Stuart Kettlewell discussion thread

[MJC]

25 minutes ago, star sail said:

The lack of empathy and social conscience is staggering.

I just listened to the Caldwell interview. This is not some made up shit. He looked genuinely saddened by the whole sorry affair. Not spin, not propaganda. One of his hard working work colleagues has had to resign because the fans that are there to support turned on him.  

We are talking about a guy who was coming into his work at 6.30am every morning and leaving at 7pm every night quiting because the pressures of the job has taken it's toll. His crime was to have hit a rocky spell in both results and performance. Like every football manager he has paid a heavy price.

This is not a man who has landed on his feet. He has lost his job. He has not played some kind of tactical blinder as I have read more than once on this forum over the last few days. He will almost certainly be going through a difficult time just now both mentally and emotionally. He would have to be to walk away from his job in the way he has. 

The abuse from the fans is real. Not some made up conspiracy against the poor Motherwell fans because they are not fashionable. Just because Celtic and Rangers might be worse, does not make the behaviour of the Motherwell fans acceptable. 

I was at Perth. I heard it and saw the behaviours for myself. Not a tiny minority but a significant minority if not possibly even a majority.

Let's not pretend this is a Kettlewell phenomenon. Baraclough, Robinson, Alexander suffered the very same fate.

The icing on the cake for me has been reading on this forum some of the more reasonably minded going to great lengths to justify the fans behaviour and taking the petted lip because the victim of the abuse and the media have dared to even question these behaviours. 

I have been drifting as a Well fan for a while. I just don't have the sense of pride and identity with the club that I used to have. Age and a changing world  view plays a major factor in that l admit.

I may well be the one out of step now with the general footballing fraternity but I am happy to be so. I just cannot relate anymore to the attitudes I have seen expressed in recent days.

What this incident has proved to me is football fans are generally the same regardless of the club they support. Same attitudes, same mindset just a different coloured flag. 

As I’ve already said the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

There probably was some nasty stuff directed towards Stuart Kettlewell.

But at the same time he’s probably realised that he’s lost the dressing room and could take us no further.

However the media are going to run with the angle and that his departure was solely down to ‘abuse’ and will use and play on that to create the impression that it’s all down to that and the fans who ‘forced him out’. 
 

In this day and age we live in a ‘mock outrage culture’ and people like to believe or at least pretend to believe what they are told by those who shout the loudest and who push the furthest. Social media plays a major part in this as just about everyone has access to up to date information about just about everything that goes on in sport and various other aspects of life. 
 

If personal abuse was directed at Stuart Kettlewell and his family then as I’ve already said that is shameful, but I just find all this uproar just a little bit unconvincing, to say the least. 
 

 

[Lobey_Dosser]

When I seen the interview pop up, I thought Caldwell was taking the opportunity to redress the balance and draw a line under things. How naive was I?

Empathy is one thing but the grief being displayed is over the top. The suggestion that all the players are gutted isn’t going to be believed by anyone watching us recently. I also struggle to fathom how we’ve got from the Aberdeen game on 5th Jan to Monday morning there and the sole reason for leaving is levels of in-person abuse that weren’t discussed previously. 

From the moment Kettlewell resigned, Caldwell’s full focus should have been on finding a replacement. Yet, he didn’t seem particularly enthused by the task. I wouldn’t be overly surprised if he chucks it too. 

[Big Stall]

I dont know how to interpret that interview. Clearly Caldwell is upset by the entire episode but the interview makes it sound as though there has been a death in the family!

Iv got 100% sympathy with the abuse and anyone who is not tuned to the moon knows that it will have happened to sone extent. Caldwell again makes no attempt to discuss what has lead to the abuse. The dire performances, the complete surrender of possession and the inability to learn week after week.

The plus for me is the volume of enquiries we have had so far. Hopefully we can find a good fit along the way and press on. Onwards and upwards, mon the 'well!

[wellgirl]

1 hour ago, MJC said:

As I’ve already said the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

There probably was some nasty stuff directed towards Stuart Kettlewell.

But at the same time he’s probably realised that he’s lost the dressing room and could take us no further.

However the media are going to run with the angle and that his departure was solely down to ‘abuse’ and will use and play on that to create the impression that it’s all down to that and the fans who ‘forced him out’. 
 

In this day and age we live in a ‘mock outrage culture’ and people like to believe or at least pretend to believe what they are told by those who shout the loudest and who push the furthest. Social media plays a major part in this as just about everyone has access to up to date information about just about everything that goes on in sport and various other aspects of life. 
 

If personal abuse was directed at Stuart Kettlewell and his family then as I’ve already said that is shameful, but I just find all this uproar just a little bit unconvincing, to say the least. 
 

 

I agree with much of what you have said but. The players were apparently genuinely gutted that he was gone and I dont think that means he lost the dressing room

[smiddy]

“4k big bad well fans forced SK out with abuse

papers all over it

50k bears “ up to there knees in 

feen#@n blood “

there will be nothing mentioned bout it 

just rotten scottish press 

[wellgirl]

2 hours ago, star sail said:

The lack of empathy and social conscience is staggering.

I just listened to the Caldwell interview. This is not some made up shit. He looked genuinely saddened by the whole sorry affair. Not spin, not propaganda. One of his hard working work colleagues has had to resign because the fans that are there to support turned on him.  

We are talking about a guy who was coming into his work at 6.30am every morning and leaving at 7pm every night quiting because the pressures of the job has taken it's toll. His crime was to have hit a rocky spell in both results and performance. Like every football manager he has paid a heavy price.

This is not a man who has landed on his feet. He has lost his job. He has not played some kind of tactical blinder as I have read more than once on this forum over the last few days. He will almost certainly be going through a difficult time just now both mentally and emotionally. He would have to be to walk away from his job in the way he has. 

The abuse from the fans is real. Not some made up conspiracy against the poor Motherwell fans because they are not fashionable. Just because Celtic and Rangers might be worse, does not make the behaviour of the Motherwell fans acceptable. 

I was at Perth. I heard it and saw the behaviours for myself. Not a tiny minority but a significant minority if not possibly even a majority.

Let's not pretend this is a Kettlewell phenomenon. Baraclough, Robinson, Alexander suffered the very same fate.

The icing on the cake for me has been reading on this forum some of the more reasonably minded going to great lengths to justify the fans behaviour and taking the petted lip because the victim of the abuse and the media have dared to even question these behaviours. 

I have been drifting as a Well fan for a while. I just don't have the sense of pride and identity with the club that I used to have. Age and a changing world  view plays a major factor in that l admit.

I may well be the one out of step now with the general footballing fraternity but I am happy to be so. I just cannot relate anymore to the attitudes I have seen expressed in recent days.

What this incident has proved to me is football fans are generally the same regardless of the club they support. Same attitudes, same mindset just a different coloured flag. 

I get this post, completely, dont give up though

[Onthefringes]

3 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

I get this post, completely, dont give up though

You would 🙄 Inane.

[smiddy]

8 minutes ago, smiddy said:

“4k big bad well fans forced SK out with abuse

papers all over it

50k bears “ up to there knees in 

feen#@n blood “

there will be nothing mentioned bout it 

just rotten scottish press 

Sorry bout this i didnt read back enough to see the smellic fans were called out for doing it last night 👍

[FirParkCornerExile]

The whole thing has been a clusterfuck from the club. I worked in HR for years. The first thing you do is do an investigation before issue a sweeping statement putting suspicion on everyone. 

What should have happened is 

1. SK should have advised BC when he first became aware of personal abuse.

2. BC should have told SK what support and mitigations would be put in place to ensure he stayed as manager if that is what he truly wanted.

Those mitigations should have been a statement issued from the club along the lines

"the club have been made aware of personal abuse being directed at SK from a small number of fans located in XXXXX. The club will not tolerate this. Stewards and Security have been alerted and going forward any supporters found to be carrying out such abuse will be ejected from the ground and temporary bans put in place. Repeat offenders will have lifetime bans imposed".

but no they just issue a statement saying we have regrettably accepted SK resignation because of abuse from fans. A curse on all our supporters allowing a media feeding frenzy to develop. 

If the club did offer this solution to SK and he still wanted to resign they should have said so, along the lines of 

"the club have been made aware of personal abuse being directed at SK from a small number of fans located in XXXXX. The club will not tolerate this. The club offered to put mitigations in place to give SK assurances that this will not go on un-challeged. SK has refused such an offer an we have regrettably accepted  his resignation". 

[wellgirl]

32 minutes ago, Onthefringes said:

You would 🙄 Inane.

That right. Im inane, no bother. Funny that its me you are going in on rather than the person who posted the original post, odd that but not surprising in the least. Its easier to pick off some posters than others - that's very clear from your comment. 

I suggest you put me on ignore and keep me there. Youre the poster who said the well bois didnt put a foot wrong from recollection - enough said. There should be room for all kinds of opinions on here but there clearly isnt. 

Ps Im a lot of things - but inane isn't one of them, maybe reflect before you start name-calling me for doing nothing but support someone else's post on here. We can only have certain opinions or we arent welcome on here - no bother. 

 

[Spiderpig]

 I can't believe how many people are falling for this " a good manager hounded out by foul mouthed fans" bullshit. 

SK walked because he was out of ideas, unable to determine his best 11 from what he had available, playing players out of position, non threatening sitting back and hoping something would happen  tactics, strange random substitutions,  alleged dressing room fallouts, and generally having no plan to turn our form round.

So before being punted he walks bleating about alleged personal abuse etc the media take the bait and all of a sudden it's the fans fault and his reputation is clear, the club board and the WS then make it worse by effectively backing up his claims again blaming the fans.

So all we've had for days is negative PR and how toxic our support is, not a word about the brutal football SK had us playing.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt up to the cup defeat but then the shambles the next week convinced me he had lost the dressing room and was out of ideas.

He's gone so we move on and hopefully get a manager in that sets us up to actually try to win games again, but given the PR disaster the board and the WS failed to avoid I hope they get their act together in choosing the right manager to take the club forward, time will tell.

[FirParkCornerExile]

3 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

 I can't believe how many people are falling for this " a good manager hounded out by foul mouthed fans" bullshit. 

SK walked because he was out of ideas, unable to determine his best 11 from what he had available, playing players out of position, non threatening sitting back and hoping something would happen  tactics, strange random substitutions,  alleged dressing room fallouts, and generally having no plan to turn our form round.

So before being punted he walks bleating about alleged personal abuse etc the media take the bait and all of a sudden it's the fans fault and his reputation is clear, the club board and the WS then make it worse by effectively backing up his claims again blaming the fans.

So all we've had for days is negative PR and how toxic our support is, not a word about the brutal football SK had us playing.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt up to the cup defeat but then the shambles the next week convinced me he had lost the dressing room and was out of ideas.

He's gone so we move on and hopefully get a manager in that sets us up to actually try to win games again, but given the PR disaster the board and the WS failed to avoid I hope they get their act together in choosing the right manager to take the club forward, time will tell.

I agree I'm not fussed he's gone but the club have been amateurish and been a PR disaster dealing with it. I've felt bored out my tits for nearly 18 months watching his teams. His timing has also been a clusterfuck for us , instead of strengthening in the Jan window we are in complete limbo. Wasnt going to the Celtic game on Sunday if SK had still been there but I'll go now in the hope of seeing a different approach albeit it will end in the usual defeat.

[wunderwell]

8 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

 I can't believe how many people are falling for this " a good manager hounded out by foul mouthed fans" bullshit. 

SK walked because he was out of ideas, unable to determine his best 11 from what he had available, playing players out of position, non threatening sitting back and hoping something would happen  tactics, strange random substitutions,  alleged dressing room fallouts, and generally having no plan to turn our form round.

So before being punted he walks bleating about alleged personal abuse etc the media take the bait and all of a sudden it's the fans fault and his reputation is clear, the club board and the WS then make it worse by effectively backing up his claims again blaming the fans.

So all we've had for days is negative PR and how toxic our support is, not a word about the brutal football SK had us playing.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt up to the cup defeat but then the shambles the next week convinced me he had lost the dressing room and was out of ideas.

He's gone so we move on and hopefully get a manager in that sets us up to actually try to win games again, but given the PR disaster the board and the WS failed to avoid I hope they get their act together in choosing the right manager to take the club forward, time will tell.

I'm glad I didn't leave the forum after our mini argument on the ins and outs.
Because this we can entirely agree upon.

[mfc]

5 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

 I can't believe how many people are falling for this " a good manager hounded out by foul mouthed fans" bullshit. 

SK walked because he was out of ideas, unable to determine his best 11 from what he had available, playing players out of position, non threatening sitting back and hoping something would happen  tactics, strange random substitutions,  alleged dressing room fallouts, and generally having no plan to turn our form round.

So before being punted he walks bleating about alleged personal abuse etc the media take the bait and all of a sudden it's the fans fault and his reputation is clear, the club board and the WS then make it worse by effectively backing up his claims again blaming the fans.

So all we've had for days is negative PR and how toxic our support is, not a word about the brutal football SK had us playing.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt up to the cup defeat but then the shambles the next week convinced me he had lost the dressing room and was out of ideas.

He's gone so we move on and hopefully get a manager in that sets us up to actually try to win games again, but given the PR disaster the board and the WS failed to avoid I hope they get their act together in choosing the right manager to take the club forward, time will tell.

Bang on the money,kettlewell has played a blinder here,he's looking like the victim helped by endless drivel being spouted in the media,I couldn't believe when I read one headline that said "exceptional kettlewell hounded out".this is a guy that had no internet in trying to win games of football and tried to bore us all to death.i said after the cup game that any semi competent manger would be an upgrade on kettlewell and I stand by it.the club needs to get there act together and drop the self pity shit,looking at caldwell,he looks like a deer caught in the headlights at a time when he needs to be stepping up 

[wellgirl]

11 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

 I can't believe how many people are falling for this " a good manager hounded out by foul mouthed fans" bullshit. 

SK walked because he was out of ideas, unable to determine his best 11 from what he had available, playing players out of position, non threatening sitting back and hoping something would happen  tactics, strange random substitutions,  alleged dressing room fallouts, and generally having no plan to turn our form round.

So before being punted he walks bleating about alleged personal abuse etc the media take the bait and all of a sudden it's the fans fault and his reputation is clear, the club board and the WS then make it worse by effectively backing up his claims again blaming the fans.

So all we've had for days is negative PR and how toxic our support is, not a word about the brutal football SK had us playing.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt up to the cup defeat but then the shambles the next week convinced me he had lost the dressing room and was out of ideas.

He's gone so we move on and hopefully get a manager in that sets us up to actually try to win games again, but given the PR disaster the board and the WS failed to avoid I hope they get their act together in choosing the right manager to take the club forward, time will tell.

People can surely have different opinions on this

Its ok to be sorry that SK has gone for example. I suspect he walked for more than one reason - and that's fine

[wunderwell]

1 minute ago, wellgirl said:

People can surely have different opinions on this

Its ok to be sorry that SK has gone for example. I suspect he walked for more than one reason - and that's fine

Absolutely pal - this is a forum and there needs to be a balance between what we all see.
Your contrasting views makes the debate.

[wellgirl]

1 minute ago, wunderwell said:

Absolutely pal - this is a forum and there needs to be a balance between what we all see.
Your contrasting views makes the debate.

Thanks pal - I appreciate that

[weeyin]

21 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

 I can't believe how many people are falling for this " a good manager hounded out by foul mouthed fans" bullshit.

Is anybody falling for it? Or are they just cashing in on clicks?

[star sail]

49 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

That right. Im inane, no bother. Funny that its me you are going in on rather than the person who posted the original post, 

 

I think it was a double hit wellgirl. It was actually quite well done. Off the inside of both posts and in. Don't let it get to you. 

You and I (and a few others) have taken a view over the last few days that has proved to be fairly unpopular. It does not necessary make it wrong but the flack does come with it. 

It's all part of the discussion.

 

[0Neils40yarder]

In a world where, no amount, level or type, of verbal abuse is allowed...just how are the modern fitba fans meant to show their unhappiness at whatever drivel it is that's been served up?

 

This is a semi-serious question...yes, we are there to support but at what stage are we allowed to be unhappy and what form should that unhappiness be shown?

[Benson]

1 hour ago, wellgirl said:

I get this post, completely, dont give up though

"I heard it" can you clarify what you heard,I'm sure many on here can handle it and not affect them,I'm being honest with you,what was shouted at kettlewell.

[wellgirl]

I get why people are unhappy and why they feel the support has been thrown under the bus -but Im not going to come out and call Stuart a liar either. I think he did call it quits too early but someone on Facebook said he looked ill last week - like Hammell did towards the end - and I would not wish that on anyone. And from my point of view - we do have a toxic minority in our support. Look at that photo in one of the Herald pieces - its a young fan sitting giving Kettlewell the fingers

I dont get it because that's not the way I react when we lose. I dont think he left only because of fan abuse -but I dont think hes lying either. Ive seen the way some of our fans react to players from my seat in the East Stand - and its a minority. Ive also spoken to fans who go to away games who have said they have seen players badly verbally abused - but according to some fans it never happened.

[steelman1991]

2 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

we do have a toxic minority in our support. Look at that photo in one of the Herald pieces - its a young fan sitting giving Kettlewell the fingers

Holy shit is this what we’ve come to. The bad boys gave me the fingers and that’s supposed to equate to being toxic. The lunatics are taking over the asylum.

[wellgirl]

4 minutes ago, Benson said:

"I heard it" can you clarify what you heard,I'm sure many on here can handle it and not affect them,I'm being honest with you,what was shouted at kettlewell.

I didnt post the original post. 

[wellgirl]

56 minutes ago, steelman1991 said:

Holy shit is this what we’ve come to. The bad boys gave me the fingers and that’s supposed to equate to being toxic. The lunatics are taking over the asylum.

 Im not on here to be personally name called. Hope that helps. Please dont call me a lunatic. I really do not appreciate it. You cant have an opinion on here without being called names - fair enough. Ive also lost people in my family due to mental health which is probably why I feel the way I do on some issues. The word lunatic being sent in my direction is completely offensive given some of the stuff me and my family have been through. 

Whatever. You can have your opinions and I will have mine. I am not on here to be name called or belittled on any level for my opinions - I really hope you get that. Other people have disagreed with me on this issue without getting personal like you have.

Funny how you think its ok that fans give Stuart the fingers - when its completely unnecessary and a disgrace. That photo is awful and it shames our club, you can see the hate being directed to him if you look at it.