Kmcalpin Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 44 minutes ago, wellgirl said: Honestly. This forum is just an anti Stuart Kettlewell forum just now and Ive had it. Stick your head above the parapet and you get shot down by some posters. Snidely too. And I'm not talking about you but I am sick of it. It is miserable. It's the get Kettlewell binned or get lost according to some posters I wouldn't take these posts personally. There are all shades of opinion on SK in our support and its hard to gauge the balance of opinion. I get the rough feeling though that most are dubious of keeping him on past the end of the season, but are willing to wait to see where we end up (for the record, I'm in this camp). A few want him kept on and a few want him out now which I think is unrealistic. Sk had a poor summer's recruitment but we don't know under what financial constraints he's been working to be fair. We also don't know what objectives he's been set. What I would say though is that had SK been in charge at almost any other Premiership club, he would be gone by now for that horrendous winless run. As to who might replace him, I think a few are jumping the gun by assuming that it would be another internal appointment like David Clarkson, but I may be putting 2 and 2 together here and getting 6. For my part I haven't got a clue. By the end of the season, we'll have another Chairman and CEO and they'll have their own ideas. Thats my take on the matter and it might be right or it might be wrong. Ther's nothing wrong in generating respectful debate though - that's what these boards should be all about 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 34 minutes ago, wellgirl said: My point was that some people on here apparently know the person who would take over from Kettlewell if he were sacked and someone on here said everyone knows who it is. I dont know who they are That was probably me. I meant that if the club were to bin Kettlewell between now and May, they would promote from within rather than go looking elsewhere, so it would be Frail, Foster or Clarkson. That's only my opinion, not a fact, but I think everything would point to that course. Of course, it's highly unlikely they'll sack him, something Weir appeared to confirm a few weeks ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelmaninOZ Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, grizzlyg said: Wee quiz question for you on this Tuesday night. Q. What is SK's favourite solo pop act since 2000 onwards? I'll give you a clue.....it isn't Plan B!! Thank you very much 😜😜😜 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 I’d be ok with SK continuing to be our manager for next season, which I believe will still be in the top flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellsince75 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 Our issues are beyond an individual manager. Scottish football has been on an ongoing decline for decades and all the clubs are wrapped up in the gulf between us an other leagues. The club needs to sort itself out and build a more sustainable long term future with CEO, Chairman etc. Financially s a 50:50 split on playing/non playing side is hurting us. I don't see the same investment in youth, it's not the machine it was in the early part of this century. Then you get to the first team, we've slashed the squad size and suspect salary per player. SK has made poor summer signings but fair play for how he's resolved it. He's also made some errors in formation, in game management. Overall though given what he's been up against my personal view is he's performing pretty well and not convinced there's a queue of any better managers waiting in the wings to do something magical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 5 minutes ago, wellsince75 said: Our issues are beyond an individual manager. Scottish football has been on an ongoing decline for decades and all the clubs are wrapped up in the gulf between us an other leagues. The club needs to sort itself out and build a more sustainable long term future with CEO, Chairman etc. Financially s a 50:50 split on playing/non playing side is hurting us. I don't see the same investment in youth, it's not the machine it was in the early part of this century. Then you get to the first team, we've slashed the squad size and suspect salary per player. SK has made poor summer signings but fair play for how he's resolved it. He's also made some errors in formation, in game management. Overall though given what he's been up against my personal view is he's performing pretty well and not convinced there's a queue of any better managers waiting in the wings to do something magical. Add to that list the cash we are allegedly spending each year funding a women's team. For me that's a vanity exercise and the money could be better spent elsewhere. But I totally agree the problems are not limited to SK the whole governance of the club needs to be looked at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, Spiderpig said: Add to that list the cash we are allegedly spending each year funding a women's team. For me that's a vanity exercise and the money could be better spent elsewhere. Why should we not have a women's team? We're a community club and it's good for all of the young ladies in the area to have both male and female footballers to look up to. Women's football is growing rapidly in other countries with teams moving to 'men's' stadia and playing before huge crowds. Our club absolutely should be supporting this initiative and hopefully they'll be able to play regularly at Fir Park in the future. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 2 hours ago, wellsince75 said: Our issues are beyond an individual manager. Scottish football has been on an ongoing decline for decades and all the clubs are wrapped up in the gulf between us an other leagues. The club needs to sort itself out and build a more sustainable long term future with CEO, Chairman etc. Financially s a 50:50 split on playing/non playing side is hurting us. I don't see the same investment in youth, it's not the machine it was in the early part of this century. Then you get to the first team, we've slashed the squad size and suspect salary per player. SK has made poor summer signings but fair play for how he's resolved it. He's also made some errors in formation, in game management. Overall though given what he's been up against my personal view is he's performing pretty well and not convinced there's a queue of any better managers waiting in the wings to do something magical. I can't disagree with much of what you've said on the bigger picture. However, l can't see how a manager who has overseen 2 victories in 20 league games this season, been knocked out of both cups in the 2nd round by a local rival and in the 5th round by lower league opposition, can be described as performing pretty well. A few more league victories against those around us and a better cup run, then maybe I could agree with you on the manager. I don't think we're asking for something magical, but we should at least expect better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelmaninOZ Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, Mad Dog said: Why should we not have a women's team? We're a community club and it's good for all of the young ladies in the area to have both male and female footballers to look up to. Women's football is growing rapidly in other countries with teams moving to 'men's' stadia and playing before huge crowds. Our club absolutely should be supporting this initiative and hopefully they'll be able to play regularly at Fir Park in the future. I agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 13 hours ago, bobbybingo said: That was probably me. I meant that if the club were to bin Kettlewell between now and May, they would promote from within rather than go looking elsewhere, so it would be Frail, Foster or Clarkson. That's only my opinion, not a fact, but I think everything would point to that course. Of course, it's highly unlikely they'll sack him, something Weir appeared to confirm a few weeks ago. Yeah it was. It was just when someone else also indicated that they knew who would take over if Kettlewell went - I didn't have a clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 14 minutes ago, wellgirl said: I didn't have a clue. If it comes to appointing a new manager from outside the club, I think most of us don't have a clue. Luckily, the Facebook intelligentsia are on the case - early favourites include a chimpanzee, a baboon, a dead clown and Stevie Hammell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 8 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: If it comes to appointing a new manager from outside the club, I think most of us don't have a clue. Luckily, the Facebook intelligentsia are on the case - early favourites include a chimpanzee, a baboon, a dead clown and Stevie Hammell. Luckily for you and the club, I don't have or use Facebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 3 hours ago, wellsince75 said: Overall though given what he's been up against my personal view is he's performing pretty well and not convinced there's a queue of any better managers waiting in the wings to do something magical. Even if there were, they wouldnt stay with us very long. A bigger club would come and offer them more money and we would be back to square one. That doesnt mean we should stick with a manager who is failing miserably and WILL get us relegated. But it also doesnt mean we should be pulling the trigger on a manager at the first sign of adversity when the outcome isnt yet certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, wellfan said: I can't disagree with much of what you've said on the bigger picture. However, l can't see how a manager who has overseen 2 victories in 20 league games this season, been knocked out of both cups in the 2nd round by a local rival and in the 5th round by lower league opposition, can be described as performing pretty well. A few more league victories against those around us and a better cup run, then maybe I could agree with you on the manager. I don't think we're asking for something magical, but we should at least expect better. Statistics can be quoted to suit any argument though, depending upon how selective you care to be. What you say result wise is accurate but it is also true to say we have only lost two league games in eleven with one of those losses being to Rangers. And unbeaten in five with two commanding home victories and lots of goals scored. So since end November only one league loss (Ross County away) that was extremely disappointing. So would you acknowledge that recent league results actually indicate an overall improvement? The only stat that really matters for now is our League position and that has improved considerably over those eleven games. So actually two examples...results and league position... that suggest Kettlewell and his team are performing much better now than they were using the stats you selected. Am I happy with our League position and enjoying this season? Definitely not! Am I angry at losing to Morton and frustrated by some of the team selections that Kettlewell puts on the pitch? Definitely yes! But I think overall and taking into account those recent improvements that it would be foolhardy to replace Kettlewell at this time. The time to assess his position is at season end. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 24 minutes ago, wellfan said: Luckily for you and the club, I don't have or use Facebook. The Motherwell page is populated by the ones who never made it over the cuckoo's nest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfc Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 Kettlewell will be here until the end of the season,there's no way the club will get rid of him before then,if they wanted to it would have happened a few games back when we were in a worse position than we are now.we definitely looked like we had turned a corner but the morton game was a right kick in the balls,hopefully there isn't any lasting damage from that defeat and we move on quickly.i would personally like us to part with kettlewell at the end of the season but I've no idea what direction the club will go in,if kettlewell is to remain we need a big clear out,guys like mugabi and o'donnell need to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, dennyc said: So would you acknowledge that recent league results actually indicate an overall improvement? Yes, they indicate an improvement in terms of the ratio of draws to defeats, but that's about it. I remain convinced that victories are better than draws. Unfortunately, I almost concede that the time to replace Kettlewell has passed, but I still think it's clutching at straws when all fans have and use to defend his record is some draws and a victory against a team in utter disarray. The 2 in 20 debacle will need more than that to change my mind about him for the better, but the cup exit certainly put a nail in that coffin anyway. The end of the season can't come quick enough. That the club is in the position of tolerating such a poor record is pathetic. It feels a little like they've gaslit us into accepting that this is our level and it's what we should come to expect from hereon in. It's simply not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, wellfan said: Yes, they indicate an improvement in terms of the ratio of draws to defeats, but that's about it. I remain convinced that victories are better than draws. Nobody in their right mind would suggest that victories are not better than draws. Or that draws are not better than defeats for that matter. Just seems that some fans have lost sight of recent progress. The cup exit being a huge blow. But I agree we could be doing better this season and recruitment needs looking at. I share your annoyance about the " Finding our Level " party line. Sadly I fear that communication will continue until our structure and financial situation change for the better. Hopefully our new Leadership, when and if they are in place, can conjure up some solutions and provide us with some hope.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 The issue I have is that the manager is the one candidate who takes the brunt of failings elsewhere in the club. I was unsure about Kettlewell when he came in, but having had the second half of last season and all of this season to see what he's all about, I think I'd have to say that he's one of the best football coaches in the division. He came in last season and helped Van Veen become a goal machine. Van Veen had 13 goals in 29 games before Kettlewell came in. He got 16 goals in 15 games post-Kettlewell. This is a guy who managed 24 goals in 139 games in League One in England. That works out roughly at a goal every ten games or so. I give the player himself a lot of credit for that, but when you see an uptick in form like that when a new coach comes in with new ideas and a new coaching style, it's usually connected as well. Theo Bair, I don't need to get into. I'm still absolutely astounded at the turnaround in that guy. Before he came here, everything about him suggested he was not a professional-level footballer. His stats, and not just his goalscoring numbers, at other clubs, were laughable in many cases. His xG and so on was abysmal. Throw in the fact that his failure was taking place at levels like the bottom of MLS at a Canadian side who were terrible during that time and the Norwegian second division. At St Johnstone, he looked like a tall, rangy basketball player who was trying to become a footballer. What he's doing now is down to three things - Athletic ability, work ethic, and a very high level of coaching. Blair Spittal has quietly become something of a revelation this season. Again, it's not just down to the coaching, but that's a huge part of it. Paul McGinn has looked better this season than last, and even the likes of Stephen O'Donnell and Harry Paton look like improved players, to some degree, this season. The only blot in the copybook is Liam Kelly, and I'm not sure what can really be done when a keeper hits a bad run of form and makes individual mistakes. That's not all coincidence. It's the kind of team spirit that the manager has created at the club and some really good coaching. Which is why I think we'd be mental to let him go. Yes, there's issues at the club. But for me, the manager and level of coaching are the only thing that's saved us from tail spinning entirely. Sort out the recruitment team and get things in order at the very top, and I think we'd be in good shape. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsterwood Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 8 minutes ago, David said: This is a guy who managed 24 goals in 139 games in League One in England. That works out roughly at a goal every ten games or so. Van veen scored 36 in 49 games in Dutch football which you didn't include in stats, and div 1 is higher level than spl so it's not too surprising to see record increase. Also Spittal has always scored for teams he has played for and got assists. Ross county wanted to keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 19 minutes ago, robsterwood said: Van veen scored 36 in 49 games in Dutch football which you didn't include in stats, and div 1 is higher level than spl so it's not too surprising to see record increase. Also Spittal has always scored for teams he has played for and got assists. Ross county wanted to keep him. It cannot be argued that Van Veen was a better player when he walked out the door at Fir Park than he was when he arrived. If he were pulling up the same stats and performances before we signed him, he'd have never come to Motherwell in the first place. Spittal is a good player, but again, he's really taken it to a new level this season. I honestly don't see how anyone can look at his body of coaching work while he's been here and claim that Kettlewell has been anything other than very good. Recruitment, how the club is run, finances and all that? Open to criticism, for sure. But Kettlewell is the coach, and while he'll have some say in the positions the team needs filling, he won't be acting as the head of recruitment. We already have a guy and a team for that. I personally think our recruitment process is incredibly flawed, as I've said elsewhere. But the coaching is good enough I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 4 minutes ago, David said: It cannot be argued that Van Veen was a better player when he walked out the door at Fir Park than he was when he arrived. If he were pulling up the same stats and performances before we signed him, he'd have never come to Motherwell in the first place. Spittal is a good player, but again, he's really taken it to a new level this season. I honestly don't see how anyone can look at his body of coaching work while he's been here and claim that Kettlewell has been anything other than very good. Recruitment, how the club is run, finances and all that? Open to criticism, for sure. But Kettlewell is the coach, and while he'll have some say in the positions the team needs filling, he won't be acting as the head of recruitment. We already have a guy and a team for that. I personally think our recruitment process is incredibly flawed, as I've said elsewhere. But the coaching is good enough I think. As someone who has supported SK more than most, I agree with much of this. He was asked to do a job at the start of the season. Cull the squad, get the playing budget down, keep us in the league. He is still on course to do this. It has without doubt been a bumpy ride and we are not there yet. But there needs to he some realism shown to the cards dealt to him and some slack given. That said, my main issue with SK is his in game decision making which has at times been left wanting and on occasion quite baffling. He needs to get better than that and show he can effect games positively on a more consistent basis. What is not in doubt are his man management skills and his ability to keep the players with him. Queue Liam Kelly having a blinder tonight (please)....... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellsince75 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 5 hours ago, wellfan said: I can't disagree with much of what you've said on the bigger picture. However, l can't see how a manager who has overseen 2 victories in 20 league games this season, been knocked out of both cups in the 2nd round by a local rival and in the 5th round by lower league opposition, can be described as performing pretty well. A few more league victories against those around us and a better cup run, then maybe I could agree with you on the manager. I don't think we're asking for something magical, but we should at least expect better. I do get the 2 victories in 20 league games but to politely challenge it's 5 wins in 25 league games this season. 5 wins, 9 draws , 10 losses. Not many Well managers get sacked for this type of tally or league position. The narrative has been bottom 3 budget. As such the expectation should be perform v's the budget The acid test comes at the end of the season. If we remain 8th or better with a budget of 10-12th SK will deserve a bit of credit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 16 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said: That said, my main issue with SK is his in game decision making which has at times been left wanting and on occasion quite baffling. I agree with that. What I would say is that if he had all of the other qualities mentioned above, and his weaknesses weren't there, he wouldn't be our manager. I'd wager that the issues he has with in-game management will solve themselves over time. He's still relatively young in the management game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 2 hours ago, wellsince75 said: The acid test comes at the end of the season. If we remain 8th or better with a budget of 10-12th SK will deserve a bit of credit. As a sceptic, I'd say if we finish 10th or above and show some signs of progress then he will deserve credit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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