Livingston V Motherwell 2/1/2023

[ML1]

6 minutes ago, Spit_It_Out said:

I honestly think biggest mistake of the season was not bringing in an experienced number 2.

 

To do the job that the number one should be doing?

[numpty]

1 hour ago, David said:

But the fans weren't happy with that, they wanted more exciting football and a manager who was more likeable.

Now we've got that.

We might have a more likeable manager, but I haven't seen much in the way of exciting football recently.

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

He is good on the ball but I think we need to close the back door 

Agree 100%. Lets make sure the defence is watertight first.

[Spiderpig]

7 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Agree 100%. Lets make sure the defence is watertight first.

Spot on Dave, "attack wins you games, defence wins you titles" as Sir Alex Ferguson once said. So Don't lose goals and we wont lose many games, it really is that simple.

[David]

27 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Let's focus on current situation which is very concerning and Hammy's body language and comments about 1 or 2 signings is scary as we need a lot more than that.

It's the January window. We'll be lucky to get one or two quality signings, never mind thinking we can retool the squad in the window that is universally known as terrible to work in unless you have insane amounts of money to spend.

[grizzlyg]

2 minutes ago, David said:

It's the January window. We'll be lucky to get one or two quality signings, never mind thinking we can retool the squad in the window that is universally known as terrible to work in unless you have insane amounts of money to spend.

I do fear the worst pal as I don't think this squad are good enough to get us out of this.  Hopefully a couple of gems can be picked up but I seriously doubt it 

[mfc]

8 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Spot on Dave, "attack wins you games, defence wins you titles" as Sir Alex Ferguson once said. So Don't lose goals and we wont lose many games, it really is that simple.

Exactly right,if we can cut out some of the ridiculously soft goals we concede then we might be in with half a chance,I was really hoping that hammell being a defender himself that we might have seen us being more defesively sound but so far there's no evidence of that.

[mfc]

3 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

I do fear the worst pal as I don't think this squad are good enough to get us out of this.  Hopefully a couple of gems can be picked up but I seriously doubt it 

That's the thing grizzly we are relying on having an almost perfect transfer window to hopefully give us the lift that we need but that will only get us so far,hammell needs a lot more out of what he has,there is no alternative,we are in real trouble.lose another game at home this time to hibs and he needs to go for me.

[Motherwellfc1991]

One point was much more than I expected us to get today so from that point of view it was a bonus. The however is we are awful , pedestrian , slow , unfit and lacking in any style, but most alarmingly we look lost without leadership or real bite or dig to win a game of football. 
 

Alexander , the board and Burrows have lots to be blamed for the however is ;

- Hammell has had 6 months with team and his points record is shocking 

- Hammell was in charge of youth for years and no one has come through from 30 plus players 

- Hammell has had 5 plus months to motivate a team , get a game plan and style and he hasn’t 

- Hammell picks spittal and Shields most if not every week - that’s a massive reason why we are in the position we are in. Two out and out passengers 

His win ratio is worse than Baracloughs - there is only one outcome coming with this guy in charge.

We have a bowling club well society committee and board with massive conflicts of interest with the personal on it involved in the club board and the club board has made some very poor  decisions that reflects where we now are . 
 

there’s two options ;

 

1. keep Hammell and go down - he’s shown nothing to suggest otherwise

2. change manager and have a very slim hope he gets more out the poor squad than Hammell has in 6 months but either way Hammell isn’t the man in This league or the first division. 

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, wellsince75 said:

 

In essence I believe we had better players in Watt, O'Hara and Donnelly, who have been replaced by Efford, Spittal and Morris.   

Unless we sign quality players the data stacks up that we're likely to be relegated. 

 

The question I have is why above average players like Watt and O'Hara ...to a lesser degree Donnelly.....wanted to leave in the first place. In my opinion that was down to Alexander and the way they they were unfairly treated/ignored. For a time Slattery was in the same boat. I don't believe for a second it was about the cash which is the reason often put forward on here. Bottom line is that Alexander did not want them. It was a choice, however, that he was entitled to make.

But that is the same Alexander who believed Shields and Efford were the answer to Watt leaving and that his old pal Morris was an upgrade on O'Hara for this season. Watt and O'Hara would walk into the current team. So what does that say about Alexander's judgement.

Hammell may or may not be the man to move us forward and early indications are not that positive. But it is not down to Hammell that decent players and most peoples' first choices like Kelly, Lamie, McGinn, KVV regularly forget the basics, have brain farts and cost us matches. It is not down to Hammell that he has few other options player wise. He can only pish with the cock he has.   But anyone who believes we would be in a better position if Alexander had stayed is deluded. How quickly they forget what we were subjected to from January onwards and the way his reign ended.

The way this thread is going all that is missing is the Yorky and David  "Bring Back Graham" petition. Get over it lads, He's gone.

So much for the..".Hammell needs time to rebuild, give him two or three transfer windows, time to all pull together" chat. Fickle hardly covers it.

 

[twistandshout1983]

I do not think we should push the panic button with Hammell yet.  Big changes are needed soon though

Was actually happy with the point today which is a sign of where we are at present

The way the season is going 10th will be success and I didn’t think I would have said that even a couple of months ago . Clearly struggling though the rot set in before Stevie got the job

Even before Alexander came in the last year or so under Robbo’s leadership was a tough watch , and I was a fan of him 

A previous poster mentioned about the punching above our weight chat which was accurate. I think we should be always aiming better but there is an acceptance from top to bottom that we should be where we are

[Yorkyred]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

The question I have is why above average players like Watt and O'Hara ...to a lesser degree Donnelly.....wanted to leave in the first place. In my opinion that was down to Alexander and the way they they were unfairly treated/ignored. For a time Slattery was in the same boat. I don't believe for a second it was about the cash which is the reason often put forward on here. Bottom line is that Alexander did not want them. It was a choice, however, that he was entitled to make.

But that is the same Alexander who believed Shields and Efford were the answer to Watt leaving and that his old pal Morris was an upgrade on O'Hara for this season. Watt and O'Hara would walk into the current team. So what does that say about Alexander's judgement.

Hammell may or may not be the man to move us forward and early indications are not that positive. But it is not down to Hammell that decent players and most peoples' first choices like Kelly, Lamie, McGinn, KVV regularly forget the basics, have brain farts and cost us matches. It is not down to Hammell that he has few other options player wise. He can only pish with the cock he has.   But anyone who believes we would be in a better position if Alexander had stayed is deluded. How quickly they forget what we were subjected to from January onwards and the way his reign ended.

The way this thread is going all that is missing is the Yorky and David  "Bring Back Graham" petition. Get over it lads, He's gone.

So much for the..".Hammell needs time to rebuild, give him two or three transfer windows, time to all pull together" chat. Fickle hardly covers it.

 

I’ve never actually rated Alexander that much, would not want him back, and as you rightly state “ get over it lads he’s gone”. Unfortunately at this rate I could see us midtable in the championship with people still stating it’s all Alexander’s fault. At the moment it seems nothing is Hammell fault, fitness, organisation, confidence gone, players like Kelly and Lamie going backwards. We could put the tea lady in charge and she would be safe from criticism. Sorry but at this stage we need to look at performances under this manager, not the last one. He has been in charge since August of last year.

[ML1]

6 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

I’ve never actually rated Alexander that much, would not want him back, and as you rightly state “ get over it lads he’s gone”. Unfortunately at this rate I could see us midtable in the championship with people still stating it’s all Alexander’s fault. At the moment it seems nothing is Hammell fault, fitness, organisation, confidence gone, players like Kelly and Lamie going backwards. We could put the tea lady in charge and she would be safe from criticism. Sorry but at this stage we need to look at performances under this manager, not the last one.

Save your breath , its a cult.

[FirParkCornerExile]

6 hours ago, Well-Made said:

Well, we are officially in the relegation fight now as Utd move onto 19 points, with only 5 goal difference separating us.

Utd wont be anywhere near the dogfightl. Its a 3way with us Kilmarnock and Ross County.

[FirParkCornerExile]

6 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

He put 2 or 3 on a plate, his crossing is better than Mkinstry or Cornelius , we should be coming away with the points , howler again from vv

McKinstry and Coreneliues get away with murder with the fans because their "love of the club" McKinstry couldnt cross a bridge and Cornelieus couldnt fight off a cold.

[FirParkCornerExile]

2 hours ago, Spit_It_Out said:

One thing that's starting to become pretty clear is Hammels in game management is shocking and doesn't seem to be learning very quick.

His use of the bench is utterly baffling for me 77 mins before he uses first sub today,uses 4/5 subs against Rangers with the game already lost including bringing on our only striker KVV who was ill,Waits til 84th minute to bring on fresh legs against a ten man Killie team.

I honestly think biggest mistake of the season was not bringing in an experienced number 2.

 

Maybe Hammels use of the bench is dictated by the pish thats on it. None of the players on the bench today are game changers. They are like for Likers.

[Onthefringes]

14 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

McKinstry and Coreneliues get away with murder with the fans because their "love of the club" McKinstry couldnt cross a bridge and Cornelieus couldnt fight off a cold.

Deary me, see we’ve signed a big name. 10 or 11 letters if you’d get it right. As daft as your claim.

Those kids have never been murder to get away with anything. Out of all our problems those two making their way isn’t even in the top ten.

[Onthefringes]

9 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Maybe Hammels use of the bench is dictated by the pish thats on it. None of the players on the bench today are game changers. They are like for Likers.

Defines insanity in most books - sticking with the same faces expecting a different result.

[SteelmaninOZ]

The gaffer says 

 

[Kmcalpin]

49 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

McKinstry and Coreneliues get away with murder with the fans because their "love of the club" McKinstry couldnt cross a bridge and Cornelieus couldnt fight off a cold.

Sorry can't agree there at all. Both are young lads with the former having played just 2 ninety minute league games this season and the latter having played a grand total of 4. They both need a consistent run in the team. They're still learning. Neither has done badly. If you're looking to identify underperformers in the squad then look elsewhere. 

[dennyc]

57 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

I’ve never actually rated Alexander that much, would not want him back, and as you rightly state “ get over it lads he’s gone”. Unfortunately at this rate I could see us midtable in the championship with people still stating it’s all Alexander’s fault. At the moment it seems nothing is Hammell fault, fitness, organisation, confidence gone, players like Kelly and Lamie going backwards. We could put the tea lady in charge and she would be safe from criticism. Sorry but at this stage we need to look at performances under this manager, not the last one. He has been in charge since August of last year.

Not heard anybody saying Hammell has not made mistakes. And not heard anybody saying it’s all Alexander’s fault either. What I am hearing is the usual Alexander supporters attacking Hammell at every turn in what looks like an effort to prove their irrational, continued support of Alexander was justified. Just read the comments during todays game. 

Of course Hammell will be judged on his record. That’s fair enough. Some fans just think he needs leeway, time and patience to address the shitfest he inherited. And he will make mistakes. As most people readily stated when he was appointed. And the same would apply to whoever had been appointed, ex player or not.
We are not even three days into his first window and folk are slating him for not bringing in the six players we apparently need on the 1st of January. In any event, how many he can recruit is down to other factors outwith his control…...like available cash, Board support, suitable players being fit and available and those players wanting to join up. His comments regarding numbers coming in sounded to me like he was being realistic given these factors rather than his preference. 
I prefer to support him a bit longer rather than turn on him first chance I get. 

[Kmcalpin]

1 minute ago, dennyc said:

What I am hearing is the usual Alexander supporters attacking Hammell at every turn in what looks like an effort to prove their irrational, continued support of Alexander was justified. Just read the comments during todays game.

Not sure about that Denny. There are quite a few like me who thought that Alexander's time had come and gone and change was required (albeit issues around timing though), but also that Stevie Hammell was the wrong appointment and is struggling badly. I don't blame him - he was dropped in at the deep end and not surprisingly is floundering. I fully support our Board but on this occasion I think they got it wrong. It happens.    

[Great Balls of Shire]

33 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Sorry can't agree there at all. Both are young lads with the former having played just 2 ninety minute league games this season and the latter having played a grand total of 4. They both need a consistent run in the team. They're still learning. Neither has done badly. If you're looking to identify underperformers in the squad then look elsewhere. 

It will be interesting to see what areas hammel strengthens to see if he rates them...mkinstry shows some nice touches but just not enough... shields caused more problems today and put in better crosses 

Cornelius just seems to run about but not do much 

Not a popular opinion, I know, they're well fans and young , so I'd love the two of them to be cracking players too

 

[Onthefringes]

8 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

It will be interesting to see what areas hammel strengthens to see if he rates them...mkinstry shows some nice touches but just not enough... shields caused more problems today and put in better crosses 

Cornelius just seems to run about but not do much 

Not a popular opinion, I know, they're well fans and young , so I'd love the two of them to be cracking players too

Played football much?

What is it you want them to do? Seems opinion based on adopting a flying anorak approach chasing around the pitch launching into tackles.

Take last 2 outings for example. Done the tasks being asked to do. Someone has to do the doggy runs, it brings a natural energy to the team & helps drive us forward more often than not. Covered every blade of grass at Ibrox and one reason Rangers never overran us as has been a theme last few months. Yesterday was spent matching the opposition so ball was overhead for majority. 10 minutes aside of a few misplaced passes, he snapped out of that.

Our one midfielder who’s willing to go beyond our forward line and capable of getting back.

Said it before, the midfield has to be the sum of all parts - Both Alexander & Hammell looked to add the experienced head required. Had either been successful it would’ve been of benefit to the relatively inexperienced Slattery and certainly Cornelius.

[David]

11 hours ago, dennyc said:

The question I have is why above average players like Watt and O'Hara ...to a lesser degree Donnelly.....wanted to leave in the first place. In my opinion that was down to Alexander and the way they they were unfairly treated/ignored. For a time Slattery was in the same boat. I don't believe for a second it was about the cash which is the reason often put forward on here. Bottom line is that Alexander did not want them. It was a choice, however, that he was entitled to make.

Tony Watt left because he was offered more money by a club that has more resources than we do, simple as that. 

O'Hara? Yeah, I'm not sure he fit into Alexander's way of playing. That's not to say he isn't a good player, but if he's not suited to the system or style of play then there's no point in him being here.

It's football. It happens. 

9 hours ago, dennyc said:

Not heard anybody saying Hammell has not made mistakes. And not heard anybody saying it’s all Alexander’s fault either. What I am hearing is the usual Alexander supporters attacking Hammell at every turn in what looks like an effort to prove their irrational, continued support of Alexander was justified. Just read the comments during todays game. 

If you're talking about comments I made, all I've done is state facts when it comes to Alexander's time as manager. I do that because there's this mental obsession with reframing his time here to suit the agenda of reassuring ourselves that despite league positions, win percentages, and points totals he actually wasn't that good.

His style of football wasn't easy on the eye, and he certainly didn't lack confidence in himself or suffer fools gladly, which rubs certain people the wrong way. That's fair enough, but we knew all of that before hiring him. 

My main issue with how he left was the timing of it. I've said numerous times that we should either have got rid of him as soon as the season finished, as irrational as that would have been considering we'd finished 5th in the table, but it would certainly have been preferable to giving him the summer and then parting ways two days before the league kicked off, or kept him until around November or December and seen if he could get the team back on track. 

The board made a mistake in how they allowed that to play out. And the truth is, we're potentially going to pay for that with relegation. It was the type of move you see clubs who end up getting relegated making, and although we're not usually the type of club to do that, it's happened.

The bigger question now is does the board allow the same disgruntled voices who played a part in Alexander moving on to influence how we deal with Hammell? 

Parting ways with a manager days before the league season starts is worrying and as I mentioned, the kind of behaviour you see from clubs who tend to end up in relegation trouble. But binning said managers replacement five months later is even worse. 

We had a choice when we appointed Hammell. We could have gone down the route of another Alexander type who likely would have kept us up (as I'm sure Alexander himself would have), but we wanted someone young, fresh, likeable, and who played exciting football.

Well, now we have that. But we're finding out that being likeable and playing football that perhaps isn't as difficult to watch doesn't mean success.

But Hammell is the man in the seat now, and we need to back him. Changing manager again, for the second time in a season would be a disaster. There's not many clubs who do that kind of thing and go on to succeed.