Stuart Kettlewell discussion thread

[texanwellfan]

Perhaps once we get the majority of the full squad back things may get better. Having said that, I think he could have done a lot better with what he has available currently. 

[wellgirl]

12 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

Perhaps once we get the majority of the full squad back things may get better. Having said that, I think he could have done a lot better with what he has available currently. 

Also agree. 

[wellgirl]

2 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

We have over 4000 season ticket holders and obviously say probably about 50 regular posters on here but I am struggling to find anyone still backing Kettlewell.   All the ones that have defended him including myself have now lost faith and that interview was just bizarre considering in middle of January 1700 fans paid a lot of money to watch that performance yet we don't have a clue when it comes to management.

If he had been at another club he would have been binned last year but they stood by him and yes he turned it round but there has been no improvement and a style of football that makes Alexander look like Rinus Michels ( one for the oldies).

He is employed and no one wants to see anyone out of work but he will be fine, he will get another gig and loads of media work though sportscene might have to become a 3 hour show!!.

Again if he can turn it round I will be on here apologising but I think we are beyond that stage.

COYW

The thing is though - we are small in numbers here - and what people post might be representative of the wider fan base - but it might not. 

I get that the team were booed at the last two home games and I also get that it's a very tight league - but we aren't the only team on a poor run right now. Aberdeen are. St Mirren are. Killie are. 

I also completely get every single person's reservations about him - even if my views don't particularly align with theirs. If we do sack him now another manager is going to have to get results from the same group of players -and that obviously can happen as we saw when he took over from Hammell 

The next few games will obviously dictate what happens off the park 

[smiddy]

20 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

Perhaps once we get the majority of the full squad back things may get better. Having said that, I think he could have done a lot better with what he has available currently. 

What he has avaiable currantly texan 

are on his watch 

[wunderwell]

3 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

The thing is though - we are small in numbers here - and what people post might be representative of the wider fan base - but it might not. 

I get that the team were booed at the last two home games and I also get that it's a very tight league - but we aren't the only team on a poor run right now. Aberdeen are. St Mirren are. Killie are. 

I also completely get every single person's reservations about him - even if my views don't particularly align with theirs. If we do sack him now another manager is going to have to get results from the same group of players -and that obviously can happen as we saw when he took over from Hammell 

The next few games will obviously dictate what happens off the park 

More than happy that there are contrasting views.

For me it's akin to the fateful last games of Robinson and the time is right for a change.

[fizoxy]

19 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

Who is authorising this bloated squad? Are there others in the mix regarding our choice of players?
Do you feel we need fresh blood on recruitment?

The answer to the first question is pretty easy, we've had a crazy number of injuries this season, and we need a matchday squad. If we didn't bring in replacements for the injured players, this place would be in meltdown. Thankfully we have a lot of players out of contract and a large number of loans, so the bloat will be gone soon enough. Also, piss would boil if we just brought in a couple in January. How that window is fetishized is a problem in itself. 

As with all clubs, our recruitment has been hit or miss. I'd love to see how we are (objectively) compared to other teams at our level when it comes to that. We tend to just see the good players the other teams sign and focus on our own shite.

We got money for KVV, Bair, Sol, woolery, got a solid 2 years out of spittal, somehow got biereth for 6 months, and have generally done well innthe loan market, particularly for full backs. There's a fair amount of dross there, but I'm not sure if that's more than normal. Also, when you're signing replacements for replacements, you're naturally not getting the best.

Our first choice lineup looks pretty good, and it's a shame we will never see it. Add AP, Miller, Seddon, and McGinn to this team and most of us would be pretty happy. 

I will say, our midfield recruitment this season was piss poor, relying on multiple players with a poor injury history, another who still had another six months out injured to go, and an 18 year old we were sure to be selling. 

I'm more concerned about the injuries, but even there, there has been a number of contact injuries from games, which are hard to prevent. Signing known injured players and accumulating injuries from training is more of a problem. 

[fizoxy]

23 hours ago, prideoflanarkshire said:

Who would make the decision to sack him? The board or the WS?

The board, who have WS representatives on it. 

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, wunderwell said:

So as 2023/2024 went along me and you had a bit of a ding dong about Kettlewell.
In the short term in my opinion I was correct by backing him, things did turn around and things ended up ok (no more no less)
I will give you credit though for spotting a larger long term viewpoint about Kettlewell that I was blind too and admit that you were correct. I tend to back longer term so I will concede my friend that you were correct overall!!!
Don't ask me to repeat!!!

My question for you is this though are the flaws larger than Kettlewell?
Who is authorising this bloated squad? Are there others in the mix regarding our choice of players?
Do you feel we need fresh blood on recruitment?

On your first point, there’s no need to concede right or wrong. We both had our opinions at that time and that’s that, but fair play regardless. Things have moved on. 

On your questions, I would say that the recruitment issues are as big a problem as the manager, and I’ve said my piece elsewhere on Daws being a big part of the problem.

In short, I don’t really think we have any sort of logical recruitment strategy. It’s all a bit scattergun. Lots of gambles. Plucking players from here, there, and everywhere. And with a heavy reliance on loans to get us out of messes, which sees us continually having to rebuild once they leave. It also appears that Kettlewell is perhaps being given a little more rope than other managers with similar sized budgets would get. I.e. he knows he’ll always get away with it and be bailed out  

However, we do have a new Board in place, who are different to those in place during the 2023/24 saga, although they have just emptied the clubs pockets for Kettlewell, so who knows what’s next on their agenda.

My feeling is we need to stop promoting from within, unless it’s well-justified, and try to adopt a longer term strategy, which includes developing and integrating more of the young boys instead of constantly wasting money on developing other teams’ young players through our over reliance on loans. All of this will require a strategic overhaul of the management, coaching, recruitment, and academy departments, at least. Because at the moment, it’s all just firefighting and hoping that some of the expensive shit thrown at the wall sticks every year.

We’re a fan owned club and should demand something better for the present and future of our club. 

[wellgirl]

10 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

More than happy that there are contrasting views.

For me it's akin to the fateful last games of Robinson and the time is right for a change.

I have family who are Motherwell fans. One isn't particularly a Kettlewell fan but isn't banging the drum for him to go. We had a chat today and he said the next few games will be important - of course they will. Like someone said the other week on here - maybe fans who post online on forums are more invested than those who don't post. It's changed times really - back in the day when I was supporting Motherwell there was no Internet. You watched the game and you went home - maybe fans made their points in different ways 

I think it's more short term now all over the piece - like there were a lot of calls for Goodwin to get out of Dundee Utd but they are doing well now - so obviously it's very results driven (no shit sherlock) 

Potentially managers now have about two or three years to solidify their clubs position and if they aren't cutting it then that's that 

[wellgirl]

36 minutes ago, fizoxy said:

The answer to the first question is pretty easy, we've had a crazy number of injuries this season, and we need a matchday squad. If we didn't bring in replacements for the injured players, this place would be in meltdown. Thankfully we have a lot of players out of contract and a large number of loans, so the bloat will be gone soon enough. Also, piss would boil if we just brought in a couple in January. How that window is fetishized is a problem in itself. 

As with all clubs, our recruitment has been hit or miss. I'd love to see how we are (objectively) compared to other teams at our level when it comes to that. We tend to just see the good players the other teams sign and focus on our own shite.

We got money for KVV, Bair, Sol, woolery, got a solid 2 years out of spittal, somehow got biereth for 6 months, and have generally done well innthe loan market, particularly for full backs. There's a fair amount of dross there, but I'm not sure if that's more than normal. Also, when you're signing replacements for replacements, you're naturally not getting the best.

Our first choice lineup looks pretty good, and it's a shame we will never see it. Add AP, Miller, Seddon, and McGinn to this team and most of us would be pretty happy. 

I will say, our midfield recruitment this season was piss poor, relying on multiple players with a poor injury history, another who still had another six months out injured to go, and an 18 year old we were sure to be selling. 

I'm more concerned about the injuries, but even there, there has been a number of contact injuries from games, which are hard to prevent. Signing known injured players and accumulating injuries from training is more of a problem. 

You make very good points. I think we miss Spittal a lot. I think he was very underrated and it's not always easy just to find a like for like player. I know some people don't rate Slattery but I think Spittal and Slattery had a very good partnership - also agree that we can't build the midfield around Miller no matter how good he is 

[star sail]

2 hours ago, wunderwell said:

So as 2023/2024 went along me and you had a bit of a ding dong about Kettlewell.
In the short term in my opinion I was correct by backing him, things did turn around and things ended up ok (no more no less)
I will give you credit though for spotting a larger long term viewpoint about Kettlewell that I was blind too and admit that you were correct. I tend to back longer term so I will concede my friend that you were correct overall!!!
Don't ask me to repeat!!!

My question for you is this though are the flaws larger than Kettlewell?
Who is authorising this bloated squad? Are there others in the mix regarding our choice of players?
Do you feel we need fresh blood on recruitment?

I think you are being hard on yourself here and giving Wellfan and those who share his views too much credit.

On not sacking Kettlewell after the winless run,you were right, he was wrong. History has now proven this to be true. The proof being that the fortunes turned around last season and we did not get relegated. Like it or not that is a significant marker of success for a team like Motherwell.

We have not had a manager leave Motherwell on his own terms since Craig Brown in 2010. In the 15 years since, every manager has eventually been sacked and on average lasts about 2 years. 

It is easy to back the sack the manager horse. It is the form horse by some considerate distance and these stats will be mirrored in teams up and down the SPL. 

Kettlewell is approaching two years in charge now. Probability alone tells us his time is nearly up. Being a football manager in this division is very difficult and they have a very short sell buy date.

It does not take a visionary to predict that a manager will be sacked. Hang in there with that message and 9 times out of 10 you will be proven correct often sooner rather than later.

[wellgirl]

5 minutes ago, star sail said:

I think you are being hard on yourself here and giving Wellfan and those who share his views too much credit.

On not sacking Kettlewell after the winless run,you were right, he was wrong. History has now proven this to be true. The proof being that the fortunes turned around last season and we did not get relegated. Like it or not that is a significant marker of success for a team like Motherwell.

We have not had a manager leave Motherwell on his own terms since Craig Brown in 2010. In the 15 years since, every manager has eventually been sacked and on average lasts about 2 years. 

It is easy to back the sack the manager horse. It is the form horse by some considerate distance and these stats will be mirrored in teams up and down the SPL. 

Kettlewell is approaching two years in charge now. Probability alone tells us his time is nearly up. Being a football manager in this division is very difficult and they have a very short sell buy date.

It does not take a visionary to predict that a manager will be sacked. Hang in there with that message and 9 times out of 10 you will be proven correct often sooner rather than later.

Great balanced post 

[wellfan]

2 hours ago, star sail said:

The proof being that the fortunes turned around last season and we did not get relegated. Like it or not that is a significant marker of success for a team like Motherwell.

A significant marker for success? I thought that not getting relegated was the absolute minimum aim of the job each season, particularly given that we’ve now been in the top flight for 4 decades. I’d suggest that a significant marker for success for a manager would be winning a domestic cup and/or European qualification. To suggest otherwise really is a race to the bottom in terms of defining significant achievements. 

[star sail]

5 hours ago, wellfan said:

A significant marker for success? I thought that not getting relegated was the absolute minimum aim of the job each season, particularly given that we’ve now been in the top flight for 4 decades. I’d suggest that a significant marker for success for a manager would be winning a domestic cup and/or European qualification. To suggest otherwise really is a race to the bottom in terms of defining significant achievements. 

Celtic, Aberdeen and Motherwell are the only three teams to have maintained top division status over the last 40 years.

That is a significant achievement. 

[wellfan]

12 minutes ago, star sail said:

Celtic, Aberdeen and Motherwell are the only three teams to have maintained top division status over the last 40 years.

That is a significant achievement. 

If a Motherwell manager is only ever tasked with achieving top flight status and nothing else, and is continually rewarded a new contract for delivering that ‘significant achievement’, then we will see no progress as a club in terms of any other goals. It’s an approach that encourages and legitimises a race to stagnation, at all costs, and asks nothing more of the manager and his squad. But if that’s your cup of tea, so be it. 

[Spiderpig]

12 minutes ago, wellfan said:

If a Motherwell manager is only ever tasked with achieving top flight status and nothing else, and is continually rewarded a new contract for delivering that ‘significant achievement’, then we will see no progress as a club in terms of any other goals. It’s an approach that encourages and legitimises a race to stagnation, at all costs, and asks nothing more of the manager and his squad. But if that’s your cup of tea, so be it. 

What are your other goals then, where do you see Motherwell aiming for, is nearly 40 years in the top division, numerous European qualifications, several cup finals and 1 trophy to our name not enough for a club of our size?

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

What are your other goals then, where do you see Motherwell aiming for, is nearly 40 years in the top division, numerous European qualifications, several cup finals and 1 trophy to our name not enough for a club of our size?

What you describe are good achievements and I’ve outlined previously what I see as realistic expectations for Motherwell. My point is that do you truly see us achieving anything more than 10th place and a blown budget under Kettlewell every season? The League Cup semi was a red herring as we were shite and it was a pretty easy run to it. He’s a busted flush and truly incapable of learning and developing. It’s a case of continual stagnation and crisis management under him. 

[Kmcalpin]

An article in the Herald this morning which is worth reading.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/24886398.motherwell-fans-turning-stuart-kettlewell/

The best media summing up I've come across was by Craggs on the BBC on Saturday. Basically our league position & semi final appearance are at odds with our stats, fan unrest and current bad run. This is because we got a bit lucky earlier but now teams have worked us out and we have been found out.  

 

[wellon]

11 hours ago, smiddy said:

What he has avaiable currantly texan 

are on his watch 

Maybe it should be a new thread but if everyone was available,  what would be strongest team we could field? 

We vould compare that to what's on field at minute? I don't think strongest 11 have been on show at any time this season.

I know it's hard with some playrrss just on board but would be interesting..

[wellon]

16 minutes ago, wellfan said:

What you describe are good achievements and I’ve outlined previously what I see as realistic expectations for Motherwell. My point is that do you truly see us achieving anything more than 10th place and a blown budget under Kettlewell every season? The League Cup semi was a red herring as we were shite and it was a pretty easy run to it. He’s a busted flush and truly incapable of learning and developing. It’s a case of continual stagnation and crisis management under him. 

There's also a few managers who haven't achieved that, including tommy mac, only league reconstruction saved us...he took a while to get going but turned out OK

Unfortunately it's a totally different game and teams can bring in players from all over world,  I doubt we will see a cup win again unless old firm leave Scotland. 

[wellgirl]

29 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

An article in the Herald this morning which is worth reading.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/24886398.motherwell-fans-turning-stuart-kettlewell/

The best media summing up I've come across was by Craggs on the BBC on Saturday. Basically our league position & semi final appearance are at odds with our stats, fan unrest and current bad run. This is because we got a bit lucky earlier but now teams have worked us out and we have been found out.  

 

Behind a paywall if you don't subscribe - could someone copy and paste it? 

[FirParkCornerExile]

15 hours ago, Throughthelaces said:

I'd like to think that he gets the county game and if were me I'd be telling him anything less than a win against County and Dundee and he's out the door.

No we shouldn't , we may consider that option but I certainly wouldn't be telling him its two wins or hes out. The pressure on us is big enough without adding fuel to the Fire before the games . SK will know hes under scrutiny.

[FirParkCornerExile]

53 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

An article in the Herald this morning which is worth reading.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/24886398.motherwell-fans-turning-stuart-kettlewell/

The best media summing up I've come across was by Craggs on the BBC on Saturday. Basically our league position & semi final appearance are at odds with our stats, fan unrest and current bad run. This is because we got a bit lucky earlier but now teams have worked us out and we have been found out.  

 

Behind a paywall so cant read it but will no doubt a Jambo, as the sports writer is,  telling the folk who watch our utter shite week in week out we have no right to question SK. 

[Kmcalpin]

Why Motherwell fans are turning against Stuart Kettlewell

By Craig Fowler Columnist

I'm going to tell you about a Scottish football manager.

This man has been in charge of his current club for almost two years. He has a 40 per cent winning percentage from 92 games despite not managing one of the bigger clubs in the division. He currently has his team in the top half despite their best player being a teenager with less than 50 career top-flight games. And in each of the last two seasons he has been forced into selling his top goalscorer, having significantly improved each of those players' form, making the club over £2 million in the process.

I am, of course, referring to Motherwell manager Stuart Kettlewell. A man who, for all the successes I laid out above, is not a popular figure with a sizeable chunk of the Fir Park faithful.

Tensions increased last week when Kettlewell took aim at his critics in a pre-match press conference ahead of his side's trip to St Johnstone in the Scottish Premiership. "I’ll not be influenced by any noise or opinions from people that have never done the job and never dedicated their life to this game," he said.

That line lacks context in isolation. Within the overall body of what he told reporters on Thursday, it appears more respectful and comes across as an honest assessment of what most managers think. Any coach who alters his team and tactics at the whim of supporter sentiment is not going to last in the job very long, as the team would soon become an incoherent mess with the gameplan ripped up on an almost weekly basis. However, Kettlewell has been in the game long enough to know that any direct shot at supporters is going to be isolated in the media and hungrily feasted on, which is what happened. Even by social media standards, Motherwell fans were outraged by the comment and it further strained a relationship which wasn't exactly harmonious beforehand.

Other than Stephen Robinson, Kettlewell is Motherwell's most successful manager in over a decade. He inherited a mess of a squad heading for relegation when Stevie Hammell was sacked and quickly turned things around; he's kept their head above water despite being in charge of some average-looking squads; he rebounds from losing his best players and, as I'll reiterate again, they're in the top half of the league. This is despite a perplexing injury list that has had a Motherwell-supporting colleague of mine often wondering whether they host training on an active minefield. This injury list now includes Lennon Miller, a generational talent and the team's fulcrum. So why are some of the supporters so unhappy?

It all goes back to an aspect of the game by which all managers are judged: the style of play.

It is correct that the most important thing in football is winning matches. If you win games above expectation then you are going to be safe and secure in your job. However, the manner in which a team goes about trying to win those games still matters very much. That's because a manager who wins matches by playing a brand of football which supporters aren't happy with isn't going to accumulate much credit in the bank. So as soon as things start to go sour there is no grace period, the knives are immediately out, and that's what has happened at Motherwell recently following a sequence of just one victory in their last nine games.

Motherwell are, statistically speaking, the most passive team in the league. No Scottish Premiership team presses the opposition with less intensity, which would be more forgivable in the eyes of fans if the team weren't also happy to concede possession to opponents. With just a 39.2 per cent share of the ball across this season so far, no side holds on to it for less time than Kettlewell's men. They also hold the third worst Expected Goals (xG) tally and second highest Expected Goals Against (xGA) mark, suggesting that the success of this season has been built on a foundation of sand.

Putting that to the side, even if every single point accrued to this point has been deserved, for supporters it's been done without much joy. Even the one victory in the past nine, the 2-0 win over Aberdeen (*sarcastic slow clap*), fans went away from the stadium grumbling after a disheartening second-half performance against ten men. In the end, victory will always pacify, but there are rarely ever positives to take when it doesn't happen, which is why supporters were so furious with the exit to St Johnstone in the Scottish Cup. Motherwell went out with a whimper to an opponent who'd previously managed just two draws in nine games and have now beaten them in successive weekends.

There are also questions with regards to squad building. Thirty-five players have been signed by Kettlewell but there aren't many undoubted success stories, and there are still gaps in the squad. The Fir Park corps is bursting with forward players but only Apostolos Stamatelopoulos is truly adept at holding the ball up and playing with his back to goal. Without him in recent games due to injury they've struggled to make it stick. Fans are also sick of seeing a three-at-the-back variation which gets played regardless of who is fit and in form. Ewan Wilson has made the breakthrough this season at left wing-back and impressed earlier in the campaign, but his form has struggled recently as he's been asked to carry too much in a system that only really functions at its best when the wing-backs are flying.

So long as the Steelmen remain in the top half of the table then Kettlewell will remain in a job, regardless of what fans think of him. But you can basically throw a duvet sheet over the Premiership table from Motherwell in fifth to Kilmarnock in 11th. If the league position starts to reflect recent results then there aren't going to be many defenders left among the support when it comes time for the board to discuss the manager's position.

[Big Tosh]

With the talk of removing Kettlewell, which I am in agreement, my thoughts go to who would replace him?

I guess Frail would be the lowest cost option?  Might we plunder the Championship for Scott Brown, John McGlynn or Davie Martindale? Any other, possibly left, field options?