Stuart Kettlewell discussion thread

[wellon]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

What you describe are good achievements and I’ve outlined previously what I see as realistic expectations for Motherwell. My point is that do you truly see us achieving anything more than 10th place and a blown budget under Kettlewell every season? The League Cup semi was a red herring as we were shite and it was a pretty easy run to it. He’s a busted flush and truly incapable of learning and developing. It’s a case of continual stagnation and crisis management under him. 

You're kind of selective with your "praise", if we were " shite" , then we were less shite than all the other teams, you don't rate the guy  ..we get it....let's see if we do finish 10th before we assume that, especially if we can get players back.

[wellfan]

12 minutes ago, wellon said:

You're kind of selective with your "praise", if we were " shite" , then we were less shite than all the other teams, you don't rate the guy  ..we get it....let's see if we do finish 10th before we assume that, especially if we can get players back.

You’re right, I don’t rate Kettlewell, and haven’t done for 14 months, for multiple reasons.

What’s happening now, though, is many of his supporters and fence-sitters on this forum (and P&B) are coming to realise that the thrust of my year-long critique isn’t just a personal grudge. And it’s not just me who’s been critiquing him all this time.

Do we really need to wait to finish in 10th place with a squad of 30+ players for us to collectively and finally realise that Kettlewell just isn’t that good?! 

[FirParkCornerExile]

34 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Why Motherwell fans are turning against Stuart Kettlewell

By Craig Fowler Columnist

I'm going to tell you about a Scottish football manager.

This man has been in charge of his current club for almost two years. He has a 40 per cent winning percentage from 92 games despite not managing one of the bigger clubs in the division. He currently has his team in the top half despite their best player being a teenager with less than 50 career top-flight games. And in each of the last two seasons he has been forced into selling his top goalscorer, having significantly improved each of those players' form, making the club over £2 million in the process.

I am, of course, referring to Motherwell manager Stuart Kettlewell. A man who, for all the successes I laid out above, is not a popular figure with a sizeable chunk of the Fir Park faithful.

Tensions increased last week when Kettlewell took aim at his critics in a pre-match press conference ahead of his side's trip to St Johnstone in the Scottish Premiership. "I’ll not be influenced by any noise or opinions from people that have never done the job and never dedicated their life to this game," he said.

That line lacks context in isolation. Within the overall body of what he told reporters on Thursday, it appears more respectful and comes across as an honest assessment of what most managers think. Any coach who alters his team and tactics at the whim of supporter sentiment is not going to last in the job very long, as the team would soon become an incoherent mess with the gameplan ripped up on an almost weekly basis. However, Kettlewell has been in the game long enough to know that any direct shot at supporters is going to be isolated in the media and hungrily feasted on, which is what happened. Even by social media standards, Motherwell fans were outraged by the comment and it further strained a relationship which wasn't exactly harmonious beforehand.

Other than Stephen Robinson, Kettlewell is Motherwell's most successful manager in over a decade. He inherited a mess of a squad heading for relegation when Stevie Hammell was sacked and quickly turned things around; he's kept their head above water despite being in charge of some average-looking squads; he rebounds from losing his best players and, as I'll reiterate again, they're in the top half of the league. This is despite a perplexing injury list that has had a Motherwell-supporting colleague of mine often wondering whether they host training on an active minefield. This injury list now includes Lennon Miller, a generational talent and the team's fulcrum. So why are some of the supporters so unhappy?

It all goes back to an aspect of the game by which all managers are judged: the style of play.

It is correct that the most important thing in football is winning matches. If you win games above expectation then you are going to be safe and secure in your job. However, the manner in which a team goes about trying to win those games still matters very much. That's because a manager who wins matches by playing a brand of football which supporters aren't happy with isn't going to accumulate much credit in the bank. So as soon as things start to go sour there is no grace period, the knives are immediately out, and that's what has happened at Motherwell recently following a sequence of just one victory in their last nine games.

Motherwell are, statistically speaking, the most passive team in the league. No Scottish Premiership team presses the opposition with less intensity, which would be more forgivable in the eyes of fans if the team weren't also happy to concede possession to opponents. With just a 39.2 per cent share of the ball across this season so far, no side holds on to it for less time than Kettlewell's men. They also hold the third worst Expected Goals (xG) tally and second highest Expected Goals Against (xGA) mark, suggesting that the success of this season has been built on a foundation of sand.

Putting that to the side, even if every single point accrued to this point has been deserved, for supporters it's been done without much joy. Even the one victory in the past nine, the 2-0 win over Aberdeen (*sarcastic slow clap*), fans went away from the stadium grumbling after a disheartening second-half performance against ten men. In the end, victory will always pacify, but there are rarely ever positives to take when it doesn't happen, which is why supporters were so furious with the exit to St Johnstone in the Scottish Cup. Motherwell went out with a whimper to an opponent who'd previously managed just two draws in nine games and have now beaten them in successive weekends.

There are also questions with regards to squad building. Thirty-five players have been signed by Kettlewell but there aren't many undoubted success stories, and there are still gaps in the squad. The Fir Park corps is bursting with forward players but only Apostolos Stamatelopoulos is truly adept at holding the ball up and playing with his back to goal. Without him in recent games due to injury they've struggled to make it stick. Fans are also sick of seeing a three-at-the-back variation which gets played regardless of who is fit and in form. Ewan Wilson has made the breakthrough this season at left wing-back and impressed earlier in the campaign, but his form has struggled recently as he's been asked to carry too much in a system that only really functions at its best when the wing-backs are flying.

So long as the Steelmen remain in the top half of the table then Kettlewell will remain in a job, regardless of what fans think of him. But you can basically throw a duvet sheet over the Premiership table from Motherwell in fifth to Kilmarnock in 11th. If the league position starts to reflect recent results then there aren't going to be many defenders left among the support when it comes time for the board to discuss the manager's position.

A pretty good assessment. Basically you can play shite and fans will grudgingly accept it if there are wins. That disappears when results match the displays. SK has had the bonus of being allowed to run the biggest first team squad in a long time and most of those signing are questionable. 

 

Thanks for the post from the Herald.  

[wellon]

7 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

A pretty good assessment. Basically you can play shite and fans will grudgingly accept it if there are wins. That disappears when results match the displays. SK has had the bonus of being allowed to run the biggest first team squad in a long time and most of those signing are questionable. 

 

Thanks for the post from the Herald.  

There's a comment from a hearts fan to this article about getting rid of Robbie nelson,  it's been shown that it wasn't smartest move....all it does is lumber clubs with more debt paying off managers.

 

[wellon]

51 minutes ago, wellfan said:

You’re right, I don’t rate Kettlewell, and haven’t done for 14 months, for multiple reasons.

What’s happening now, though, is many of his supporters and fence-sitters on this forum (and P&B) are coming to realise that the thrust of my year-long critique isn’t just a personal grudge. And it’s not just me who’s been critiquing him all this time.

Do we really need to wait to finish in 10th place with a squad of 30+ players for us to collectively and finally realise that Kettlewell just isn’t that good?! 

I don't know if he's that good either, we would need to compare to a team with similar budget, injuries etc etc

We might finish 10th or worse, we might finish 4th , at the minute that's unlikely but I am prepared to give it till injuries clear up .

All this changing managers every 2 years does is cost us money. 

[wellfan]

9 minutes ago, wellon said:

All this changing managers every 2 years does is cost us money. 

You could say the same thing of continually funding a struggling manager.

[Clackscat]

2 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

An article in the Herald this morning which is worth reading.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/24886398.motherwell-fans-turning-stuart-kettlewell/

The best media summing up I've come across was by Craggs on the BBC on Saturday. Basically our league position & semi final appearance are at odds with our stats, fan unrest and current bad run. This is because we got a bit lucky earlier but now teams have worked us out and we have been found out.  

 

An article in the Herald worth reading is not a phrase you see often, but this one is bang on the money, thanks for posting

[mfc]

We will probably limp through to the end of the season and finish in the bottom 6 and that should be it for kettlewell,the thought of him staying on next season and having to oversee another big turn over of players in the summer would likely put me off renewing my season ticket.if the club are on the ball they should be looking at who's out there the now as the potential next manager.

[Kmcalpin]

51 minutes ago, wellon said:

We might finish 10th or worse, we might finish 4th , at the minute that's unlikely but I am prepared to give it till injuries clear up .

All this changing managers every 2 years does is cost us money. 

Yes  changing managers can be costly but so can inaction. If we don't change and lose say 2/3 league places that will be costly. If we're caught up in a relegation  dogfight that could be extremely costly. Relegation?

If we wait until injuries clear up  when will that be? McGinn out for the season; Robinson out until next season; Ox out for 2- 3 months, Seddon out for another 2 months. All that assumes we don't pick up any more injuries. We will not be able to field our strongest team this season.

[FirParkCornerExile]

1 hour ago, wellon said:

I don't know if he's that good either, we would need to compare to a team with similar budget, injuries etc etc

We might finish 10th or worse, we might finish 4th , at the minute that's unlikely but I am prepared to give it till injuries clear up .

All this changing managers every 2 years does is cost us money. 

 

Slight difference here is SK has 5 months left on his contract, hardly a crippling financial judgement to get rid of him for those that think that's what we should do. 

"All this changing managers every 2 years does is cost us money" it does but that is the nature of the beast. Few managers last longer than 3 seasons. Either through moving to bigger and better or getting pumped for being pish. 

[AllyMax]

31 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

 

Slight difference here is SK has 5 months left on his contract, hardly a crippling financial judgement to get rid of him for those that think that's what we should do. 

"All this changing managers every 2 years does is cost us money" it does but that is the nature of the beast. Few managers last longer than 3 seasons. Either through moving to bigger and better or getting pumped for being pish. 

Did I not read somewhere that he was on a 12 month rolling contract ? 

[wellgirl]

3 minutes ago, AllyMax said:

Did I not read somewhere that he was on a 12 month rolling contract ? 

I believe so. 

[AllyMax]

Just now, wellgirl said:

I believe so. 

Thought so, so he doesn't have 5 months left on his contract, he has a year.

[wellgirl]

5 minutes ago, AllyMax said:

Thought so, so he doesn't have 5 months left on his contract, he has a year.

That's right. 

[Spit_It_Out]

10 minutes ago, AllyMax said:

Thought so, so he doesn't have 5 months left on his contract, he has a year.

well we are truly fucked then.Pardon my French!

[wellfan]

Has anyone actually had it confirmed by the club that Kettlewell and Frail’s rolling contracts are 12 months (at all times) or season to season? The latter meaning they are only eligible for 4-5 more months of wages before the rolling period would reset for 2025/26.

[FirParkCornerExile]

21 minutes ago, AllyMax said:

Thought so, so he doesn't have 5 months left on his contract, he has a year.

Not necessarily. That's not how many rolling contracts in the UK work. Many run for 12 months from a specific date and in their case that was May 2024. Both sides have an option to continue or to end but must give three months notice before the 12 months expire i.e May 2025. If no such undertaking is exercised the contract automatically rolls on for another 12 months and we would then be on the hook for 12 months salary.. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

4 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Has anyone actually had it confirmed by the club that Kettlewell and Frail’s rolling contracts are 12 months (at all times) or season to season? The latter meaning they are only eligible  for 4-5 more months of wages before the rolling period would reset for 2025/26.

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2024/02/22/stuart-kettlewell-remains-at-club-until-may-2025/

[Spit_It_Out]

From the belly of the Google.

A rolling contract for a football manager is a contract that continues until one party decides to end it. This is different from a fixed-term contract, which ends automatically on a specific date. 

How does it work?

A rolling contract allows either party to decide not to renew the contract. 

There is no obligation to pay compensation if either party decides not to renew. 

The contract can be renewed by both parties agreeing to "roll it over". 

The contract can be terminated by either party giving notice. 

[wellfan]

7 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2024/02/22/stuart-kettlewell-remains-at-club-until-may-2025/

I’ve read this, but it doesn’t cover the technicalities I asked. Google AI states the following:

A rolling contract of employment for a football manager is a contract that continues until either party gives notice to end it. This type of contract is a type of fixed-term contract that automatically renews on a set date.

What is that set date? End of season? Or what? It can’t always just be 12 months from every date, or has that been stated somewhere? 

 

[dennyc]

4 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2024/02/22/stuart-kettlewell-remains-at-club-until-may-2025/

I think that is out of date. 12 Month Rolling Contract agreed August 2024. Whatever that means in reality I haven't a clue.

[wellgirl]

3 minutes ago, dennyc said:

I think that is out of date. 12 Month Rolling Contract agreed August 2024. Whatever that means in reality I haven't a clue.

Yeah - all the press articles say that he agreed to the new rolling contract on 31 August last year 

[wellfan]

2 minutes ago, dennyc said:

I think that is out of date. 12 Month Rolling Contract agreed August 2024. Whatever that means in reality I haven't a clue.

Agreed 31 August 2024:

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2024/08/31/stuart-kettlewell-and-stephen-frail-sign-new-deals/

This article doesn’t say anything about 12 months, so I can only assume the rolling contract reset date is 31 August each year, which would mean they have 6 month left unless it automatically renews. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

5 minutes ago, wellfan said:

I’ve read this, but it doesn’t cover the technicalities I asked. Google AI states the following:

A rolling contract of employment for a football manager is a contract that continues until either party gives notice to end it. This type of contract is a type of fixed-term contract that automatically renews on a set date.

What is that set date? End of season? Or what? It can’t always just be 12 months from every date, or has that been stated somewhere? 

 

In SK case it May 2025 which is normally at seasons end. So either side needs to give a notice period that they do not intend to continue (generally 3 months) otherwise the 12 months kicks in.  I'd be amazed if there wasn't an element of compensation for a contract terminated in football but it certainly wouldn't be prohibitive.

[FirParkCornerExile]

4 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Agreed 31 August 2024:

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2024/08/31/stuart-kettlewell-and-stephen-frail-sign-new-deals/

This article doesn’t say anything about 12 months, so I can only assume the rolling contract reset date is 31 August each year, which would mean they have 6 month left unless it automatically renews. 

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2024/02/22/stuart-kettlewell-remains-at-club-until-may-2025/