Stuart Kettlewell discussion thread

[Great Balls of Shire]

8 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

So is there any point punting him before Saturday? Unless they are bringing in someone immediately.

Also if we don't get a result on sat , ketts might resign saving the need to sack ....shame I like the bloke but another mgr losing his job due to some players but he keeps picking them

[David]

There's every chance he might be given the January window to make things right. As incredible as that may sound to some people.

[wellfan]

8 minutes ago, David said:

There's every chance he might be given the January window to make things right. As incredible as that may sound to some people.

Giving Kettlewell the January window (to likely fuck up again) would be like gifting gloves to an armless man. If that happens, and we go down, I don't think many fans could forgive the Board and will act with their feet and wallets by taking them elsewhere. 

[Spit_It_Out]

15 minutes ago, David said:

There's every chance he might be given the January window to make things right. As incredible as that may sound to some people.

We could pick up nothing between now and new year and i still think he will be given time i cant see a transfer window making any difference unless they can shift out all the dross that Kettlewell and Daws signed in the summer.

However what i find intresting is wasnt it the same Stuart Kettlewell the other week saying the sacking of managers in Scotland is an utter disgrace?Maybe that is playing on our boards mind giving them food for thought.

[David]

I think before we sack another manager we need to ask ourselves a few questions.

1. Are we realistically going to get someone else in before the end of the month? And by someone else, I mean an actual, proper candidate. Not Stevie Frail or David Clarkson.

2. Will another manager find himself in a position to make wholesale changes in January? Because the chances are that a new manager is going to want to change things up quite a bit, and this current squad is very much built to Kettlewell's specification, including no natural wingers, and very light on actual midfielders.

3. Is sacking yet another manager actually the answer? Is it the correct message to send out to the players, that whenever they find themselves in a situation where they underperform, they won't be held accountable? And that they'll be given a clean slate with a new manager?

I think we need to take all of the above into account. For me, unless we have an outstanding candidate who is ready and willing to jump in straight away, there's no point in sacking Kettlewell.

One thing we do know is that he's capable of getting something from this group of players. He did it before. Maybe he can do it again? I don't know if a fresh face for the sake of "something must be done!!!!" is the answer.

EDIT: Also, I've merged the "new manager" thread with this one. I don't think it's quite right to be discussing a new manager as if it's a foregone conclusion when we still have a gaffer in the dugout. 

[steelboy]

He should be sacked by now.

Even if he was given the three games to get a win the nature of the performance last night should have overridden that. The players don't want to play for him and in modern football that's a death sentence for a manager. 

[Watford Well Boy]

[SteelmaninOZ]

2 hours ago, twistandshout1983 said:

See the Scottish Sun already talking about Lennon for the job when of course Kettlewell is still in the job 

Take anything they say with a pinch of salt , Lambert and McCall two others mentioned 

They pinched that from this forum 

[Yoshi-1991]

Only reason he shouldn't be sacked by now is he hasn't gone into work.

 

Cant be sacked if you don't show up.

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, David said:

EDIT: Also, I've merged the "new manager" thread with this one. I don't think it's quite right to be discussing a new manager as if it's a foregone conclusion when we still have a gaffer in the dugout. 

Is that not censorship David? I get that offensive posts ie foul language, sectarian or racial abuse etc are not acceptable but posters should be able to discuss what they like  whether or not you or I approve. 

[David]

3 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Is that not censorship David? I get that offensive posts ie foul language, sectarian or racial abuse etc are not acceptable but posters should be able to discuss what they like  whether or not you or I approve. 

It's not censorship. It's basically the same discussion at this point. He's still in the job. 

If and when he is relieved of his duties the discussion changes direction and he's longer a factor in it.

When I say I don't think it's quite right, I don't mean from a personal perspective as far as my own feelings, I mean from the viewpoint that it's the same discussion. 

[joewarkfanclub]

2 hours ago, David said:

I think before we sack another manager we need to ask ourselves a few questions.

1. Are we realistically going to get someone else in before the end of the month? And by someone else, I mean an actual, proper candidate. Not Stevie Frail or David Clarkson.

2. Will another manager find himself in a position to make wholesale changes in January? Because the chances are that a new manager is going to want to change things up quite a bit, and this current squad is very much built to Kettlewell's specification, including no natural wingers, and very light on actual midfielders.

3. Is sacking yet another manager actually the answer? Is it the correct message to send out to the players, that whenever they find themselves in a situation where they underperform, they won't be held accountable? And that they'll be given a clean slate with a new manager?

I think we need to take all of the above into account. For me, unless we have an outstanding candidate who is ready and willing to jump in straight away, there's no point in sacking Kettlewell.

One thing we do know is that he's capable of getting something from this group of players. He did it before. Maybe he can do it again? I don't know if a fresh face for the sake of "something must be done!!!!" is the answer.

EDIT: Also, I've merged the "new manager" thread with this one. I don't think it's quite right to be discussing a new manager as if it's a foregone conclusion when we still have a gaffer in the dugout. 

These are all very good points and precisely why Ive been defending him throughout this turgid run.

However, as someone who heavily criticised his summer signings, do you think its wise to give him another window?

Im not sure anymore.

If he had purely been hamstrung due to the dearth of talent at his disposal (making allowances that the players he signed werent his top targets and all he could get on our budget) then I could be persuaded.

But his decision making these last couple months has been chronic. He isnt even getting the best out of the players we have, let alone new ones we dont even know yet.

Stick or twist.

Its a huge decision for the board.

[David]

2 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

However, as someone who heavily criticised his summer signings, do you think its wise to give him another window?

Honestly? I don't think whoever comes in next will fare much better. If we remove the ridiculous signing of Bair, the rest are pretty much what we've come to expect the past few years. 

Unless we make some serious changes in the recruitment process and personnel I don't know if changing managers will make much of a difference in that regard.

What we do know is that this squad as it is has been partly shaped by Kettlewell and how he wants to play. Another manager may come in and decide he wants to use wingers and change things up, and I'm not sure we can really do that from a financial standpoint this winter.

[mfc]

He's got to go,a big reason why were in the mess that were in is down to the dross that we signed over the summer,the next transfer window is going to be huge whoever is in charge and it might just be the thing that keeps us up,allowing him to bring in more guys like bair will surely be the end for us this season.i get there's no guarantees that any new manager will be able to bring in better players but for me it's our only option now,change manager and hopefully we get the desired lift as well as hoping for a productive january,it's a big ask but it's definitely do able.

[joewarkfanclub]

1 minute ago, David said:

Honestly? I don't think whoever comes in next will fare much better. If we remove the ridiculous signing of Bair, the rest are pretty much what we've come to expect the past few years. 

Unless we make some serious changes in the recruitment process and personnel I don't know if changing managers will make much of a difference in that regard.

What we do know is that this squad as it is has been partly shaped by Kettlewell and how he wants to play. Another manager may come in and decide he wants to use wingers and change things up, and I'm not sure we can really do that from a financial standpoint this winter.

Surely that comes down to the remit during application or preferably headhunting process?

I honestly believe we dont need too many players in January to avoid the drop.

We mostly just need to get the best out of the ones we do have.

Id love SK to be the guy that does that  but he is showing no signs of it at this point.

We need to get back to basics. Get hard to beat. Play players in their preferred positions. Kinda like he did against Celtic and then immediately forgot that had happened.

We could do with another midfielder although if he would play Davor that might not be quite so urgent.

But what gave us and SK success last season was dynamic wingbacks and a guy in the middle that could score.

Get Spencer and Gent in their proper positions and give Biereth something to feed off. The 3 of them are being ruined in our current set up.

[David]

3 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Surely that comes down to the remit during application or preferably headhunting process?

I honestly believe we dont need too many players in January to avoid the drop.

We mostly just need to get the best out of the ones we do have.

Id love SK to be the guy that does that  but he is showing no signs of it at this point.

We need to get back to basics. Get hard to beat. Play players in their preferred positions. Kinda like he did against Celtic and then immediately forgot that had happened.

We could do with another midfielder although if he would play Davor that might not be quite so urgent.

But what gave us and SK success last season was dynamic wingbacks and a guy in the middle that could score.

Get Spencer and Gent in their proper positions and give Biereth something to feed off. The 3 of them are being ruined in our current set up.

You could be right. It could even be the case that someone like a Stevie Frail could keep us up, but the issue I have there is that it's just a rinse and repeat of what we've done so far.

If Frail, for example, kept us up, would he then get the job full-time? Beginning another cycle of where we got with Hammell and Kettlewell?

[texanwellfan]

2 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Surely that comes down to the remit during application or preferably headhunting process?

I honestly believe we dont need too many players in January to avoid the drop.

We mostly just need to get the best out of the ones we do have.

Id love SK to be the guy that does that  but he is showing no signs of it at this point.

We need to get back to basics. Get hard to beat. Play players in their preferred positions. Kinda like he did against Celtic and then immediately forgot that had happened.

We could do with another midfielder although if he would play Davor that might not be quite so urgent.

But what gave us and SK success last season was dynamic wingbacks and a guy in the middle that could score.

Get Spencer and Gent in their proper positions and give Biereth something to feed off. The 3 of them are being ruined in our current set up.

I like O’Donnel but your last paragraph is the way to go. Spencer on right with Gent on the left. McGinn Bevis Casey back 3. Slattery Spittal Paton in between Spencer and Gent. Top two Mika and one other from Obika/Shaw/Wilkinson 

Having Spencer and Gent should help stretch defenses making more room in the middle or if not then it should afford some space for Spencer and Gent to fire in some crosses 

all round, more focus and effort is needed. We should look like we are fighting for our survival, because that’s what we are doing. We are sadly missing a Peter Hartley type leader on the field. 
oooopsss! Casey probably injured so O’Donnel in the back 3. Hopefully McGinn ready to come back in. 

[wellsince75]

I’m beyond defending SK.

he started well , had a clear plan , got rid of lots of poor players only to lose sight of said clear plan , make horrendous signings and lose grip of any credible approach .

time to sign a manager with experience who has a positive record .

equally time to bin the recruitment team - it’s been a joke for seasons 

[Spit_It_Out]

We actually need a clean out of Daws and what ever recruitment we have In place right now but I honestly think Kettlewell seems like a man that would have the final say 100 percent blame firmly at his door.

When you stand back and think we are stuck with Bair and Wilkinson for another year and half it's truly terrible bit of business.Worst front line at Fir Park in many a years.

I mind Kettle well saying we were looking to sign players that might have had a bad season I don't think he ment actually useless and injury prone.

 

[joewarkfanclub]

3 minutes ago, David said:

You could be right. It could even be the case that someone like a Stevie Frail could keep us up, but the issue I have there is that it's just a rinse and repeat of what we've done so far.

If Frail, for example, kept us up, would he then get the job full-time? Beginning another cycle of where we got with Hammell and Kettlewell?

That definitely has to stop.

This is where we could really do with the Well Society stepping up.

If we really are a fan owned club then we should be able to influence the direction of it.

Demanding that the correct processes be put in place for a secure future would be a good starting point.

[star sail]

It is really difficult to know where to start with this. The third manager in as many seasons suffering the same drop off in performance level from his players as the previous two men.

Go back just 3 months ago and this same team had just won away to Hearts with Kettlewell enjoying once of the best win percentage of any manager in the clubs history. Can it really become a terminal situation once again in such a short space of time?

Reading the forum last night was bizarre. Not only were there some posters almost relishing the position the team finds itself in once more but there were others showing hostility towards those who have attempted to support the manager over this difficult few months. Some of the language is tasteless and highly emotive, particularly when we consider that Kettlewell is a man who saved us from relegation last season and has clearly given his all to make his time a success. 

I should not be surprised. Swap out the name of  Kettlewell for Hammell/ Alexander/ Robinson/ Baraclough etc.... and it is an all to familiar read on these boards.

Last night was a worry but I don't think it necessary means the end for Kettlewell. I think his team selection last night was one of a man who has let the pressure get to him. He has lost his head somewhat as one poster described it. This does not make him a poor manager necessarily, just a guy that is not thinking straight under difficult circumstances.

I think this is the sort of time that club chairmen need to step in and do their bit. Help the manager ( in this case Kettlewell) clear his head. Try to help him see clearly once more. What was working so well just six months ago that is not working now? How can we get back to making simple, effective decisions.

I want Kettlewell to get the gig on Saturday for four very simple reasons:

1. I would love to see the guy turn it round and give the club some much needed stability. 

2. To see the club buck the modern trend of sacking managers at the first sign of trouble. As a club we are quickly gaining a reputation for just that unfortunately.

3. It might just break a culture in the club where players down tools at the first sign of trouble should Kettlewell be able to turn this round.

4. If Kettlewell could turn this round it might silence, for just a little while, those on these boards that offer little by way of support to the manager or the team.

It is the easiest thing in the world to say that the manager is rubbish and should be sacked because in all likelihood most managers are now just 4/5 poor results away from the sack. It does not make you a visionary to spout the same negative vibes time and time again to then claim victory when almost enivitably managers are shown the door.

I am not saying Kettlewell will turn this round. Actually for the first time last night I think the balance shifted towards him not getting out of this. All I am saying is that I hope every option of support is given to him at the club to help him turn this round. If he gets that chance this weekend we need to back him. The atmosphere does not have to be toxic unless the fans choose to make it that way.

 

 

[grizzlyg]

As said before I have been one of the most vociferous backing Kettlewell but the performances.... formations and team selections have just got worse and worse 

For me McGinn out injured has been massive, always a steady 7/8 out of 10 and Casey looks lost without him.  

If no change come Saturday then it's 3pts or cheerio. Thankfully contract is only till the summer so no big pay out.

I won't start thinking of who comes in as SK is still in a job for now

But finally for all we can criticise SK the players really need a hard look at themselves, I know there are ones that get criticised regardless but even the likes of Casey and Butcher have been terrible recently.

It's not all doom and gloom and we can get out of this but a lot of work required and if SK still in charge for St Johnstone game we need to create a great atmosphere which I know is difficult but any negativity or booing our players plays right into St Johnstone's hands..... COYW 

[grizzlyg]

1 minute ago, star sail said:

It is really difficult to know where to start with this. The third manager in as many seasons suffering the same drop off in performance level from his players as the previous two men.

Go back just 3 months ago and this same team had just won away to Hearts with Kettlewell enjoying once of the best win percentage of any manager in the clubs history. Can it really become a terminal situation once again in such a short space of time?

Reading the forum last night was bizarre. Not only were there some posters almost relishing the position the team finds itself in once more but there were others showing hostility towards those who have attempted to support the manager over this difficult few months. Some of the language is tasteless and highly emotive, particularly when we consider that Kettlewell is a man who saved us from relegation last season and has clearly given his all to make his time a success. 

I should not be surprised. Swap out the name of  Kettlewell for Hammell/ Alexander/ Robinson/ Baraclough etc.... and it is an all to familiar read on these boards.

Last night was a worry but I don't think it necessary means the end for Kettlewell. I think his team selection last night was one of a man who has let the pressure get to him. He has lost his head somewhat as one poster described it. This does not make him a poor manager necessarily, just a guy that is not thinking straight under difficult circumstances.

I think this is the sort of time that club chairmen need to step in and do there bit. Help the manager ( in this case Kettlewell) clear his head. Try to help him see clearly once more. What was working so well just six months ago that is not working now? How can we get back to making simple, effective decisions.

I want Kettlewell to get the gig on Saturday for four very simple reasons:

1. I would love to see the guy turn it round and give the club some much needed stability. 

2. To see the club buck the modern trend of sacking managers at the first sign of trouble. As a club we are quickly gaining a reputation for just that unfortunately.

3. It might just break a culture in the club where players down tools at the first sign of trouble should Kettlewell be able to turn this round.

4. If Kettlewell could turn this round it might silence, for just a little while, those on these boards that offer little by way of support to the manager or the team.

It is the easiest thing in the world to say that the manager is rubbish and should be sacked because in all likelihood most managers are now just 4/5 poor results away from the sack. It does not make you a visionary to spout the same negative vibes time and time again to then claim victory when almost enivitably managers are shown the door.

I am not saying Kettlewell will turn this round. Actually for the first time last night I think the balance shifted towards him not getting out of this. All I am saying is that I hope every option of support is given to him at the club to help him turn this round. If he gets that chance this weekend we need to back him. The atmosphere does not have to be toxic unless the fans choose to make it that way.

 

 

Great post

[MJC]

5 hours ago, David said:

You're talking nonsense right there. Don't make the naive error of believing that because someone is a supporter of the club, isn't overly negative, and tries to see the positives that they're absolute morons. 

No one I have spoken to would want Faddy to get the job. At all. If he did get it, would they support him? Absolutely. Big difference there though.

I’ve spoken to a few who would have Faddy as manager. “Get him in that dressing room and he’ll show the players just what it means to play for Motherwell” being one of thems reasoning for giving him the job, that and “he’s a Motherwell legend”.

I would obviously support McFadden if he was given the job too. I’d be absolutely disgusted but at the end of the day if he was the manager I’d be behind him at least until he proved that he wasn’t up to it. 

[MJC]

8 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Great post

It is a great post and in particular it raises a very important issue that seems to being missed by a lot of people. That the players and a good few of the same ones at that, have appeared to chuck it under three different managers now. The same also happened under Robinson but I think there’s only SO’D and Mugabi still at the club from when he left at the end of 2020.

That would point to the real issues at the club going deeper than the man in the dugout. Too many at Fir Park have been allowed to live in a comfort zone for too long and this applies on and off the park in my opinion. The decision making with regards to recruitment, the appointing of managers and the process of replacing a failed manager have been amateurish for far too long, particularly going back to summer 2022 when Hammell was given the gig. And on the park the fact that Stephen O’Donnell is still with the club atall never mind getting a regular game is shocking. He is and has been nothing but an imposter in our jersey and his attitude and application is woeful and that is something that has ran through the tenures of Robinson, Alexander, Hammell and now SK. Yet he’s still getting a game. That’s a someone in a comfort zone right there.