numpty Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 1 hour ago, grizzlyg said: Watching the highlights was excruciating last night. Hammy picks the team but you can't legislate for the defending for our goals. Well, you kind of can. If our coaching staff aren't teaching them and practising how to stop making those kind of mistakes, then they're going to keep making them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 2 hours ago, numpty said: Well, you kind of can. If our coaching staff aren't teaching them and practising how to stop making those kind of mistakes, then they're going to keep making them. Or is the problem that they keep coaching and working but the players just can’t carry out the instructions? If we can see the issues you have to think the coaching staff also see them. That would lead me back to my point above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benson Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 2 hours ago, numpty said: Well, you kind of can. If our coaching staff aren't teaching them and practising how to stop making those kind of mistakes, then they're going to keep making them. Even Alex ferguson said once said once the players cross the line there ain't much u can do about it,you can't coach bad players to become good players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 2 hours ago, numpty said: Well, you kind of can. If our coaching staff aren't teaching them and practising how to stop making those kind of mistakes, then they're going to keep making them. That's the big problem I have, it's blatantly obvious over recent months that the team is put out with the same formation, same tactics and game plan, only the team selection changes, so why does SH and BK stick with a system / approach that is failing big time? We saw it under Alexander and its now groundhog day with the current management team, for me they are lost, no plan B, no change of formation and game plan to address the issues and give us a chance at picking up some results, its the same kick it long and chase week after week. Yes the players have to take some responsibility for the basic mistakes but if the team is constantly set up in the wrong formation , unbalanced etc with a game plan that fails every time then that's down to SH and BK, as I have said before for me they are out of their depth and frankly should never have been appointed. We need a new experienced management team, a new approach and game plan, some new faces in etc if we are going to survive, a very tall order at this stage of a season but it needs done. If we continue with the current management team and only bring in some new players, we will get relegated as it will be more of the same tactics that fail every week it seems now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 Didnt watch the game yesterday as I was travelling, but listened to it on Sportsound and was quite deflated at full time especially after reading some comments on here. Watched the entire 90 minutes back this morning dispassionately obviously knowing the result, and Im a lot less disheartened than I was. Now, I will put a disclaimer on this, as some will no doubt pounce on the my happy clappy nature. I get that results have been poor, I get that we are in a relegation battle and that things are tense. I get that we have deficiencies in our squad and that fans are concerned over the lack of changes in tactics, team selection etc that some suggest show the manager is out of his depth. That may all be correct, but hear me out. Hibs are a bigger club than us with a far superior budget, better players and should be beating our so called shitey team quite comfortably. But they are not and didnt. We were never out of that game yesterday. I actually enjoyed our play better in the first half when most observers felt we were poor. But I felt we played better football, created better chances than Hibs and should have gone in level. Second half, yes we had more possession and created some good chances and scores 2 good goals. But it was a more direct approach, dare I say Alexanderesque! Other than the 3 goals they scored, which were all self inflicted due to poor communication and poor decision making by our defenders, I dont remember Kelly having a save to make. That tells me that there IS work being done on the teaining pitch. It IS working a lot of the time, but certain players are either switching off or having a brain fart and costing us goals. The bit between the ears cant be coached and Hammell cant be blamed for that. Its down to personal responsibility. The only way players will get better at these things is with consistency of approach. Alexander was slaughtered for his "tombola selection" yet Hammell has chosen what he thinks his best 11 are and is trying to get some consistency that way. The comments about Sheilds retaining his place are justified. He has had a lot of gametime and doesnt seem to be improving (albeit played out of position) and the amount of persoanl abuse he is getting isnt going to help his confidence. He could do with some protection feom the manager. Overall, I am obviously concerned about our position, but I dont see us as certainties for the drop at all. Look at the run we have been on and yet Kilmarnock, Dundee United and Ross County are all just as bad as we are and 2 of them have the "experienced heads" that many on here are calling for. Hasnt done them much good. Back Hammell. Back the team. We can still do this. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelmaninOZ Posted January 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said: He could do with some protection feom the manager. Yes, he should be sent to a lower league on loan and then sold ASAP. He's done nothing in 18 months to suggest he'll perform any different for the next 18 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Grew Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 19 hours ago, Spiderpig said: Watch him in a game he's lazy, jogs about in games, hardly tackles, waits for the ball to come to him instead of going to win it, too easily forced off the ball, rarely if ever tracks back and generally jogs through a game looking like he does not give a feck. Yes he has scored a few goals and yes we would be a lot worse off without them, but for long periods in games he's a passenger contributing feck all, if he applied himself a bit more, we could have had another few goals and eased the position we are in, his work rate is shocking. Today's game, Kevin Nisbet just back from a 9 month injury yo his ACL, never stopped running, chased everything and got 3 goals while KVV was watching him run past him,we need players to do that not watch the game pass them by. FFS!! He may have faults - if he didn’t then he wouldn’t be at Fir Park - but Van Veen is the last player who should be getting stick - it’s only his goals that are keeping our head above water. Every week he plays up front on his own with little or no support from his supposed strike partners or from our midfield. Nobody from our midfield ever manages to get in front of him in a game and they couldn’t find him with a pass if they had sat-nav. Jeez. if he’s a passenger what does that make the other 9 jokers that are on the park with him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, El Grew said: FFS!! He may have faults - if he didn’t then he wouldn’t be at Fir Park - but Van Veen is the last player who should be getting stick - it’s only his goals that are keeping our head above water. Every week he plays up front on his own with little or no support from his supposed strike partners or from our midfield. Nobody from our midfield ever manages to get in front of him in a game and they couldn’t find him with a pass if they had sat-nav. Jeez. if he’s a passenger what does that make the other 9 jokers that are on the park with him? As I said he's lazy, shocking workrate, the other 9 may be jokers as you put it but the majority of them put a lot more effort into games than KVV does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 2 hours ago, El Grew said: FFS!! He may have faults - if he didn’t then he wouldn’t be at Fir Park - but Van Veen is the last player who should be getting stick - it’s only his goals that are keeping our head above water. Every week he plays up front on his own with little or no support from his supposed strike partners or from our midfield. Nobody from our midfield ever manages to get in front of him in a game and they couldn’t find him with a pass if they had sat-nav. Jeez. if he’s a passenger what does that make the other 9 jokers that are on the park with him? Yeah, but you need to remember this is Scotland, where you can score goals, lead the team in shots on target, and touches in the opposition box over the season so far, but if you don't "run your socks off" then you're not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppower Posted January 9, 2023 Report Share Posted January 9, 2023 22 hours ago, Spiderpig said: Watch him in a game he's lazy, jogs about in games, hardly tackles, waits for the ball to come to him instead of going to win it, too easily forced off the ball, rarely if ever tracks back and generally jogs through a game looking like he does not give a feck. Yes he has scored a few goals and yes we would be a lot worse off without them, but for long periods in games he's a passenger contributing feck all, if he applied himself a bit more, we could have had another few goals and eased the position we are in, his work rate is shocking. Today's game, Kevin Nisbet just back from a 9 month injury yo his ACL, never stopped running, chased everything and got 3 goals while KVV was watching him run past him,we need players to do that not watch the game pass them by. Ok. Take him out the team then and see how it goes for the rest of the season. Any chance we have of staying in this league will depend on his goals. Goal scorers are the hardest thing to find and the only thing people on here complain about is his attitude. I don't give a flying fuck about his attitude. And as for Nesbit scoring a hat trick a one legged man could have scored the goals he did against our non existent defense. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Grew Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 4 hours ago, Spiderpig said: As I said he's lazy, shocking workrate, the other 9 may be jokers as you put it but the majority of them put a lot more effort into games than KVV does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 16 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said: I get that results have been poor, I get that we are in a relegation battle and that things are tense. I get that we have deficiencies in our squad and that fans are concerned over the lack of changes in tactics, team selection etc that some suggest show the manager is out of his depth. That may all be correct, but hear me out. Hibs are a bigger club than us with a far superior budget, better players and should be beating our so called shitey team quite comfortably. But they are not and didnt. We were never out of that game yesterday. I actually enjoyed our play better in the first half when most observers felt we were poor. But I felt we played better football, created better chances than Hibs and should have gone in level. Second half, yes we had more possession and created some good chances and scores 2 good goals. But it was a more direct approach, dare I say Alexanderesque! Other than the 3 goals they scored, which were all self inflicted due to poor communication and poor decision making by our defenders, I dont remember Kelly having a save to make. That tells me that there IS work being done on the teaining pitch. It IS working a lot of the time, but certain players are either switching off or having a brain fart and costing us goals. The bit between the ears cant be coached and Hammell cant be blamed for that. Its down to personal responsibility. Some merit in what you write Joe. Despite our very poor run, we have lost points in many games which were very tight. We have also won points in tight games. This aspect hasn't changed in almost 6 months of Hammell's tenure. The bottom line is that we're consistently losing points in games with fine margins. We're maybe not far off being an "adequate" team but that hasn't changed in months. We lack hardness, experience (on and off the field) and a will to win. These are crucial qualities in a dogfight. Just too many hard luck stories for my liking. Yes, there is work being done on the training pitch; otherwise what is everyone doing? But is is the right work? Is it getting through? I'm no expert, but I ask that because the weaknesses we have and mistakes we make are the same as they were almost 6 months ago. We've made no progress. Management decisions in games have also cost us. You expect a greenhorn manager to make errors but they have to learn from them and Stevie shows no signs of doing that. Hard work alone never got anyone anywhere. You have to have some skill or talent to develop in tandem. As in all walks of life, being good at a personal performance job doesn't mean that you'd make a good manager. As someone else has said on here (Smiddy?) you're either a manager or you aren't. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudmfc Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 On 1/9/2023 at 9:46 AM, grizzlyg said: Watching the highlights was excruciating last night. Hammy picks the team but you can't legislate for the defending for our goals. When we can't do the basics it really is a concern. We have played 4 at the back and won 2 out of 16 games!!, Is it worth playing back 3 of mcginn Blaney Lamie and having SOD and Penney as wing backs? Just a suggestion And a good suggestion,I'd pack the midfield regardless off who it is,we need numbers in there to stop teams playing through us so easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onthefringes Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 20 hours ago, Spiderpig said: That's the big problem I have, it's blatantly obvious over recent months that the team is put out with the same formation, same tactics and game plan, only the team selection changes, so why does SH and BK stick with a system / approach that is failing big time? It’s blatantly obvious? Recent months? Same tactics and game plan? Stick with a system/approach? Not endorsing current failings, but, formation has changed. We’ve reverted to 4-3-3 in last three matches from using 4-2-3-1 to match opposition faced. It really isn’t that difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Balls of Shire Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 12 hours ago, David said: Yeah, but you need to remember this is Scotland, where you can score goals, lead the team in shots on target, and touches in the opposition box over the season so far, but if you don't "run your socks off" then you're not good enough. Even if you're a good player, you can work hard too, the really good ones do I don't know if vv is injured or lazy or what, but he could work harder, he's not that good that we can carry him. As I've said before we could be quite a few points better off, if he had tucked away at least 2 of the open goals he's missed this season 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said: Even if you're a good player, you can work hard too, the really good ones do I don't know if vv is injured or lazy or what, but he could work harder, he's not that good that we can carry him. As I've said before we could be quite a few points better off, if he had tucked away at least 2 of the open goals he's missed this season The really good ones are being paid a hell of a lot more than Van Veen is by Motherwell. Bottom line is, he's a goalscorer. He's been the top scorer for us in the two seasons he's been here so far, including this one. If he was the player he is now and also had a great work ethic we'd never have him. On top of that, he does a lot more besides just score goals. He's constantly pulling defenders out of position, drawing fouls, and he's hitting more shots and taking more touches in the box than any other player in our team, so he's doing what's asked of him. I'll say this. If he got injured in training tomorrow and was out for two months we'd be in big trouble. We could replace him with Shields who will run around all day, but last time I checked it was goals that won games and points, not miles clocked per game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Balls of Shire Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 9 minutes ago, David said: The really good ones are being paid a hell of a lot more than Van Veen is by Motherwell. Bottom line is, he's a goalscorer. He's been the top scorer for us in the two seasons he's been here so far, including this one. If he was the player he is now and also had a great work ethic we'd never have him. On top of that, he does a lot more besides just score goals. He's constantly pulling defenders out of position, drawing fouls, and he's hitting more shots and taking more touches in the box than any other player in our team, so he's doing what's asked of him. I'll say this. If he got injured in training tomorrow and was out for two months we'd be in big trouble. We could replace him with Shields who will run around all day, but last time I checked it was goals that won games and points, not miles clocked per game. I think he is a good player but the two particular chances I am thinking of show he isn't really a " goalscorer" .... anyway just looking for a bit more effort , not a big ask to compliment his ability.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 16 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said: I think he is a good player but the two particular chances I am thinking of show he isn't really a " goalscorer" .... anyway just looking for a bit more effort , not a big ask to compliment his ability.... Even the best goalscorers in the game miss chances though. Do you want him to convert every opportunity that comes his way? He is a goalscorer. That's what he does for us. He's also the top scorer this season for any team outwith Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen. The likes of Killie, Livi, Ross County and St Mirren would love to have Van Veen in their squad. He's one goal away from his tally for the entirety of last season as well, so he's on track to improve this season. I honestly don't even know why he's part of the conversation when it comes to underperformers this season. Him and Kelly are our best players by a mile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Grew Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 54 minutes ago, David said: Even the best goalscorers in the game miss chances though. Do you want him to convert every opportunity that comes his way? He is a goalscorer. That's what he does for us. He's also the top scorer this season for any team outwith Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen. The likes of Killie, Livi, Ross County and St Mirren would love to have Van Veen in their squad. He's one goal away from his tally for the entirety of last season as well, so he's on track to improve this season. I honestly don't even know why he's part of the conversation when it comes to underperformers this season. Him and Kelly are our best players by a mile. Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiddy Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 6 hours ago, Onthefringes said: It’s blatantly obvious? Recent months? Same tactics and game plan? Stick with a system/approach? Not endorsing current failings, but, formation has changed. We’ve reverted to 4-3-3 in last three matches from using 4-2-3-1 to match opposition faced. It really isn’t that difficult. OTF we can play any system SH sets up, but your obviously clued up enough on the game to know , if we individually cant defend, we lose goals, we lose goals , we lose games, i would take it your old managers wouldv booted your erse for not standing over the ball to prevent the quick free kick, under 8s feckin know that were just not switched on quick enough, or as iv said on here before you cant polish a shite ,,,,,,,, i thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onthefringes Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 13 minutes ago, smiddy said: OTF we can play any system SH sets up, but your obviously clued up enough on the game to know , if we individually cant defend, we lose goals, we lose goals , we lose games, i would take it your old managers wouldv booted your erse for not standing over the ball to prevent the quick free kick, under 8s feckin know that were just not switched on quick enough, or as iv said on here before you cant polish a shite ,,,,,,,, i thank you Not disagreeing, not the point being made though. Just seeing posted regularly on various platforms the misconception that we’ve kept same formation as previous manager when we haven’t. When you add in what some think they’ve been watching, their criticism is bordering on the absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 7 hours ago, Kmcalpin said: Some merit in what you write Joe. Despite our very poor run, we have lost points in many games which were very tight. We have also won points in tight games. This aspect hasn't changed in almost 6 months of Hammell's tenure. The bottom line is that we're consistently losing points in games with fine margins. We're maybe not far off being an "adequate" team but that hasn't changed in months. We lack hardness, experience (on and off the field) and a will to win. These are crucial qualities in a dogfight. Just too many hard luck stories for my liking. Yes, there is work being done on the training pitch; otherwise what is everyone doing? But is is the right work? Is it getting through? I'm no expert, but I ask that because the weaknesses we have and mistakes we make are the same as they were almost 6 months ago. We've made no progress. Management decisions in games have also cost us. You expect a greenhorn manager to make errors but they have to learn from them and Stevie shows no signs of doing that. Hard work alone never got anyone anywhere. You have to have some skill or talent to develop in tandem. As in all walks of life, being good at a personal performance job doesn't mean that you'd make a good manager. As someone else has said on here (Smiddy?) you're either a manager or you aren't. I agree with lots if that. But I think the mistakes being repeated are due to bad decisions by the players on the pitch. Im not sure it can get any better without better players who make better decisions. But right now, until he can get players in, Hammy has to do what he can. If consistency and repetition of process isnt working, he may have to rethink. Craigan alluded to such on Sunday during commentary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiddy Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 38 minutes ago, Onthefringes said: Not disagreeing, not the point being made though. Just seeing posted regularly on various platforms the misconception that we’ve kept same formation as previous manager when we haven’t. When you add in what some think they’ve been watching, their criticism is bordering on the absurd. and i agree with you but any system you want can be manipulated as some on here watch 4 4 2 or 4 3 2 1 or even craig laveins 5 5 0 but when the players go on the grass they have brain farts, and are possibly not doing whats theve been told and chasing paper on a windy day , 1st goal sat lamies pointing to penny about nesbit, poor pennys who had his worst game was in beetween nesbit and the guy behind him everybody pointing like peter grant but nobody actually doing what needs to be done ,, mark the feckin centre forward in the box , any way sorry bout the rant but my point is take your pick of formations and most on here will see it differant in there eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC Posted January 10, 2023 Report Share Posted January 10, 2023 Re: van Veen, he is our best forward player by some distance. Not that that would be difficult but he is probably as good a ‘No.9’ as we could hope to have given our budget. The problem is he is surrounded by too many players who don’t/can’t support him properly. If he played in a Motherwell side with Ainsworth, Ojamaa, Humphrey or Turnbull then he would be scoring alot more and we would struggle to keep hold of him, in my opinion. He was labelled as ‘the budget Bergkamp’ when he signed. Dennis Bergkamp himself would probably struggle in our forward line right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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