Stuart Kettlewell discussion thread

[wellgirl]

Just now, grizzlyg said:

I don't hate Kettlewell. But he needs to turn things round. If he does I will be first on here apologising 

You don't. But some people act like they do. I've seen it all over social media. The name calling - the demands that he gets out of our club. Completely pathetic in my view. I actually don't know why anyone would come to this club given the abuse thats dished out to managers when some fans think it's time for the manager to go. 

I'm not talking about the booing. I'm talking about the name calling on social media - I get why he doesn't look at it 

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, wellgirl said:

 I actually don't know why anyone would come to this club given the abuse thats dished out to managers when some fans think it's time for the manager to go.

Its a sad fact of life that managers suffer abuse at almost all clubs when things go pear shaped. Our club and fans are no exception but not nearly in the same league as has happened elsewhere thankfully.

[Spit_It_Out]

It will never change sadly but it be fair it's not really that bad on here it's more  constructive of the actual formation and player selections it's never really personal.

It's this old paid my ticket mindset which has morphed into faceless social media which has took it to a other level.

Imagine players/managers/officials went into these morons work place and treated them by throwing coins at them,threaten there families and such,calling there wives and kids every name under the sun.How this has become so normal is beyond me but nothing really gets done about it same old same old.

 

[stv]

9 minutes ago, Spit_It_Out said:

It will never change sadly but it be fair it's not really that bad on here it's more  constructive of the actual formation and player selections it's never really personal.

It's this old paid my ticket mindset which has morphed into faceless social media which has took it to a other level.

Imagine players/managers/officials went into these morons work place and treated them by throwing coins at them,threaten there families and such,calling there wives and kids every name under the sun.How this has become so normal is beyond me but nothing really gets done about it same old same old.

 

You've obviously no been to my work. 

[wellon]

13 hours ago, wellgirl said:

I think Kettlewell gets a disproportionate amount of stick than some other managers - and I think people should be able to express support for him - if they want to. It really should not be that polarised. I've seen people on social media calling him Kettlewell bell end. Get out of my club. Etc 

And I don't go to games to boo people either - I get why fans are upset but I think some fans have a weird hatred of him for no reason 

I never booed Alexander. I never booed Hammell even though I thought it was the wrong appointment. And I won't be booing Kettlewell either 

And you know what. I think some people like making digs at people who like Kettlewell - people shouldn't be ridiculed because they support him 

I like him - other people don't. And that should be enough. I'm not going to be called as someone who does not care about their club just because I don't want him sacked 

 

I think the majority on here are fairly measured , even if they don't rate him.

There's still one or two on here who can't help getting personal and another few who would but seem yo have disappeared...personally don't miss them , it helps if you can debate different opinions without the posts that are just on to stir things up.

Things are never black and white especially in Scottish football.

Anyway coyw.

[0Neils40yarder]

12 hours ago, wellgirl said:

You don't. But some people act like they do. I've seen it all over social media. The name calling - the demands that he gets out of our club. Completely pathetic in my view. I actually don't know why anyone would come to this club given the abuse thats dished out to managers when some fans think it's time for the manager to go. 

I'm not talking about the booing. I'm talking about the name calling on social media - I get why he doesn't look at it 

They come to our club because they have bills to pay...and like it or not, I'd imagine every club has similar reactions from fans who are enduring some utterly miserable performances 

[santheman]

6 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

They come to our club because they have bills to pay...and like it or not, I'd imagine every club has similar reactions from fans who are enduring some utterly miserable performances 

A bit off tangent but in a similar vein, did St Johnstone fans not hold a demonstration outside the main stand at their last home game (although that might have been against the board and not the manager).

Hearts held a similar demonstration I'm sure as well as the recent walk out by the Rangers mob.

If fans aren't moaning about what's happening on the field then they're moaning about what's happening off it.

 

[David]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

A bit off tangent but in a similar vein, did St Johnstone fans not hold a demonstration outside the main stand at their last home game (although that might have been against the board and not the manager).

Hearts held a similar demonstration I'm sure as well as the recent walk out by the Rangers mob.

If fans aren't moaning about what's happening on the field then they're moaning about what's happening off it.

To be fair, I’m not convinced St Johnstone or Hearts supporters would be staging those protests if their team were sitting fifth in the table with a cup semi-final under their belts.

I fully appreciate the frustrations about performances—truth be told, we’ve not been anywhere near good enough. Most fans are being reasonable in their criticism, but there are a few speaking as if we’re rock bottom of the league and nine points adrift.

[texanwellfan]

3 minutes ago, David said:

To be fair, I’m not convinced St Johnstone or Hearts supporters would be staging those protests if their team were sitting fifth in the table with a cup semi-final under their belts.

I fully appreciate the frustrations about performances—truth be told, we’ve not been anywhere near good enough. Most fans are being reasonable in their criticism, but there are a few speaking as if we’re rock bottom of the league and nine points adrift.

Fair point but I think most fans are not so much concerned about our position or what we have achieved but rather they are looking at the rest of the season ahead and are rightly worried about where we are going to end up. We need the club/manager to be proactive and change things for the better now. Don’t wait till we are deep in trouble and then make changes. Those changes could be tactics, attitude, formation, team selection or whatever. SK is the guy getting paid to figure out the best changes. 

[Kmcalpin]

11 minutes ago, David said:

I fully appreciate the frustrations about performances—truth be told, we’ve not been anywhere near good enough. Most fans are being reasonable in their criticism, but there are a few speaking as if we’re rock bottom of the league and nine points adrift.

Views probably conform to a normal distribution curve. There are a few who will back him come what may and a few who have never liked him. The vast majority will be somewhere in between. 

[texanwellfan]

I’m not saying his task is easy at the moment when u r missing about 7 starters but we are capable of much better performances with the group of players currently at his disposal  he has to manage us through this period till we can get back to full strength although full strength will not include McGinn for this season 

Ox, McGinn, Gordon, Miller, Seddon, Paton,  Stam

[Clackscat]

I've been critical of our fans for many years, but in the case of SK, I think barring the usual inarticulate numpties on fb and twitter,  by and large those on here and P&B have been pretty measured in responses during last years bad run and this most recent situation.

I do think though that Saturday's reaction has been on the cards for a wee while but I also think SK has also become a bit of a lightning rod for what has been an abysmal 6 years or so since Robbo held his hands up then GA sucked the life out the place, and Hammell's ill fated tenure. Apart from the Spittal/Bair purple patch, there has been no excitement in watching our team for a long time.

I like SK, and he has a lot of credit in the bank for getting us clear of relegation, keeping calm, keeping the dressing room, and guiding us clear of trouble the following year. The support deserves credit also for by and large sticking with him during that spell.

However a lot of goodwill was used up, and the signs are there that he is not responding well to the difficulties this season, the well documented injury situation, his pressers have been more downbeat, criticism of players/team more regular, a passive inflexible tactical set up, poor haphazard recruitment, and the constant yellow/red cards is doing no one any favours, but indication that he is feeling the heat.

He must at the moment feel the world is against him and Saturday's (justified btw) fan reaction will have cut deep.

The rumours of dressing room issues add  to the problems he faces. He needs help and I find myself wondering what his assistant and our 'army' of coaches are bringing to the table.

I hope for his sake and ours he can turn this round, but it would need such a change in approach that in my heart of hearts I can't see it.

When you lose the support its only a matter of time, and seeing  negative comments from fair minded folks previously supportive on here and Pie&B says to me he needs to arrest this slide starting Saturday or rightly or wrongly things will become toxic at matches benefitting none of us.

[wellfan]

21 minutes ago, Clackscat said:

He needs help and I find myself wondering what his assistant and our 'army' of coaches are bringing to the table.

History has shown that, for the most part, Kettlewell is the architect of his own downfall.

The saying "If a man can't help himself, no one will" comes to mind here. 

[Wellfan91]

Manager coming under a lot of unfair criticism in my opinion. 

Yes we aren't a great watch, but who would be with our budget and injury list? I'd also like to hear who the "Kettlewell out" campaigners would take in place of him because in my opinion there's nobody out there who would take the job and do better for what we are able to pay and give as a transfer budget. The bottom line is without investment we are being left behind by other clubs in the premier league and we are contrary to what others think are doing well competing with sides who are spending a shed load more money on us per month - that's testament to the manager and his staff. 

Those criticising his decisions on Saturday clearly fail to see that at HT when he brought O'Donnell and Sparrow on we went to a back 4 and pushed Kaleta into midfield, so for anyone to say he was still playing 5 defenders is baffling. Also, those critisising the substitution of Sam Nicholson who was indeed our best player on the park, need to realise he got kicked u and down by St Johnstone and has only actually played about 40 mins of football all season so was never lasting the full 90 mins plus extra time had we managed it.

I agree Kettlewell's stuborness of continuously setting us up from the start to not lose and then we lose is frustrating and will probably be detrimental to his job in future, the same stubborness his predecessors also encountered but he certainly hasn;t lost the dressing room like Hammell and Alexander did so we should rally round him and try and get the team back to winning ways.

As a side note, who would people realistically want in to replace him? I hear the same names all the time from the stands, Yogi Hughes, Steven Naismith, Liam Fox, Tam Courts, Rhys McCabe - sorry none of them will do a better job than Kettlewell in my opinion. 

[wellgirl]

1 minute ago, Wellfan91 said:

Manager coming under a lot of unfair criticism in my opinion. 

Yes we aren't a great watch, but who would be with our budget and injury list? I'd also like to hear who the "Kettlewell out" campaigners would take in place of him because in my opinion there's nobody out there who would take the job and do better for what we are able to pay and give as a transfer budget. The bottom line is without investment we are being left behind by other clubs in the premier league and we are contrary to what others think are doing well competing with sides who are spending a shed load more money on us per month - that's testament to the manager and his staff. 

Those criticising his decisions on Saturday clearly fail to see that at HT when he brought O'Donnell and Sparrow on we went to a back 4 and pushed Kaleta into midfield, so for anyone to say he was still playing 5 defenders is baffling. Also, those critisising the substitution of Sam Nicholson who was indeed our best player on the park, need to realise he got kicked u and down by St Johnstone and has only actually played about 40 mins of football all season so was never lasting the full 90 mins plus extra time had we managed it.

I agree Kettlewell's stuborness of continuously setting us up from the start to not lose and then we lose is frustrating and will probably be detrimental to his job in future, the same stubborness his predecessors also encountered but he certainly hasn;t lost the dressing room like Hammell and Alexander did so we should rally round him and try and get the team back to winning ways.

As a side note, who would people realistically want in to replace him? I hear the same names all the time from the stands, Yogi Hughes, Steven Naismith, Liam Fox, Tam Courts, Rhys McCabe - sorry none of them will do a better job than Kettlewell in my opinion. 

You missed Neil Lennon Great post. 

[Spit_It_Out]

We have enough fit players the now to change the formation a bit and have a go from the off if he at least tried that and we lost I don't think folk we be that bothered tbh.

I just don't get what Kettlewell has seen to suggest to continue this way it doesn't make sense we are not playing to the abilities of the players we have left that's fit.

That left wing right now is so weak any team with any one with pace that can play down the left will murder us.

 

[David]

1 hour ago, texanwellfan said:

Fair point but I think most fans are not so much concerned about our position or what we have achieved but rather they are looking at the rest of the season ahead and are rightly worried about where we are going to end up. We need the club/manager to be proactive and change things for the better now. Don’t wait till we are deep in trouble and then make changes. Those changes could be tactics, attitude, formation, team selection or whatever. SK is the guy getting paid to figure out the best changes. 

Absolutely, he’s the one responsible for securing the wins we need to get things back on track. No debate about that.

At the moment, I’m relatively calm about the situation. If we were at full strength, with our best XI on the pitch, and still performing poorly, then I’d be seriously concerned. But I think things will balance out as players begin to return to the squad.

What I will say is that before Miller, Oxborough, Stama, and McGinn (yet again) picked up injuries, I genuinely thought we had a chance of pushing for a top-six finish. Given the extent of the injuries we’ve sustained and the time these players are expected to be sidelined, I reckon we’re more likely to finish around 7th or 8th.

Not ideal, but it’s far from disastrous.

[wellfan]

14 minutes ago, Wellfan91 said:

Yes we aren't a great watch, but who would be with our budget and injury list?

Kettlewell has been given the budget to run a 28 man first team squad this season, not including those out on loan, so I would suggest that the budget argument can be dismissed as not being a limiting factor this season. Also, there are many injuries, but he still has 19 first team players available to work with. If he can't get a tune out of them, then he's in the wrong job. 

14 minutes ago, Wellfan91 said:

The bottom line is without investment we are being left behind by other clubs in the premier league and we are contrary to what others think are doing well competing with sides who are spending a shed load more money on us per month

I did wonder how long it would take for someone to trot out the 'without investment' line. You've also managed to completely contradict yourself in what you've said here. That is, are we being left behind or are we doing well competing with other more financially liberal clubs? It can't be both. 

19 minutes ago, Wellfan91 said:

I agree Kettlewell's stuborness of continuously setting us up from the start to not lose and then we lose is frustrating and will probably be detrimental to his job in future, the same stubborness his predecessors also encountered but he certainly hasn;t lost the dressing room like Hammell and Alexander did so we should rally round him and try and get the team back to winning ways.

The body language of some of the players at the weekend, as well as some of the subsequent rumours about disharmony, would suggest that he's well on the way to losing the dressing room. I think the tipping point has likely already been reached. On the rallying round point; what do you think that massive away support at the weekend was?! We're witnessing the most stubborn of busted flushes take himself and the team down with him. 

23 minutes ago, Wellfan91 said:

As a side note, who would people realistically want in to replace him?

Is hoping for someone with at least some semblance of tactical nous too much to ask for? Who that is is up to the current Board to seek out.

[Wellfan91]

17 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Kettlewell has been given the budget to run a 28 man first team squad this season, not including those out on loan, so I would suggest that the budget argument can be dismissed as not being a limiting factor this season. Also, there are many injuries, but he still has 19 first team players available to work with. If he can't get a tune out of them, then he's in the wrong job. 

I did wonder how long it would take for someone to trot out the 'without investment' line. You've also managed to completely contradict yourself in what you've said here. That is, are we being left behind or are we doing well competing with other more financially liberal clubs? It can't be both. 

The body language of some of the players at the weekend, as well as some of the subsequent rumours about disharmony, would suggest that he's well on the way to losing the dressing room. I think the tipping point has likely already been reached. On the rallying round point; what do you think that massive away support at the weekend was?! We're witnessing the most stubborn of busted flushes take himself and the team down with him. 

Is hoping for someone with at least some semblance of tactical nous too much to ask for? Who that is is up to the current Board to seek out.

He might have been given the budget to run a 28 man squad but let's face the facts, Motherwell aren't going to be ever be in a position to sign 28 players worthy of being first team regulars and standouts - he has assembled a squad of maybe 15/16 who I think are good enough to play every week however most of them are injured - purely bad luck, not because of the manager.

Not contradicting myself, I'm stating a fact that without investment we are getting left behind off and on the pitch and we are punching above our weight by being ahead of teams spending more money than us, because the manager is doing a decent job with what he has at his disposal. 

As you say, rumours of disharmony, nothing confirmed on that front and don't expect it to be - let's face it on Saturday and a few recent games how many times have you sat there and watched Casey punt the ball high into the air only to come straight back to us, or thunder a 5yd pass off his teammates chest giving him no chance, his distribution is terrible so if rumours are true and Kettlewell dug him up for it at HT on Saturday then well done SK, if Casey can't accept criticism amidst rumours of him going to Hearts then let him go, nobody is bigger than the club.  

Be careful what you wish for is all I will say on that - Everyone wanted Simo in, with the exception of Saturday his team have been rotten and are likely to be playing Championship football next season.

[mfc88]

Has SK done good things with us? Yes.

Is SK going to get us relegated anytime soon? Probably not.

Is he the man to take the club forward, next season and beyond? Not for me. Our performance in most away games this season and also (the one that hurts the most) the semi final is basically the blueprint of why not for me. Set up to contain/ not lose and surrendering 65+% possession each game, regardless of opponent. Feels we are simply making up the numbers i.e. doing enough but with very little to shout about. Compare the SF this season to the two SFs and even cup final performances in 17/18 - they are world's apart.

I think most would agree on the first 2 points. I'd be interested to hear why he is the man to take the club forward? And what can we achieve with SK in charge?

Its all good discussion btw ✌️

[Happy Dosser]

2 hours ago, Clackscat said:

I've been critical of our fans for many years, but in the case of SK, I think barring the usual inarticulate numpties on fb and twitter,  by and large those on here and P&B have been pretty measured in responses during last years bad run and this most recent situation.

I do think though that Saturday's reaction has been on the cards for a wee while but I also think SK has also become a bit of a lightning rod for what has been an abysmal 6 years or so since Robbo held his hands up then GA sucked the life out the place, and Hammell's ill fated tenure. Apart from the Spittal/Bair purple patch, there has been no excitement in watching our team for a long time.

I like SK, and he has a lot of credit in the bank for getting us clear of relegation, keeping calm, keeping the dressing room, and guiding us clear of trouble the following year. The support deserves credit also for by and large sticking with him during that spell.

However a lot of goodwill was used up, and the signs are there that he is not responding well to the difficulties this season, the well documented injury situation, his pressers have been more downbeat, criticism of players/team more regular, a passive inflexible tactical set up, poor haphazard recruitment, and the constant yellow/red cards is doing no one any favours, but indication that he is feeling the heat.

He must at the moment feel the world is against him and Saturday's (justified btw) fan reaction will have cut deep.

The rumours of dressing room issues add  to the problems he faces. He needs help and I find myself wondering what his assistant and our 'army' of coaches are bringing to the table.

I hope for his sake and ours he can turn this round, but it would need such a change in approach that in my heart of hearts I can't see it.

When you lose the support its only a matter of time, and seeing  negative comments from fair minded folks previously supportive on here and Pie&B says to me he needs to arrest this slide starting Saturday or rightly or wrongly things will become toxic at matches benefitting none of us.

A balanced assessment which pretty much sums up my feelings at the moment.

If SK can learn from this low point and show an ability to change then he can survive. If he  stubbornly sticks to a no Plan B mentality then the next few months will be difficult, and unsustainable if he has truly lost the support and the dressing-room. A team with no Plan B is very easy to play against, as Mr Postecoglu is discovering at the moment.

[joewarkfanclub]

1 minute ago, Happy Dosser said:

A balanced assessment which pretty much sums up my feelings at the moment.

If SK can learn from this low point and show an ability to change then he can survive. If he  stubbornly sticks to a no Plan B mentality then the next few months will be difficult, and unsustainable if he has truly lost the support and the dressing-room. A team with no Plan B is very easy to play against, as Mr Postecoglu is discovering at the moment.

Exactly this.

Simo knew exactly how we were going to play on Saturday, regardless of the personnel and he set his team up accordingly with a high press, knowing our 3 x CBs wouldnt be able to cope with it and would end up hoofing it long.

SK has shown that he is willing and the players are capable of changing things up later in games. He needs to change what we are doing from the start and pose teams different questions.

We are currently less than the sum of our parts. He needs to find a way to build a better collective.

 

[wellfan]

3 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

He needs to change what we are doing from the start and pose teams different questions.

I think that him drastically changing his starting formation would be tantamount to him admitting he’s been getting it wrong for a while, and I just don’t think he’s got that in him. He has shown, with Bair for example, that he’s got an attitude of needing to be proven right in his decision making. It’s something he constantly reminds us of as he publicly ‘hangs his hat’ on things. However, if he goes 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 at the weekend, I’ll eat my hat. 

[smiddy]

1 hour ago, Wellfan91 said:

He might have been given the budget to run a 28 man squad but let's face the facts, Motherwell aren't going to be ever be in a position to sign 28 players worthy of being first team regulars and standouts - he has assembled a squad of maybe 15/16 who I think are good enough to play every week however most of them are injured - purely bad luck, not because of the manager.

Not contradicting myself, I'm stating a fact that without investment we are getting left behind off and on the pitch and we are punching above our weight by being ahead of teams spending more money than us, because the manager is doing a decent job with what he has at his disposal. 

As you say, rumours of disharmony, nothing confirmed on that front and don't expect it to be - let's face it on Saturday and a few recent games how many times have you sat there and watched Casey punt the ball high into the air only to come straight back to us, or thunder a 5yd pass off his teammates chest giving him no chance, his distribution is terrible so if rumours are true and Kettlewell dug him up for it at HT on Saturday then well done SK, if Casey can't accept criticism amidst rumours of him going to Hearts then let him go, nobody is bigger than the club.  

Be careful what you wish for is all I will say on that - Everyone wanted Simo in, with the exception of Saturday his team have been rotten and are likely to be playing Championship football next season.

What if kettlewell didnt dig him up bout passing etc,

but casey asked kettlewell bout our stupid set up that wasnt working n SK didnt like it  ( cause heez a stubborn barsteward ) 

just askin for ma pal Dan 

, 

[star sail]

1 hour ago, mfc88 said:

 

Its all good discussion btw ✌️

It's not though. What we often forget is that there is a human being on the other end of this discussion, who is working really hard for the club and who has saved us from relegation in the last two seasons.

This thread was started very early in SK's tenure and has trundled on throughout his time at the helm. We are talking about a guy who has a career to build, a family to feed and who is an honest hard worker professional who has done well for this club. 

The appetite to sack managers is generally distasteful and it is really easy to be smart ( and often anonymous) on a football forum. I am not referencing you in this mfc88, just quoting your last sentence.

Sacking manager threads should surface in times when a team is in turmoil. This team is not in turmoil and yet there are fans hell bent on creating instability and a false sense of turmoil. It seems that this is now as much a part of the entertainment as the football itself. 

I think SK deserves a bit more respect. He has earned it.