Stuart Kettlewell discussion thread

[Kmcalpin]

7 hours ago, star sail said:

The notion that we have any pre determined right to beat the likes of Aberdeen, Livingston, RC or Killie is unrealistic. If after a season, we find ourselves at the bottom of the league then it may be time to look at a change of manager but are we seriously suggesting that this is the correct decision after four poor games? As a sustainable model for any club that type of strategy is unworkable in the long term.

There's a middle course to be steered here. I think he can turn things around but time is running out fast. He has to do so fairly quickly. As you say, we have no pre determined right whatsoever to beat the likes of Aberdeen, Livingston, RC  Killie, or St Johnstone but by the same token we should have no expectation not to pick up points against them. To expect some decent results in that run of fixtures isn't unreasonable.

Apologies if I'm misinterpreting your comment above but it does seem somewhat.......fatalistic and passive. We cannot afford to simply wait and hope that SK turns it around. To me, its akin to watching a seemingly stricken ship struggle, and saying we'll re-assess things if it goes down. As Gazzy B wrote, if we lose the next 2 then its time for change; that would represent 1 point from 27 - worse than St Johnstone's record this season. 

Apologies for the nautical theme - completely unintended.

[star sail]

4 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

There's a middle course to be steered here. I think he can turn things around but time is running out fast. He has to do so fairly quickly. As you say, we have no pre determined right whatsoever to beat the likes of Aberdeen, Livingston, RC  Killie, or St Johnstone but by the same token we should have no expectation not to pick up points against them. To expect some decent results in that run of fixtures isn't unreasonable.

Apologies if I'm misinterpreting your comment above but it does seem somewhat.......fatalistic and passive. We cannot afford to simply wait and hope that SK turns it around. To me, its akin to watching a seemingly stricken ship struggle, and saying we'll re-assess things if it goes down. As Gazzy B wrote, if we lose the next 2 then its time for change; that would represent 1 point from 27 - worse than St Johnstone's record this season. 

Apologies for the nautical theme - completely unintended.

I don't disagree with what you say but the tendency is to focus on the bad rather than the good. 

It is four poor games in what has otherwise been a successful time with Kettlewell as manager. I think it can be useful to look at the wider context.

I think some are looking at the situation from the perspective that we have lost the next two games already. Let's at least see what actually happens and then look again at the situation next weekend. 

We never know. With the unpredictable nature of Scottish football we could be looking at two wins and sitting on  17 points by this time next week. Aberdeen have had a week just like that having looked in some difficulty last weekend.

[Kmcalpin]

2 minutes ago, star sail said:

I think some are looking at the situation from the perspective that we have lost the next two games already. Let's at least see what actually happens and then look again at the situation next weekend. 

We never know. With the unpredictable nature of Scottish football we could be looking at two wins and sitting on  17 points by this time next week. Aberdeen have had a week just like that having looked in some difficulty last weekend.

Yes, we could be looking at 2 wins. Its by no means impossible. Until recently I never believed in bad luck but of late we have suffered some real body blows. Even on Saturday we suffered bad fortune in the shape of several injuries Hopefully that will change. I think the worst posible outcome for the club in the next 2 games is inconclusive results. A couple of unconvincing draws or a single draw. 

Its a shocking statistic I know, but Stuart Kettlewell is currently the 6th longest serving manager in the Premiership (Barry Robson in 5th beats him by only 14 days). Football has changed and the days of long serving managers like Sailor Hunter, George Stevenson and Bobby Howitt are long gone.  Clubs face huge financial pressures these days, with the cost of failure being catastrophic. We, the fans, are far more demanding now than we were say 20 or 30 years ago. The pressure on managers and directors is huge.  

[wellfan]

8 hours ago, star sail said:

Kettlewell did a great job to keep us up last season.

It's beginning to look a lot like it was actually KVV who did a great job of keeping us up last season. 

[wellfan]

12 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

You can't fire a manager every time you hit a bad spell.

I agree, but when does the bad spell become a terminal decline?

[Kmcalpin]

1 minute ago, wellfan said:

I agree, but when does the bad spell become a terminal decline?

No hard and fast definition but I'd say if a manager fails to achieve a single win in a complete round of fixtures, say 11 games. We're now heading towards that. Two tough but normally winnable games coming up but then we face Celtic at Parkhead. Hopefully we'd act before we'd reach the stage of terminal decline. 

I think you're right about KVV - he was an "unusual and exceptional factor" in our run of results last term. SK deserves credit though for bringing out the best in him.  

[wellfan]

7 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

SK deserves credit though for bringing out the best in him.  

I used to think that, but now I'm beginning to think that KVV deserves credit for bringing out the best in SK. 

From my perspective, SK had little part to play in KVV being immense at the right time. I think the only motivation KVV needed was his chance of a big payday back home, which he worked his absolute socks off for and deserves, and we (including SK) benefitted from that exceptional individual effort and talent. 

[steelboy]

12 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

 

For a start if you start doing that you'll never attract any decent quality managers because no one will want to join a club were you are 6 or 7 games away from the sack.

 

Name one manager that survived 10 games without a win recently?

[star sail]

44 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

 

Its a shocking statistic I know, but Stuart Kettlewell is currently the 6th longest serving manager in the Premiership (Barry Robson in 5th beats him by only 14 days). Football has changed and the days of long serving managers like Sailor Hunter, George Stevenson and Bobby Howitt are long gone.  Clubs face huge financial pressures these days, with the cost of failure being catastrophic. We, the fans, are far more demanding now than we were say 20 or 30 years ago. The pressure on managers and directors is huge.  

That is  indeed a shocking statistic and highlights very well what we are talking about here. 

I think I am right in saying that Craig Brown is our only manager not to be sacked by the club  in the last decade or so. What does that tell us? That all the other managers were useless or that the job of Motherwell manager verges on the impossible? 

Some would have us believe that all the managers were useless. My opinion would be that every one of them ( with the possible exception of Hammell unfortunately) did a good job in difficult circumstances and all contributed to Motherwell continued top league survival.

[grizzlyg]

I think roughly...SK has lost 8 out of about 36 league games which sounds great until you realise 6 defeat were in last 7. Our first away league defeat under him was at Ibrox recently.

I totally get the whole KVV saving us part but to play devil's advocate he was also part of the team that was badly underperforming under Hammell.

SK's recruitment of strikers has been Achilles heel which we all know but I still have faith he can turn it round.  He picks the side but the players have a massive responsibility also and they have been shocking the last 3 games, especially some of the more experienced ones.    We can't just keep changing managers but at same time fully understand this run can't continue.   Keep the faith as Bon Jovi once said

[wellfan]

12 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Keep the faith as Bon Jovi once said

 I hear what you're saying, but he also said, "going down in a blaze of glory" and "livin' on a prayer".

In all seriousness, I'm not calling for the manager's head, but as I said above, at what point do we recognise that a bad spell has become terminal? Persisting with a busted flush because we can't be seen to empty yet another manager has all the whiffs of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, although I don't think we're there yet. Tuesday is now massive, however.

[star sail]

6 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

I think roughly...SK has lost 8 out of about 36 league games which sounds great until you realise 6 defeat were in last 7. Our first away league defeat under him was at Ibrox recently.

 

Good point. If these figures are right it is pretty impressive. 8 in 36 would have us finishing top 6 in a league season. Do we really want to sack a manager with that record?

There is a few mitigating factors in the last 7 games. Firstly two of these games were against the OF and could so easily have been draws. 

Secondly we have missed a couple of key players in Biereth and Butcher. Yes, they are now back but they have to be given time to get back to full match fitness.

KVV is the X factor that makes both past and current form difficult to quantify. We can only hope that Biereth fills that gap when fully fit. 

A 1-0 defeat at Rugby Park is not uncommon. We have had results like that during good spells in the past. I think we need to see how the next two games play out before jumping  to any conclusions.

The Ibrox game seems a long time ago now but was actually only just over a month ago. It is funny how quickly the mood music changes.

 

[grizzlyg]

16 minutes ago, wellfan said:

 I hear what you're saying, but he also said, "going down in a blaze of glory" and "livin' on a prayer".

In all seriousness, I'm not calling for the manager's head, but as I said above, at what point do we recognise that a bad spell has become terminal? Persisting with a busted flush because we can't be seen to empty yet another manager has all the whiffs of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, although I don't think we're there yet. Tuesday is now massive, however.

And Bair and Wilko give strikers "a bad name" 🤪🤪

[wellfan]

1 minute ago, grizzlyg said:

And Bair and Wilko give strikers "a bad name" 🤪🤪

That cheered me up, thanks!

[grizzlyg]

21 minutes ago, wellfan said:

That cheered me up, thanks!

No worries pal, I aims to please 🤣🤣

[Ya Bezzer!]

2 hours ago, steelboy said:

Name one manager that survived 10 games without a win recently?

The recent trend of giving managers no time doesn't make it right.  in fact it's part of the reason Scottish football is so dire.

8 months, maybe 2 windows and if you hit a bad spell see you later and another another rookie manager gets appointed.

I was never a big fan of Robinson but is it any surprise he's built a better team on a fraction of the budget than Naismith or Robson?  You need time to learn and build as a manager.  

I've said it before, the greatest Motherwell manager of my time would have been sacked years before he won the cup and almost won the league in the current climate.

The current climate is whack.

Back in the days mobs formed on Fir Park street screaming for McLean to get fired.  We had a chairman that actually supported the manager back then. Nowadays they are weaklings that cave to any pressure.

It's hard enough to grow a team in the first place, starting from scratch because you can't hack the slightest adversity makes in impossible.

[bobbybingo]

15 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

The recent trend of giving managers no time doesn't make it right.  in fact it's part of the reason Scottish football is so dire.

8 months, maybe 2 windows and if you hit a bad spell see you later and another another rookie manager gets appointed.

I was never a big fan of Robinson but is it any surprise he's built a better team on a fraction of the budget than Naismith or Robson?  You need time to learn and build as a manager.  

I've said it before, the greatest Motherwell manager of my time would have been sacked years before he won the cup and almost won the league in the current climate.

The current climate is whack.

Back in the days mobs formed on Fir Park street screaming for McLean to get fired.  We had a chairman that actually supported the manager back then. Nowadays they are weaklings that cave to any pressure.

It's hard enough to grow a team in the first place, starting from scratch because you can't hack the slightest adversity makes in impossible.

You simply can't compare Tommy McLean's time with today. In those days a manager could attempt to buy his way out of a really bad spell, there was no transfer window to tie his hands. If a club is stuck on a losing run now, the boss better pray it happens in December. Otherwise, him getting the boot is the only change that can be made.

I doubt any manager would actually want to stay at Fir Park for 10 years these days. Building a successful team has become almost impossible when any decent player is off within 6 months or a year. Look at the countless duds Tommy brought in before he got there with a couple of sides. We haven't seen his like again and almost certainly never will.

[joewarkfanclub]

If you look at the 7 game run without a win and take the emotion out of the situation, I dont think our form is anywhere near as bad as some are making out.

St Mirren - good performance, played them off the park, spurned numerous good chances. Got done on the counter.

Rangers - outstanding performance. Done by a wicked deflection and some dodgy refereeing.

Celtic - good solid defensive display. Gave little away and did well to come back and equalise after conceding. Should have seen the game out but switched off to lose in injury time.

Livvy - solid if uninspiring first half performance on a horrible pitch. Undone by a questionable red card that turned the game in Livvys favour.

Ross County - terrible first half performance but dug out a point in the end with a spirited late comeback.

Aberdeen - absolutely woeful. The 2 goals at the end paper over some of the cracks in what was easily our worst display under SK.

Killie - solid enough first half performance on another poor pitch. Questionable long ball tactics. Coughed up another soft goal that left us chasing the game and open on the counter.

As K McAlpin has said, we have been dealt some really bad luck on this run which has contributed to our failure to collect more points. Sure the manager and players could have made better decisions at times, but thats normal for most football clubs during the course of a season.  I would say that the only 2 games where I felt our performances were alarmingly bad were the first 60 minutes v Ross County and the Aberdeen game. The fact that both games were at Fir Park and on a fantastic playing surface is my biggest cause for concern. Now I know, the league table doesnt measure performances and a run of 7 games without a win is very poor, so Im not saying that Im not concerned about where we may be heading. But its time for calm heads. We just got Butcher and Biereth back who will be important players for us. I also thought Blaney looked very good yesterday, furst half in particular, so we are starting to get options that allow SK to make changes. 

The next 2 games are huge. We simply have to take something from them to arrest this slide. 

[steelboy]

41 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

 

I've said it before, the greatest Motherwell manager of my time would have been sacked years before he won the cup and almost won the league in the current climate.

It's hard enough to grow a team in the first place, starting from scratch because you can't hack the slightest adversity makes in impossible.

Funnily enough football has changed in the past 35 years. The economics of TV money are completely different, contracts are different with Bosman. There's no comparison to be made between now and then. Tommy McLean signed Brian Martin and Paul Lambert from St Mirren. Adjusted for inflation the fees are a combined £900,000 in 2023 money. Clearly we can't back managers to succeed via transfer fees anymore. 

The club gave Kettlewell an opportunity and he fucked it in the summer with his signings. We don't owe him anything else beyond the next two games.

Aberdeen have done ok in Europe, are in a Cup final and will almost certainly finish above St Mirren. Robinson has never carried good league form through the New Year for a reason. 

 

 

 

 

 

[steelboy]

17 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

If  I would say that the only 2 games where I felt our performances were alarmingly bad were the first 60 minutes v Ross County and the Aberdeen game. 

If yesterday's longball fest which resulted in 1 shot on target wasn't alarming then I think we can discount the rest of the post. 

[wellsince75]

We're in an odd position with SK. 

If we brought in a mgr with a win 50% win percentage fans would be delighted. 

It's the feast/famine that is hard to take. Albeit no-one complained when we had the feast.
 
Had there been an even spread of wins/defeats draws over the last 30 games, with a 50% win rate I reckon we'd all be reasonably satisfied with progress. 

It's the run of 7 games without a win that kills the mood and creates an intolerance. Coupled with recent games not creating any real chances.

A similar famine killed off the likes of McCall, Robinson and to a lesser degree Alexander.  All clubs good through good/bad spells, we could do with ours being less polarising. 

SK needs to turn things around and we do need to start winning games but give him the opportunity to do it.  

 

[SteelmaninOZ]

18 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

We're in an odd position with SK. 

If we brought in a mgr with a win 50% win percentage fans would be delighted. 

It's the feast/famine that is hard to take. Albeit no-one complained when we had the feast.
 
Had there been an even spread of wins/defeats draws over the last 30 games, with a 50% win rate I reckon we'd all be reasonably satisfied with progress. 

It's the run of 7 games without a win that kills the mood and creates an intolerance. Coupled with recent games not creating any real chances.

A similar famine killed off the likes of McCall, Robinson and to a lesser degree Alexander.  All clubs good through good/bad spells, we could do with ours being less polarising. 

SK needs to turn things around and we do need to start winning games but give him the opportunity to do it.  

 

I agree with that 

[wunderwell]

1 hour ago, steelboy said:

Funnily enough football has changed in the past 35 years. The economics of TV money are completely different, contracts are different with Bosman. There's no comparison to be made between now and then. Tommy McLean signed Brian Martin and Paul Lambert from St Mirren. Adjusted for inflation the fees are a combined £900,000 in 2023 money. Clearly we can't back managers to succeed via transfer fees anymore. 

The club gave Kettlewell an opportunity and he fucked it in the summer with his signings. We don't owe him anything else beyond the next two games.

Aberdeen have done ok in Europe, are in a Cup final and will almost certainly finish above St Mirren. Robinson has never carried good league form through the New Year for a reason. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolute doom and gloom panic merchant.

[Kmcalpin]

56 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

It's the feast/famine that is hard to take. Albeit no-one complained when we had the feast.
 
Had there been an even spread of wins/defeats draws over the last 30 games, with a 50% win rate I reckon we'd all be reasonably satisfied with progress. 

It's the run of 7 games without a win that kills the mood and creates an intolerance. Coupled with recent games not creating any real chances.

This is it for me and  possibly for many others. We all knew the great run would come to an end at some point. However we are in the here and now and that's what matters to the SPFL. That's what determines income,  league placing, relegation; and from a fan's perspective, enjoyment. 

Wrong as it may be, 1 point from 7 games is very, very poor. 1 point from 30 would be catastrophic. 

[joewarkfanclub]

2 hours ago, steelboy said:

If yesterday's longball fest which resulted in 1 shot on target wasn't alarming then I think we can discount the rest of the post. 

Given the context of the game, the pitch we were playing on and the fact that we were far more solid defensively and well in the game at a difficult venue at half time, I think the managers tactic can be justified.

I didnt like it and it wasnt great to watch but after 6 games without a win, he had to do something different.

Had we won the game 1-0 in an absolute shitfest yesterday, no one would have complained.