is not as bad as some people make out but need to up his gme by 20%      all just my own opinion on what i saw yesterday,    

[Ya Bezzer!]

14 hours ago, wellsince75 said:

Although crowds are at 4k when you compare us to Ross County, Livingstone, StMirren, St Johnstone then I think it's reasonable to expect us to be performing better than them.

Some of those clubs have significant private investment.  And even then all of them have been up and down the leagues.  

[wellfan]

15 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Some of those clubs have significant private investment.  And even then all of them have been up and down the leagues.  

That aside, our average league finishing position across 2004/05 to 2021/22 is 6th place (mostly thanks to Stuart McCall and his players), so it's not unreasonable for fans to expect better than the recent and current shit being served. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/motherwell-fc/platzierungen/verein/987

[Yodo]

I said a while back that Spittal Goss & Slattery would get SH the sack if he persisted playing them . They bring nothing to the team Spittal is a well below average player who had one good season wae RC . Goss has already failed in Scottish football but we decided to give him another chance . Slattery was a prospect who has never got near what people thought he could achieve . You can only pee wae the cock u have and that’s not helping SH his options are limited but he must try something like a different formation cause we are going doon fast 

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, David said:

Tony Watt left because he was offered more money by a club that has more resources than we do, simple as that. 

O'Hara? Yeah, I'm not sure he fit into Alexander's way of playing. That's not to say he isn't a good player, but if he's not suited to the system or style of play then there's no point in him being here.

It's football. It happens. 

If you're talking about comments I made, all I've done is state facts when it comes to Alexander's time as manager. I do that because there's this mental obsession with reframing his time here to suit the agenda of reassuring ourselves that despite league positions, win percentages, and points totals he actually wasn't that good.

His style of football wasn't easy on the eye, and he certainly didn't lack confidence in himself or suffer fools gladly, which rubs certain people the wrong way. That's fair enough, but we knew all of that before hiring him. 

My main issue with how he left was the timing of it. I've said numerous times that we should either have got rid of him as soon as the season finished, as irrational as that would have been considering we'd finished 5th in the table, but it would certainly have been preferable to giving him the summer and then parting ways two days before the league kicked off, or kept him until around November or December and seen if he could get the team back on track. 

The board made a mistake in how they allowed that to play out. And the truth is, we're potentially going to pay for that with relegation. It was the type of move you see clubs who end up getting relegated making, and although we're not usually the type of club to do that, it's happened.

The bigger question now is does the board allow the same disgruntled voices who played a part in Alexander moving on to influence how we deal with Hammell? 

Parting ways with a manager days before the league season starts is worrying and as I mentioned, the kind of behaviour you see from clubs who tend to end up in relegation trouble. But binning said managers replacement five months later is even worse. 

We had a choice when we appointed Hammell. We could have gone down the route of another Alexander type who likely would have kept us up (as I'm sure Alexander himself would have), but we wanted someone young, fresh, likeable, and who played exciting football.

Well, now we have that. But we're finding out that being likeable and playing football that perhaps isn't as difficult to watch doesn't mean success.

But Hammell is the man in the seat now, and we need to back him. Changing manager again, for the second time in a season would be a disaster. There's not many clubs who do that kind of thing and go on to succeed.

Theres a lot of merit in your post. I agreed with it at the time and I still agree with it now.

However, the thing you ignored then and ignore now is the back to back defeats against Sligo. It wasnt just losing those games, it was the manner in which we lost them and the fact that, having seen the way the home game panned out the manager made no adjustments in the second game and played exactly the same way.

No one can survive that.

Also, its not clear the board DID sack Alexander. If they are to be believed he came to them to discuss the situation. They maybe didnt fight very hard to keep him, but we dont know that for sure.

Point is even if we did can Alexander, we cant make the same mistake again. Changing manager again now without backing him in the window would firstly be unfair imho. But also it starts to send out the message that we ate a club who dont give managers time. Thats not a good look when the time comes to actually change things.

[Yorkyred]

11 hours ago, dennyc said:

Not heard anybody saying Hammell has not made mistakes. And not heard anybody saying it’s all Alexander’s fault either. What I am hearing is the usual Alexander supporters attacking Hammell at every turn in what looks like an effort to prove their irrational, continued support of Alexander was justified. Just read the comments during todays game. 

Of course Hammell will be judged on his record. That’s fair enough. Some fans just think he needs leeway, time and patience to address the shitfest he inherited. And he will make mistakes. As most people readily stated when he was appointed. And the same would apply to whoever had been appointed, ex player or not.
We are not even three days into his first window and folk are slating him for not bringing in the six players we apparently need on the 1st of January. In any event, how many he can recruit is down to other factors outwith his control…...like available cash, Board support, suitable players being fit and available and those players wanting to join up. His comments regarding numbers coming in sounded to me like he was being realistic given these factors rather than his preference. 
I prefer to support him a bit longer rather than turn on him first chance I get. 

I don’t actually remember Alexander having any supporters on here, maybe I’m wrong but my recollection is he was pretty unpopular for the style of play, his feedback and personality in general. For my part I’m simply stating things in general look to be going backwards not forwards and he needs to do better with the players we have if we are to stay up. Even after the window I’d be very surprised if we don’t still have seven of the outfield ten from the squad we have now. I do think the next two games are crucial and I think he recognises that himself.

[Great Balls of Shire]

1 hour ago, Onthefringes said:

Played football much?

What is it you want them to do? Seems opinion based on adopting a flying anorak approach chasing around the pitch launching into tackles.

Take last 2 outings for example. Done the tasks being asked to do. Someone has to do the doggy runs, it brings a natural energy to the team & helps drive us forward more often than not. Covered every blade of grass at Ibrox and one reason Rangers never overran us as has been a theme last few months. Yesterday was spent matching the opposition so ball was overhead for majority. 10 minutes aside of a few misplaced passes, he snapped out of that.

Our one midfielder who’s willing to go beyond our forward line and capable of getting back.

Said it before, the midfield has to be the sum of all parts - Both Alexander & Hammell looked to add the experienced head required. Had either been successful it would’ve been of benefit to the relatively inexperienced Slattery and certainly Cornelius.

Like I've already said, I've no desire to see the boy fail....just looks like another Stuart Carswell, does a lot of things ok , but nothing outstanding....he's young and might go on to do really well and I'll be wrong ( again)

Carswell plays with Dumbarton now

[gdalli10]

Blair Spittal is a strange one. He often looks like he’s not in the game but he does have good moments.

 

Yesterday, he lumped the ball over Livingston’s defenders head trying to win a throw in too often for me. He should have shown more composure on the ball. On the other hand, he was involved in almost all of our chances.

 

If you look at his stats (3 goals and 4 assists in 18 games) then he’s got the most out of our midfielders/wingers. Slattery has 3 goals and one assist and Goss has 2 assists. If you look at the wide players Shields has 2 assists, Efford 1 goal and 3 assists and McKinstry has 2 goals and 1 assist. 
 

Blair Spittal gets a pass for me. This transfer window is more about a more effective right winger, a striker who can compete with KVV for a start, and a central midfielder that’s been mentioned by a few posters on this thread. 

[Yodo]

Blair Spittal isn’t a strange one he his just a player who shouldn’t be anywhere near Fir Park 

[gaz7]

Didn't think yesterday was as bad as the consensus on here suggests.

Lamie and Sol I felt were in control. 

Goss and Slattery were doing OK and van veen if less greedy and bit luckier could have won it for us.

Now some of the above might be down to Livi not having nouble. Holt or pitman available but even so we were the better team imo.

What will be consensus if we win next 2 games plus progress in scottish cup? All very achievable in my view.

It will not mean Hammell has fixed everything but it will certainly quell the negativity.

We need to support the team and our manager and remember all this talk of an experienced manager will grind it out etc and think of Tommy Wright who a lot on here were wanting previously. 

 

[Yorkyred]

2 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

Didn't think yesterday was as bad as the consensus on here suggests.

Lamie and Sol I felt were in control. 

Goss and Slattery were doing OK and van veen if less greedy and bit luckier could have won it for us.

Now some of the above might be down to Livi not having nouble. Holt or pitman available but even so we were the better team imo.

What will be consensus if we win next 2 games plus progress in scottish cup? All very achievable in my view.

It will not mean Hammell has fixed everything but it will certainly quell the negativity.

We need to support the team and our manager and remember all this talk of an experienced manager will grind it out etc and think of Tommy Wright who a lot on here were wanting previously. 

 

If we win the next two games things will look very different and Hammell will be in a far more comfortable position for sure

[gaz7]

13 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Utd wont be anywhere near the dogfightl. Its a 3way with us Kilmarnock and Ross County.

Most would think that due to the players in squad.

However likes of them hibs.hearts have been relegated in recent past with same types of players.

Those 3 have bigger fanbases and expect them to be up top and when not happening the grief they give players is even more than ours get at fir park.

Hibs next week we will hopefully see their fans being toxic as fck towards their players and them being in the relegation fight as well

[David]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

That aside, our average league finishing position across 2004/05 to 2021/22 is 6th place (mostly thanks to Stuart McCall and his players), so it's not unreasonable for fans to expect better than the recent and current shit being served. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/motherwell-fc/platzierungen/verein/987

Hold on, you can't have someone bring up the fact that the clubs being mentioned have fairly significant investment and have fallen down the leagues in recent years and reply with "that aside."

You can't cast that aside, it's the very crux of the point being made. 

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

However, the thing you ignored then and ignore now is the back to back defeats against Sligo. It wasnt just losing those games, it was the manner in which we lost them and the fact that, having seen the way the home game panned out the manager made no adjustments in the second game and played exactly the same way.

No one can survive that.

I may be in the minority here, but I didn't really care. 

It would have been nice to move to the next round in Europe before being papped out, but the fact is that every Scottish side is done and dusted in Europe before too long anyway.

We went into the Sligo games the way most Scottish clubs do when they qualify for Europe. Not match fit, and with a squad that was still being changed with comings & goings. 

By my reckoning we'd played two friendly games before the first Sligo game, one against an Austrian mob while we were over there, and the other against Thistle.

Alexander had voiced his frustration at planned away friendlies being cancelled for reasons outwith the clubs control, and obviously we couldn't play any at home due to the pitch being renovated.

Excuses? No, they're simply part of the reason we were nowhere near match fit when we faced Sligo. 

A Sligo side it must be said, who were five months deep into their season. It was a recipe for disaster, as it is for many Scottish clubs who get caught on the hop by these teams who come into games match-fit and in a rhythm.

It was a game we should have won, but losing it wasn't the end of the world. Not in my opinion anyway.

We'll see more results like that, by the way, the longer we persist with winter football. That in itself is sheer madness, considering out winter weather, but that's a discussion for another thread.

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Point is even if we did can Alexander, we cant make the same mistake again. Changing manager again now without backing him in the window would firstly be unfair imho. But also it starts to send out the message that we ate a club who dont give managers time. Thats not a good look when the time comes to actually change things.

This I agree 100% with. 

[Coatsy]

I'd say that we would be mad to part with Hammel we saw fit to give him the job and now have to give him time to turn it around. Which means at least a season.

If it means we drop into the championship then so be it i don't see bringing in someone new next month would make any difference and it would send a bad message out about our club

When he was appointed the style of play and results were much improved however lately they have dipped now whether that is lack of personal or development i'm not sure but time will tell.

Other concerns relate to the lack of integration of our younger players which he heralded when he was appointed and considering our lack of depth in the squad i'd have thought it was the ideal opportunity to bring on these players. However Hammel has stuck with the same group in general so i take it from that we don't have any players capable which is a worry considering he was in charge of youth development at the club.

However some good discussion o this thread

 

[pretzel]

22 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

Didn't think yesterday was as bad as the consensus on here suggests.

Lamie and Sol I felt were in control. 

Goss and Slattery were doing OK and van veen if less greedy and bit luckier could have won it for us.

Now some of the above might be down to Livi not having nouble. Holt or pitman available but even so we were the better team imo.

What will be consensus if we win next 2 games plus progress in scottish cup? All very achievable in my view.

It will not mean Hammell has fixed everything but it will certainly quell the negativity.

We need to support the team and our manager and remember all this talk of an experienced manager will grind it out etc and think of Tommy Wright who a lot on here were wanting previously. 

 

I certainly agree with you. I thought the game panned out exactly how we expected on that pitch as its always a shitfest at Almondvale, Rugby Park and NDP on the plastic and yesterday was no different. While we do seem to concede some soft goals we have been guilty of missing some guilt edged chances (the story of our season), Van Veen should have buried the one in the second half that skelped the bar and he should have slid Shields in the first half. The Shields chance when he hit the bar from an acute angle and then it hits the Livi player on the head before hitting the side netting sums up our luck this year as well. Apart from a crazy five minute spell versus Killie we dominated that match and I felt we done more than enough to win yesterday but I know we would all feel more comfy getting the actual points on board. 

I know injuries are part and parcel of the game but if we had a full compliment of players I feel we would be safely ensconced further up the table, some pundit mentioned yesterday that we have the best away form out with the old firm this season. We have two winnable ties at home next so it would be great to transform that home form, plus we have a game in hand over Hibs, Killie and County so a couple of wins could prove to be massive.

 

 

[SteelmaninOZ]

MOTM?

 

[smiddy]

3 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

If we win the next two games things will look very different and Hammell will be in a far more comfortable position for sure

and as the old saying goes " IF  yir maw had bawz she wid be yir da " games are easy to win on paper , but  played on grass  we have hibs next, havent won in feck knows, shite team , canny score,live on the telly  manager under real big pressure, and us as there next game, what can possibly go wrong ????????????

[MearnsWell]

We’re the AA of Scottish football.  We get every other team back on the road….

[smiddy]

8 minutes ago, MearnsWell said:

We’re the AA of Scottish football.  We get every other team back on the road….

if we keep playin as shite as we do    then there will be a big feckin que at the other AA

[grizzlyg]

Hopefully we get better luck than yesterday, that penalty award was a farce, what is point of VAR when it isn't overturning decisions like that.

[David]

2 hours ago, MearnsWell said:

We’re the AA of Scottish football.  We get every other team back on the road….

Hibs fans are saying the same thing about their team. 

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

that penalty award was a farce, what is point of VAR when it isn't overturning decisions like that.

Yes, it was absolutely ludicrous and should not have been awarded. Looking back, I feel better about some of our early season awards now. 

[joewarkfanclub]

6 hours ago, David said:

I may be in the minority here, but I didn't really care. 

It would have been nice to move to the next round in Europe before being papped out, but the fact is that every Scottish side is done and dusted in Europe before too long anyway.

We went into the Sligo games the way most Scottish clubs do when they qualify for Europe. Not match fit, and with a squad that was still being changed with comings & goings. 

By my reckoning we'd played two friendly games before the first Sligo game, one against an Austrian mob while we were over there, and the other against Thistle.

Alexander had voiced his frustration at planned away friendlies being cancelled for reasons outwith the clubs control, and obviously we couldn't play any at home due to the pitch being renovated.

Excuses? No, they're simply part of the reason we were nowhere near match fit when we faced Sligo. 

A Sligo side it must be said, who were five months deep into their season. It was a recipe for disaster, as it is for many Scottish clubs who get caught on the hop by these teams who come into games match-fit and in a rhythm.

It was a game we should have won, but losing it wasn't the end of the world. Not in my opinion anyway.

We'll see more results like that, by the way, the longer we persist with winter football. That in itself is sheer madness, considering out winter weather, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Like I said before, it wasnt the losing to Sligo that got me. That can happen in early season as you rightly point out. It was the manner of the defeat.

We were outfought, outclassed and well beaten twice. It wasnt even close.

Had we huffed and puffed in the first game and drawn or had a bucketload of spurned chances in the second game having changed tactics and gone out to a dodgy penalty or something, he might have survived.

But he played the same negative way in both games and just waited for us to be beaten without lifting a finger.

He lost me that night and Im usually the last to turn.

[smiddy]

38 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Like I said before, it wasnt the losing to Sligo that got me. That can happen in early season as you rightly point out. It was the manner of the defeat.

We were outfought, outclassed and well beaten twice. It wasnt even close.

Had we huffed and puffed in the first game and drawn or had a bucketload of spurned chances in the second game having changed tactics and gone out to a dodgy penalty or something, he might have survived.

But he played the same negative way in both games and just waited for us to be beaten without lifting a finger.

He lost me that night and Im usually the last to turn.

hope you wernt singing joe 

[David]

2 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Like I said before, it wasnt the losing to Sligo that got me. That can happen in early season as you rightly point out. It was the manner of the defeat.

We were outfought, outclassed and well beaten twice. It wasnt even close.

Had we huffed and puffed in the first game and drawn or had a bucketload of spurned chances in the second game having changed tactics and gone out to a dodgy penalty or something, he might have survived.

But he played the same negative way in both games and just waited for us to be beaten without lifting a finger.

He lost me that night and Im usually the last to turn.

All of that is fair, even if I don't necessarily agree that parting ways with him at that stage was a good move. I hope to be proven wrong and Hammell turns things around and secures an 8th or 7th place finish.