twistandshout1983 Posted August 31 Report Share Posted August 31 Time to cut Stuart Kettlewell a bit of slack I think Was mentioned before today’s game he has a 43% win ratio . No doubt a few people will say most were in his first 3 months , and a few cup wins against diddy teams If you then think all the draws when we could have lost , and defeats where we have still been competitive more often than not, in the recent past before this we may have lost 4,5 or 6 he has done a good job in my opinion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellsince75 Posted August 31 Report Share Posted August 31 With less than 12 months left on contract I can see why we offered new deals . If SK was a promising young player doing well we’d want to protect him and get him signed . Same principles apply as a manager. He’s young and crafted a very decent points tally in his tenure . Still got lots to learn . To help him I genuinely believe we need to do something different on the recruitment front . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted August 31 Report Share Posted August 31 A rolling contract makes sense. Means no one can come poach SK or Frail without paying us a fee, and if we need to get rid, its never more than 12 months to pay up. Gives us stability and is a good message to send out to this squad, who all clearly buy into what SK is preaching. I also read that its something Brian Caldwell has done at previous clubs, so maybe just the CEO taking care of business...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuwell2 Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 I’ll start by saying I’m not looking for SK to be sacked as avoiding relegation, reaching a semi final and having us in the top half of the league are the things that I want to see our manager achieving in a season and so far he’s ticking the boxes well. Now the rub, what I’d also like and expect to see - at least on occasions - is a team that plays a style of football that has me leaving the game buzzing and looking forward to the next game. Unfortunately I feel I’m leaving most games feeling that we’re slowly grinding our way to premiership survival and hoping that what we are watching improves. We see glimpses of some of the talent we have but frustratingly for me in attack our midfield and forward lines seldomly click. This is where my issues with SK and the club hierarchy are, SK is a young manager who I believe needs guidance but with no director of football who’s doing this? I’ve read stories of manager’s talking about being in contact with their ex managers who were successful managers and taking advice from them but I don’t think SK has this so is there something he and the club can do to help him improve as a manager rather then him learning as he goes? Maybe quietly and without publicity pay an older experienced manager to mentor him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodo Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 50 minutes ago, Stuwell2 said: I’ll start by saying I’m not looking for SK to be sacked as avoiding relegation, reaching a semi final and having us in the top half of the league are the things that I want to see our manager achieving in a season and so far he’s ticking the boxes well. Now the rub, what I’d also like and expect to see - at least on occasions - is a team that plays a style of football that has me leaving the game buzzing and looking forward to the next game. Unfortunately I feel I’m leaving most games feeling that we’re slowly grinding our way to premiership survival and hoping that what we are watching improves. We see glimpses of some of the talent we have but frustratingly for me in attack our midfield and forward lines seldomly click. This is where my issues with SK and the club hierarchy are, SK is a young manager who I believe needs guidance but with no director of football who’s doing this? I’ve read stories of manager’s talking about being in contact with their ex managers who were successful managers and taking advice from them but I don’t think SK has this so is there something he and the club can do to help him improve as a manager rather then him learning as he goes? Maybe quietly and without publicity pay an older experienced manager to mentor him? More excuses for the manager typical Well fan outlook . He signed the players at his disposal everybody knew we needed a striker and a holdin midfielder with quality . There is no one to blame except the manager but the fans will probably accept another losing run like last season 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 42 minutes ago, Yodo said: More excuses for the manager typical Well fan outlook . He signed the players at his disposal everybody knew we needed a striker and a holdin midfielder with quality . There is no one to blame except the manager but the fans will probably accept another losing run like last season You obviously missed the part where he criticised the manager. Out of interest, which striker and quality holding midfielder do you suggest he signed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuwell2 Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 3 minutes ago, Yodo said: More excuses for the manager typical Well fan outlook . He signed the players at his disposal everybody knew we needed a striker and a holdin midfielder with quality . There is no one to blame except the manager but the fans will probably accept another losing run like last season More of the same from you sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodo Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 2 minutes ago, Stuwell2 said: More of the same from you sadly. You mean the truth take yer heed oot the sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuwell2 Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 10 minutes ago, Yodo said: You mean the truth take yer heed oot the sand Aye ok Scully. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 2 hours ago, Stuwell2 said: I’ll start by saying I’m not looking for SK to be sacked as avoiding relegation, reaching a semi final and having us in the top half of the league are the things that I want to see our manager achieving in a season and so far he’s ticking the boxes well. Now the rub, what I’d also like and expect to see - at least on occasions - is a team that plays a style of football that has me leaving the game buzzing and looking forward to the next game. Unfortunately I feel I’m leaving most games feeling that we’re slowly grinding our way to premiership survival and hoping that what we are watching improves. We see glimpses of some of the talent we have but frustratingly for me in attack our midfield and forward lines seldomly click. This is where my issues with SK and the club hierarchy are, SK is a young manager who I believe needs guidance but with no director of football who’s doing this? I’ve read stories of manager’s talking about being in contact with their ex managers who were successful managers and taking advice from them but I don’t think SK has this so is there something he and the club can do to help him improve as a manager rather then him learning as he goes? Maybe quietly and without publicity pay an older experienced manager to mentor him? I would say that appointing Steven Frail as his number two shows his acceptance that he needed guidance from someone much more experienced. Do we really need to spend a high salary on a director of football? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 44 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said: Out of interest, which striker and quality holding midfielder do you suggest he signed? The guy has a wage budget for players that's over £3 million a year. He signed 17 players in the summer. Clearly we should have more quality than we have at the moment and he completely failed to strengthen two positions that everyone identified as most important. With every window that goes by with Kettlewell in charge the squad gets worse and there's more money down the drain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewelllfan Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 I'll start this by saying I think Kettlewell is a decent manager and we've had a good start to the season and I am not wanting him sacked This isn't just on him but we have signed a lot of injury-prone players and then moaning that they get injured i find a bit mad. I.e Nicholson, Callahan can even through Mcginn and Slattery in if you like all miss a number of games through injuries. Him and Recruitment department must do better as we seem to sign a crock near enough every season. I also think the coaching playing out the back desperatley needs improved the amount of times our Cbs were playing aimless long-balls was quite concerning, that Rangers team weren't great and if we we're even 10% better on the ball we'd probably win the game. Couple that with some of the subs made yesterday, Taveres, Robinson, Blaney. (Sparrow should of came on for Wilson imo but that was more understandable), Maswanhise was our only real threat so taking him off when he did didn't make a lot of sense to me. Koutrombis should of came on at RWB instaed of shifting Casey there . Ebiye instead of Robinson and Watt instead of Taveres in my humble opinion. While Kettlewell has done a lot of good for the club he's still got to be held accountable when he gets things wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 1 hour ago, steelboy said: The guy has a wage budget for players that's over £3 million a year. He signed 17 players in the summer. Clearly we should have more quality than we have at the moment and he completely failed to strengthen two positions that everyone identified as most important. With every window that goes by with Kettlewell in charge the squad gets worse and there's more money down the drain. Ok. Since your keen to answer the question I put to Yodo, which quality holding midfielder and striker would you have signed with the £3m at your disposal? Id also argue whether the squad gets worse with every window under Kettlewell. You were similarly critical of Robinson and Alexander and the players he signed. Kettlewell has got most of them out the door. He has also improved our defence which everyone agreed required attention. Clearly we still need to address certain areas of the squad and I agree signing more quality over quantity is advantageous for a club with our budget, but sometimes the players you want or need arent available and you need to make do with what you can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodo Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said: You obviously missed the part where he criticised the manager. Out of interest, which striker and quality holding midfielder do you suggest he signed? That’s his job and wouldnae been hard to sign better than what he did . Instead of quality he signed quantity to fill up the treatment room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 The thing is nobody knows what players Kettlewell tried to bring into the club at the start of the season. For all we know the players we signed could have been 2nd/3rd/4th choices. I would be more concerned if some of them were his 1st choice though as that would question his judgement or on the other hand could just as easily have reflected our budget constraints. As far as the style of play is concerned have a look through the forums of all the other teams in the SPL with the possible exception of Celtic and Aberdeen and the fans are all moaning about the same style of football and tactics we are. It's more down to the quality of the League which is getting worse with each passing season and it's now more about not wanting to lose rather than win a game. I've watched quite a few non Motherwell games this season and they've mostly been all been turgid shit with each team more interested in cancelling the other one out rather than trying to entertain the fans. If anyone knows of some attack minded free flowing football manager out there who would transform the way we play while keeping within budget and free from relegation then feel free to name him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 The fact that this discussion is even happening while we're sitting 5th with a four-point lead and a game in hand over the team in 6th spot, and fresh off a cup semi-final loss to Rangers is absolutely wild. I see that the usual suspects are moving the goalposts like crazy. They can't complain about us not challenging for top six or a decent cup run, because we're getting that at the moment. It requires some creative thinking and mental gymnastics to keep the narrative going at this stage. So, what are we getting instead? Chat like "shitebag, idiot & donkey," and vague patter about possession percentages, bravery, identity and other intangible nonsense. It all can be summed up as follows: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 20 minutes ago, David said: The fact that this discussion is even happening while we're sitting 5th with a four-point lead and a game in hand over the team in 6th spot, and fresh off a cup semi-final loss to Rangers is absolutely wild. I see that the usual suspects are moving the goalposts like crazy. They can't complain about us not challenging for top six or a decent cup run, because we're getting that at the moment. It requires some creative thinking and mental gymnastics to keep the narrative going at this stage. So, what are we getting instead? Chat like "shitebag, idiot & donkey," and vague patter about possession percentages, bravery, identity and other intangible nonsense. It all can be summed up as follows: Superb petty stuff from the chief antagonist here. It must be so joyful being so persistently intolerant/dismissive of others’ views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 57 minutes ago, Yodo said: Instead of quality he signed quantity to fill up the treatment room Im sure thats what he was trying to do when he made those signings...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 1 hour ago, santheman said: It's more down to the quality of the League which is getting worse with each passing season and it's now more about not wanting to lose rather than win a game. As i've said that's down to a core of managers who are happy to spoil games and hope to grab something then go on the BBC and insult the intelligence of anyone who actually saw the game. Kettlewell, Robinson, Goodwin, Gray and McInnes are all killing this league. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 19 minutes ago, steelboy said: As i've said that's down to a core of managers who are happy to spoil games and hope to grab something then go on the BBC and insult the intelligence of anyone who actually saw the game. Kettlewell, Robinson, Goodwin, Gray and McInnes are all killing this league. Have to agree with that but don't think anything will change in the near future. I hate to admit it but I'm finding it harder to motivate myself to go to games against certain teams knowing the kind of football that's going to be on show. I also find myself going to more local WOSL games where you at least get some entertainment, recently saw a 5 4 and a 7 2 game. Something I never thought I'd be doing not all that long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motherwellfc1991 Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 On our league position - right now it’s very healthy and if this continues then there’s little argument on the manager . The purpose of finishing higher and higher is to get more money and then in turn improve the team/player standard and the club - that’s where the debate can really start at the end of this season when we see the league position against the balance sheet. Whether the happy clappy brigade want to admit it or not the standard on show and the product on the pitch is dreadful to watch but that is a lot down to the how the manager sets the team up. It’s a fine balance of course but yesterday for me and the lack of any standard does stop people coming to fir park. Not many of the extra 4k at the game yesterday will be back anytime soon. Apart from the occasion itself there’s next to nothing to bring them back - a defensive team - a team with no style - hoofball - zero entertainment - a team chasing shadows with no out ball - a team that couldn’t force a save out an opposition goalkeeper with one real chance in 90 minutes - a team with players that jog rather than sprint 5 minutes after they come on - a team with a manager who chooses his own deluded take on proceedings As I said at the top now’s not the time to judge a manager fully , the end of the season is but even the most claret and amber tinted glass wearing happy clappy must see that set ups and performances like yesterday won’t tap into this fan base people at the club and the full society board keep harping on about. We the fans filled the allocation yesterday backed the team and we got zero entertainment and a manger in my opinion who didn’t know how to beat the poorest new rangers team in their history - that mainly due to poor signings and a naivety of what a proper performance never mind the result could have done to attract the floating fan back for more. Pass marks so far for league position but yesterday an epic fail to bolster our fans back to Fir Park rhetoric that’s being pushed by many inside the club/society 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 34 minutes ago, Motherwellfc1991 said: On our league position - right now it’s very healthy and if this continues then there’s little argument on the manager . The purpose of finishing higher and higher is to get more money and then in turn improve the team/player standard and the club - that’s where the debate can really start at the end of this season when we see the league position against the balance sheet. Whether the happy clappy brigade want to admit it or not the standard on show and the product on the pitch is dreadful to watch but that is a lot down to the how the manager sets the team up. It’s a fine balance of course but yesterday for me and the lack of any standard does stop people coming to fir park. Not many of the extra 4k at the game yesterday will be back anytime soon. Apart from the occasion itself there’s next to nothing to bring them back - a defensive team - a team with no style - hoofball - zero entertainment - a team chasing shadows with no out ball - a team that couldn’t force a save out an opposition goalkeeper with one real chance in 90 minutes - a team with players that jog rather than sprint 5 minutes after they come on - a team with a manager who chooses his own deluded take on proceedings As I said at the top now’s not the time to judge a manager fully , the end of the season is but even the most claret and amber tinted glass wearing happy clappy must see that set ups and performances like yesterday won’t tap into this fan base people at the club and the full society board keep harping on about. We the fans filled the allocation yesterday backed the team and we got zero entertainment and a manger in my opinion who didn’t know how to beat the poorest new rangers team in their history - that mainly due to poor signings and a naivety of what a proper performance never mind the result could have done to attract the floating fan back for more. Pass marks so far for league position but yesterday an epic fail to bolster our fans back to Fir Park rhetoric that’s being pushed by many inside the club/society I dont disagree with a lot of your post, but I am starting to get a bit fed up with the Happy Clappy tag as i I dont think its remotely accurate. However, given Im clearly in the group assigned the label I will respond. I havent read a single post by the so called Happy Clappy Brigade that professes to be satisfied with the standard of football entertainment we are being presented with this season. In fact most of us are actually quite critical when its merited. Its just usually done in a constructive manner. Defence of the manager under fire from the usual suspects doesn't mean that you think everything he does its perfect. It just means you apportion some realism to the situation. I would love for us to play more attacking football and be more entertaining, but our league position is good and we got to a cup semi final despite being a limited group of players. This is also the same manager that got 28 goals out of KVV and 15 out of Theo Bair. Anyone really saying large parts of that werent entertaining? I view us being a team / squad in transition at present. Im reasonably happy that our keeper and defence have been upgraded. The next stage has to be midfield, after that I think we will be able to assess more accurately whether any of our strikers are any good ( I personally think Stama will turn out to be a find, and at 22 its probably toi early to right off Robinson, regardless of how critical I have been of him thus far). As you rightly say, the time to judge the manager and his signings are at the end of the season. The fact that this time last year Theo Bair had scored 1 goal should be a lesson for everyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villageman Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 28 minutes ago, Motherwellfc1991 said: On our league position - right now it’s very healthy and if this continues then there’s little argument on the manager . The purpose of finishing higher and higher is to get more money and then in turn improve the team/player standard and the club - that’s where the debate can really start at the end of this season when we see the league position against the balance sheet. Whether the happy clappy brigade want to admit it or not the standard on show and the product on the pitch is dreadful to watch but that is a lot down to the how the manager sets the team up. It’s a fine balance of course but yesterday for me and the lack of any standard does stop people coming to fir park. Not many of the extra 4k at the game yesterday will be back anytime soon. Apart from the occasion itself there’s next to nothing to bring them back - a defensive team - a team with no style - hoofball - zero entertainment - a team chasing shadows with no out ball - a team that couldn’t force a save out an opposition goalkeeper with one real chance in 90 minutes - a team with players that jog rather than sprint 5 minutes after they come on - a team with a manager who chooses his own deluded take on proceedings As I said at the top now’s not the time to judge a manager fully , the end of the season is but even the most claret and amber tinted glass wearing happy clappy must see that set ups and performances like yesterday won’t tap into this fan base people at the club and the full society board keep harping on about. We the fans filled the allocation yesterday backed the team and we got zero entertainment and a manger in my opinion who didn’t know how to beat the poorest new rangers team in their history - that mainly due to poor signings and a naivety of what a proper performance never mind the result could have done to attract the floating fan back for more. Pass marks so far for league position but yesterday an epic fail to bolster our fans back to Fir Park rhetoric that’s being pushed by many inside the club/society Add the mindless striker subs and the decision to switch Casey to wing back where his mistake led to the second goal and this post says it all for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizzlyg Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 Simple fact is some folk just hate Kettlewell and will never be convinced about him. I would take him over Alexander any day, Kettlewell is a likeable guy where as Alexander just alienated himself. I am certainly not a happy clapper, more a Constructive criticism wee chap. I was angry with the tactics and substitutions same as everybody else but this season in total we have lost 5 games ( 3 v old firm, away to Aberdeen and home to dundee) the last one yes was a shocker. Hardly sackable form in my opinion but obviously folk will disagree. Onto Saturday and hopefully bounce back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellsince75 Posted November 4 Report Share Posted November 4 Kettlewell has his flaws - as will any manager and any player who comes through our club. If he was the perfect manager he wouldn't be with us and wouldn't be in Scotland. The pro's come down to 1) his record he's won +40% of games over 70 games. That's very decent for MFC manager. 2)his workrate and valuing the overall coherence of a team. 3) doing the ugly side of the game well. 4) playing young talent and given them a chance 5)He moves on players who aren't to his taste. His flaws are 1) A large chunk of signings have proven to be pretty poor. 2) several signings aka Obika, Callaghan, Nicholson all with proven injury records. 3) lack of entertainment - other than youngsters there's not much to get you on your feet (same could be said for vast majority of SPL) Overall must be one of the better managers we've had. Very similar to Robinson's stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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