Livingston V Motherwell 2/1/2023

[Great Balls of Shire]

28 minutes ago, smiddy said:

SOD fizzes nice balls into KVVs feet       when hees on the park

I've missed that but if u say so

[Ya Bezzer!]

47 minutes ago, David said:

The problem is, he was brought in literally two days before the league season started, and was given the job on a permanent basis on August 11th, two games in.

It was the worst possible scenario, as I've said a few times before. At that stage we should have kept Alexander until December or so and seen if he could get the players back on track. It was sheer madness to give him the summer,  allowing him to bring in three first-team players on permanent contracts then part ways days before the league season started.

We should either have parted company at the end of last season, or stuck with him until November/December depending on results.

 

Absolutely spot on.

However it should be pointed out that our own support put massive pressure on the club to get what they wanted. 

It might not have been possible to keep Alexander even if the club backed him.  

I said it at the time and I'll say it again.  Our supporters can shoulder a lot the blame over what has happened, and potentially, what does happen this season.  

Not that anyone will ever admit that of course.  You still get people blaming Alexander for our results this season.

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, wellsince75 said:

because we keep playing the same duffers. Appreciate many will blame the coaching but some of our players likes of Sol have proven not to be good enough.  

Frustrating that Blaney didn't come straight into the team 

Well why wasn't Blaney selected to start? Injury/illness???? It's not as if our defence has been excellent until today and it was a one off error. 

[smiddy]

4 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

I've missed that but if u say so

watch him when heez playin ,    he looks to play up the line then checks n plays vv into feet, where as others whip balls into his  space which is then basically a lottery for him, i am not a big SOD fan but credit where its due

[Fairhill]

I think Stevie will do the best with the players on hand, but the club needs to get some proper recruiting done.

[smiddy]

9 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Absolutely spot on.

However it should be pointed out that our own support put massive pressure on the club to get what they wanted. 

It might not have been possible to keep Alexander even if the club backed him.  

I said it at the time and I'll say it again.  Our supporters can shoulder a lot the blame over what has happened, and potentially, what does happen this season.  

Not that anyone will ever admit that of course.  You still get people blaming Alexander for our results this season.

well Alexander has waltzed off into the sun set with his pay off and left his duds behind,  as iv said before we will see if when he gets his next job how many fuds he will come back for      anawers on a postcard to mr burrows

[MJC]

12 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I said it at the time and I'll say it again.  Our supporters can shoulder a lot the blame over what has happened, and potentially, what does happen this season.  

Not that anyone will ever admit that of course.  You still get people blaming Alexander for our results this season.

The support were scunnered with Alexander's management of the team, the dreadful performances and poor form which culminated in one of our most humiliating results in our history. You'd be hard pushed to find any support of any top flight club that would have reacted any differently.

And this is the team that Alexander was largely responsible for building and deemed acceptable to go into this season with the additions of Josh Morris, Paul McGinn and Blair Spittal so it's understandable that he gets some of the blame for what's happened this season.

[Yorkyred]

56 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Yorky, youre not one for knee jerk reactions, so it's worrying when you say that

I’m not for sure but the stats tell there own story and something has to change. Of course if we win the next two games everything looks different, if we don’t we may be bottom and that’s a scary place to be. As I’ve said previously any new managers first job is to improve what he has at his disposal which has happened with us until Hammell, the players have actually got worse, even less organised, silly mistakes every game, confidence looks very low. The board certainly need to look at how they handled things and I have no idea if Alexander wanted out regardless but as Dave said the timing was awful. However taking that out of the equation we should not be struggling to the degree that we are in my view and if I could see improvements I would say let’s stick with what we have, I just don’t see any improvements.

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Penney can't defend

You pays your money you takes your choice. He's not in the team because of his defensive abilities. Very good on the ball though to be fair.

[El Grew]

2 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Did you see first goal at Ibrox?

Yes. Your point is? Did you see McGinn today?

[David]

7 minutes ago, smiddy said:

well Alexander has waltzed off into the sun set with his pay off and left his duds behind,  as iv said before we will see if when he gets his next job how many fuds he will come back for      anawers on a postcard to mr burrows

Those "duds" finished 5th last season. And I know, "lucky, nothing to do with Alexander, every other team was crap etc" but the facts are the facts.

His record over his time with us is an 8th place and 5th place finish. 

And while the results weren't great in the 2022 half of the season, we secured 46 points last season for a 5th place finish. By comparison we finished 8th on 45 points the season before when Alexander took over from Robinson, and the year previous when we finished 3rd under Robinson, which was looked upon as a successful season, we finished 3rd on 46 points.

So it's not as if we were terrible but secured 5th on a lower points threshold than ever before. Alexander attained success by any barometer a club like Motherwell can be measured by.

But the fans weren't happy with that, they wanted more exciting football and a manager who was more likeable.

Now we've got that. There's every chance that we excitingly play our way into the Championship.

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, Yorkyred said:

If we don’t win one of the next two it’s time up for me I’m afraid, I just don’t believe he’s going to pick up enough points

That's where I am too. It doesn't matter how we do it we must pick up at least 4 points. If not it should be time up. If Hammy was at the vast majority of other clubs he'd go after  such a poor run.  We need a couple of new signings at least. That's not enough though. They have to arrive quickly and hit the ground running. A tall order. 

[El Grew]

OUR HOME FORM
Puts us 12th in the league - 1 win & 2 draws from 8 games.

OUR AWAY FORM
Puts us 3rd in the league - 4 wins & 2 draws from 11 games. Only the OF have better away records.

Maybe we should apply to play our remaining games away from Fir Park. 

[fizoxy]

Did we disturb a burial ground when we upgraded the pitch? 

[Ya Bezzer!]

27 minutes ago, MJC said:

The support were scunnered with Alexander's management of the team, the dreadful performances and poor form which culminated in one of our most humiliating results in our history. You'd be hard pushed to find any support of any top flight club that would have reacted any differently.

And this is the team that Alexander was largely responsible for building and deemed acceptable to go into this season with the additions of Josh Morris, Paul McGinn and Blair Spittal so it's understandable that he gets some of the blame for what's happened this season.

So a lot of people thought the stupid decision to make was the correct one.  So what?  Happens all the time.

As for our squad it obviously would have been added to if the manager hadn't departed so to say that Alexander wouldn't have done so is more nonsense.

Josh Morris hasn't worked out but Paul McGinn and Blair Spittal are far from being some of the worst signings in recent years.

We had 31 points this time last season.  This season we have 19.  If you don't think it was a mistake then what exactly is?

[wellsince75]

6 minutes ago, David said:

Those "duds" finished 5th last season. And I know, "lucky, nothing to do with Alexander, every other team was crap etc" but the facts are the facts.

His record over his time with us is an 8th place and 5th place finish. 

And while the results weren't great in the 2022 half of the season, we secured 46 points last season for a 5th place finish. By comparison we finished 8th on 45 points the season before when Alexander took over from Robinson, and the year previous when we finished 3rd under Robinson, which was looked upon as a successful season, we finished 3rd on 46 points.

I agree that GA's 2021 was very decent for results. He had earned his extension, albeit performance were poor, clearly we'd bite anyones hand off for the results.

For all of 2022 we''re the worst performing SPL team. Thats with both GA and SH at the helm.  Points and record wise both has c18 games each and SH has marginally better performance with a point per game. 

It's not quite the same duds though. We've not been the same since Watt left and personally I believe we miss Donnelly/O'Hara in midfield.  Both did the hard defensive work and since they've moved on we've shipped goals galore. 

In essence I believe we had better players in Watt, O'Hara and Donnelly, who have been replaced by Efford, Spittal and Morris.   

Unless we sign quality players the data stacks up that we're likely to be relegated. 

 

[MJC]

12 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

So a lot of people thought the stupid decision to make was the correct one.  So what?  Happens all the time.

As for our squad it obviously would have been added to if the manager hadn't departed so to say that Alexander wouldn't have done so is more nonsense.

Josh Morris hasn't worked out but Paul McGinn and Blair Spittal are far from being some of the worst signings in recent years.

We had 31 points this time last season.  This season we have 19.  If you don't think it was a mistake then what exactly is?

The only ‘stupid’ thing about Alexander’s departure was the timing of it, he should have been gone in May. 
 

And it obviously would have been added to had Alexander not departed? Really? Perhaps you know something I and others don’t but Alexander seemed happy enough with what he had over the summer. We might have got another Vauxhall conference league dud that had previously worked with Alexander in before the end of the window I suppose.

And your last point, I’ve said this before, we had Tony Watt for the first half of last season who’s goals won us at least ten points in the first half of the campaign, we didn’t have him in the same period this year so your comparison is pointless. If we were to sign a player who can get us similar during this window then I’m confident we’ll survive relegation this season.

edit: Fifteen points Watt won for us between August and December ‘21. We weren’t playing particularly well then either but when you have a player who can get you goals you can win points. It’s no coincidence whatsoever that our form nosedived as soon as he left last season and we and and GA were found out.

[Ya Bezzer!]

2 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

we're likely to be relegated. 
 

I believe that due to some selective memory many Motherwell fans think we are a bigger club than we are.

Sure, we have been in the top league for as long as even fairly old supporters have been following the club but only because we got lucky with relegation three times and had the fortune to meet a Rangers in disarray in the play off.

As the situation currently stands I think it's almost inevitable that we will be relegated in the short to medium future.  We have used up our luck in escaping relegation in the past and now, with the club being self financing and clearly struggling, over half a dozen seasons now, to attract good quality players or management it is always going to be a a difficult task.

We are pulling in less than 4,000 supporters most weeks and that's all that's keeping the lights on.  We are unlikely to have a slew of transfer fees coming in the immediate future.

Things are going to be tough and supporters need to get their head around the reality of fan ownership.

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

6 minutes ago, MJC said:

The only ‘stupid’ thing about Alexander’s departure was the timing of it, he should have been gone in May. 
 

And it obviously would have been added to had Alexander not departed? Really? Perhaps you know something I and others don’t but Alexander seemed happy enough with what he had over the summer. We might have got another Vauxhall conference league dud that had previously worked with Alexander in before the end of the window I suppose.

And your last point, I’ve said this before, we had Tony Watt for the first half of last season who’s goals won us at least ten points in the first half of the campaign, we didn’t have him in the same period this year so your comparison is pointless. If we were to sign a player who can get us similar during this window then I’m confident we’ll survive relegation this season

"Alexander seemed happy enough" 

By the way Tony Watt had 9 goals in 18 matches last season.  This season Van Veen has 9 goals in 18 matches.

[Great Balls of Shire]

53 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

You pays your money you takes your choice. He's not in the team because of his defensive abilities. Very good on the ball though to be fair.

He is good on the ball but I think we need to close the back door 

[MJC]

9 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

"Alexander seemed happy enough" 

By the way Tony Watt had 9 goals in 18 matches last season.  This season Van Veen has 9 goals in 18 matches.

That’s how it appeared. Again, do you know different?

And so what? We also had van Veen who along with Watt contributed by scoring six goals in the same period last season. Losing him last January was a big reason why the arse fell out of our season and we haven’t come close to replacing him since. This season we have really only had one forward - KvV - worthy of the name at the club and that’s why we struggle to score goals and thus win games.

[wellsince75]

36 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I believe that due to some selective memory many Motherwell fans think we are a bigger club than we are.

Sure, we have been in the top league for as long as even fairly old supporters have been following the club but only because we got lucky with relegation three times and had the fortune to meet a Rangers in disarray in the play off.

As the situation currently stands I think it's almost inevitable that we will be relegated in the short to medium future.  We have used up our luck in escaping relegation in the past and now, with the club being self financing and clearly struggling, over half a dozen seasons now, to attract good quality players or management it is always going to be a a difficult task.

We are pulling in less than 4,000 supporters most weeks and that's all that's keeping the lights on.  We are unlikely to have a slew of transfer fees coming in the immediate future.

Things are going to be tough and supporters need to get their head around the reality of fan ownership.

 

Appreciate we rode our luck a few times but given we've been in the league since the 80s it's not ridiculous to expect us to stay there.   

Although crowds are at 4k when you compare us to Ross County, Livingstone, StMirren, St Johnstone then I think it's reasonable to expect us to be performing better than them.

I do think we've been rudderless for a while in terms of not having a long term plan that continues to focus heavily on youth. A decent amount of players came through our ranks since the 80s , many very decent pro's and a few exceptional ones. 

We need decent pros to come through , sadly we've struggled in last couple of seasons and made some of the most horrendous signings I can recall.  

This cocktail has led to very average players , lack of leadership and lack of fight for the club. Hence why relegation is now looking a strong possibility.  Its poor stewardship and the club need to dig deep, find the cash and the players to sort this out.

[Great Balls of Shire]

1 hour ago, El Grew said:

Yes. Your point is? Did you see McGinn today?

Saw second half, he looked ok , from what I saw....anyway, even if he's not , give the boy Johnston a chance

 

 

[Spit_It_Out]

One thing that's starting to become pretty clear is Hammels in game management is shocking and doesn't seem to be learning very quick.

His use of the bench is utterly baffling for me 77 mins before he uses first sub today,uses 4/5 subs against Rangers with the game already lost including bringing on our only striker KVV who was ill,Waits til 84th minute to bring on fresh legs against a ten man Killie team.

I honestly think biggest mistake of the season was not bringing in an experienced number 2.

 

[grizzlyg]

Personally I am fed up hearing about Alexander and I think a few fans have forgotten how bad things were near end of his tenure. Let's focus on current situation which is very concerning and Hammy's body language and comments about 1 or 2 signings is scary as we need a lot more than that. If Blaney has been signed as a squad player and on basis of 1 free kick then god help our scouting network.

Personally after years of defending him I feel Burrows is badly at fault but that's for another day.

It's on the pitch where we need to focus and we are still 10th. A win v Hibs and then Ross Co and Arbroath and we are all happy campers. 3 defeats and I genuinely think decisions need to be made but no idea what answer would be.   COYW