wellfan Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 1 minute ago, grizzlyg said: There will be folk that will never like SK and those that can see him do no wrong. Me?.....I said before I would have punted him after Ross Co pumping in December but slowly and surely is starting to turn things round and learning from mistakes. Overthinks at times and definitely needs to recruit well in the summer but I am prepared to stick with him. ...'sit up and pay attention'...and you wouldn't have had that view in December, according to some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 16 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said: I've changed my view on him. During our horrendous run, I was all for parting ways, but he has turned things around and we'll now finish 9th at worst with the second lowest playing budget in the league. I think what did turn up the presure on him was the nature of our results. A more even distribution of results would not have seen the same fan reaction, as we saw during that shocking run. Last summer and and in January he had a fair bit of deadwood to offload, which he did fairly successfully and I expect that to continue in the coming weeks. So he'll have more financial leeway. There will be a lot of departuress and arrivals over the summer, and he'll have the chance to build his own squad and stamp his name on it. Lets hope he achieves a high success rate - all managers do have their transfer failures. I'm looking for him to strengthen the defence and defensive midfield, as a priority. I hate the term "Punching abnove our weight" and I don't think its unrealistic to aim for a top 6 place next term and a good cup run. We should be setting that as an achievable target. If we can we add better in game management and stop the mad substitutions on top of that we can defo make top 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 7 minutes ago, wellfan said: Yeah. Top six and, more so, a good cup run should be the absolute minimum targets set each season for the manager. I'm sick and tired of the 10th spot less-than-mediocrity crap, as nothing will ever be achieved when the minimum targets are set so low. Some may call that unrealistic for whatever reason. However, given our 40-year presence in the top league, our likely budget, our stature and structure, aiming for anything less is just treading water and hoping for an annual miracle against the odds. The 10th spot thing is often mis-represented. Its for budgetary purposes only to ensure we dont run into huge debts. That doesnt mean the playing targets wont be higher. Incremental improvements are the stable way to success. The speculate to accumulate route is frought with danger for a club like ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 4 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said: The 10th spot thing is often mis-represented. Its for budgetary purposes only to ensure we dont run into huge debts. That doesnt mean the playing targets wont be higher. Incremental improvements are the stable way to success. The speculate to accumulate route is frought with danger for a club like ours. I understand that the 10th spot thing is often cited for budgetary purposes, which can be misrepresented, and I expect and hope the playing targets are indeed set higher. My comment that we should be aiming for nothing less than the top 6 and, more so, a good cup run is in no way linked to me suggesting that we should be irresponsibly speculating to accumulate. I think these targets should be the absolute minimum for us, and it would be more progressive and positive to frame our approach like that instead of pleading poverty about our 10th-best budget position. The latter will never improve until the former becomes a stable reality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 Looking at the ‘bigger picture’ re: Kettlewell, I’m glad that we’ve been able to get through a season without having to change manager and will more likely than not have the same manager in charge going into next season. After the Alexander to Hammell to Kettlewell upheaval of 2022/23 it’s good that we finally have a bit of stability and hopefully that benefits us during the summer window. SK does need to show that he’s learned from previous mistakes with transfers, granted, but he’s earned the right to another chance after comfortably keeping us up. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Balls of Shire Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 1 hour ago, wellfan said: Congratulations on producing the most sanctimonious of all posts on this topic. I hope you've enjoyed the victory atop your massive ivory tower. I'm surprised you found the time to enjoy the result late last night while searching for a months-old post of mine written off the back of an appalling winless run on 2 January. Context is key, but petty irony is free. You've put yourself out there to be shot at with your forthright views If you'd just written sanctimonious last week fair dues, but you had to overegg it . I wasn't for punting SK , you were, for the time being keeping him was right decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyMax Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 I wasn't for punting Kettlewell during the bad run, simply because there was no sign of disharmony or lack of effort in the squad and apart from a couple of notable exceptions, there were few absolutely dross performances. Just fine margins, a missed chance, a defensive howler being the difference in a lot of games. With regard to budget and expectations, there are a lot of people on here who simply won't forgive the signing of a player that doesn't work out. Newsflash.......every single manager in every single league brings in players who don't work for one reason or another. Is the suggestion here that Motherwell should be able to hire a manager who only signs players that work out perfectly ? OK, we've got a smaller budget that most teams in the league, so bad buys show up more, but really, at the point of signing a contract, who would have put Moult above Fletcher ? There's that or numerous other examples we could bring up. Tommy McLean signed countless dross players in his time, but he also made some of the best signings ever. Everyone wants the team to be the best it possibly can be, but you do have to make allowances for who we are, how big we are and what we have to attract players with (i.e. not unlimited money). Every season is a new opportunity to improve, but we'll have good games, we'll have bad games, we'll have highs a we'll have lows and, in our league, very fine margins in a few games will decide if we're chasing europe or fighting relegation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 32 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said: You've put yourself out there to be shot at with your forthright views If you'd just written sanctimonious last week fair dues, but you had to overegg it . I wasn't for punting SK , you were, for the time being keeping him was right decision. Of course people can shoot at my forthright views, and I'll respond, but I'll certainly re-make my point in doing so as I won't be derided by others in their weak attempts to belittle me or my views. Referring to a nondescript collective as sanctimonious pricks is fine as far as I'm concerned, yet it seems to have touched a nerve with a few members of the forum. I wonder why. Furthermore, I'm sure most on here would agree that it would only be over-egging it if I referred to a particular individual as a sanctimonious prick, which I specifically did not do. Kettlewell obviously isn't going anywhere for the time being, and that's just that. I can still hold my views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wispy Flossy Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 There was a good bit of discussion about Kettlewell on radio Scotland yesterday. Craigan, who was covering our game, mentioned he spoke to Derek weir at the height of our winless run, and Derek advised his it was a close call to pull the trigger on Kettlewell but ultimately it was decided we as a club required some stability, notwithstanding about half a dozen managers and assistants being on the payroll at the same time. I’m glad that it’s turned out well, and I say that as someone who would happily have had him gone around December. The ‘pundits’ unanimously agreed that the club deserved enormous credit for the handling of the situation. However as John Boyle once said ‘one minute you’re a peacock the next minute you’re a feather duster’ if we have a bad start to next season then the discussions could be had again. But that’s football I guess and not unique to our club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 47 minutes ago, Big Wispy Flossy said: There was a good bit of discussion about Kettlewell on radio Scotland yesterday. Craigan, who was covering our game, mentioned he spoke to Derek weir at the height of our winless run, and Derek advised his it was a close call to pull the trigger on Kettlewell but ultimately it was decided we as a club required some stability, notwithstanding about half a dozen managers and assistants being on the payroll at the same time. I’m glad that it’s turned out well, and I say that as someone who would happily have had him gone around December. The ‘pundits’ unanimously agreed that the club deserved enormous credit for the handling of the situation. However as John Boyle once said ‘one minute you’re a peacock the next minute you’re a feather duster’ if we have a bad start to next season then the discussions could be had again. But that’s football I guess and not unique to our club If that's true I think that's a bit off. Kettlewell is on record as saying there were no discussions with him regarding his future at Motherwell when we were going through that poor run. McMahon was also on record as saying in February that he thought Kettlewell was the person to take the club forward - and our form still wasn't great at that point But Craigan who has no connection to Motherwell apart from being an ex player is told by a board member that they were considering sacking Kettlewell during that time period. And he's repeating this publicly? The pundits think the board deserve enormous credit for not sacking a manager during a poor run? I completely agree with you re the revolving door of managers issue btw. I just think that Kettlewell deserves to have the pressure eased off him a bit - and get a bit of credit as well. I know we didn't get top six and that some of his signings were poor. But we've been up against it as well. The injury list. Mika and Spencer being recalled. And tbh for me. This was honestly the first season in a long time where I actually really did think we might end up in a play off position and I didn't fancy our chances if we had. It's been a huge turnaround even if it might not always feel like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 2 hours ago, MJC said: Looking at the ‘bigger picture’ re: Kettlewell, I’m glad that we’ve been able to get through a season without having to change manager and will more likely than not have the same manager in charge going into next season. After the Alexander to Hammell to Kettlewell upheaval of 2022/23 it’s good that we finally have a bit of stability and hopefully that benefits us during the summer window. SK does need to show that he’s learned from previous mistakes with transfers, granted, but he’s earned the right to another chance after comfortably keeping us up. He has made mistakes with transfers clearly but I think he's also made some decent decisions. Gent. Vale. Nicholson. He's done a really good job with Bair as folk know. I think we were also unlucky as I've said elsewhere. If Mika hadn't had that injury and then been recalled our season might have been v different. I'm not suggesting btw that we should rely on one player but when you have someone as talented as that and they are firstly injured and then recalled it's going to be a sore one. I agree with you - he's kept us up comfortably. Don't see any reason why we would be thinking of parting ways with him at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistandshout1983 Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 Stuart Kettlewell has earned the right to be manager next season Was a really poor 15 game run between September-December , would have been worse had it not been for a good few draws Apart from the 15 game winless run just mentioned his time at the club has been a positive for me Sir Alex Ferguson was once a game away from being sacked and the rest was history as they say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 2 minutes ago, twistandshout1983 said: Stuart Kettlewell has earned the right to be manager next season Was a really poor 15 game run between September-December , would have been worse had it not been for a good few draws Apart from the 15 game winless run just mentioned his time at the club has been a positive for me Sir Alex Ferguson was once a game away from being sacked and the rest was history as they say This. And you know looking back at this thread from the beginning. Are there many names that folk were saying that back then that they would rather actually have right now instead of Kettlewell? Loads of names were mentioned am sure including Levein. He's got loads of management experience and look at the position St Johnstone are in right now. Of course he'd made fuck ups along the way but a massive for me was that he didn't lose the dressing room when we were on that poor run. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistandshout1983 Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 3 minutes ago, wellgirl said: This. And you know looking back at this thread from the beginning. Are there many names that folk were saying that back then that they would rather actually have right now instead of Kettlewell? Loads of names were mentioned am sure including Levein. He's got loads of management experience and look at the position St Johnstone are in right now. Of course he'd made fuck ups along the way but a massive for me was that he didn't lose the dressing room when we were on that poor run. I would be taking Kettlewell over Craig Levein any day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 15 hours ago, wellfan said: I understand that the 10th spot thing is often cited for budgetary purposes, which can be misrepresented, and I expect and hope the playing targets are indeed set higher. My comment that we should be aiming for nothing less than the top 6 and, more so, a good cup run is in no way linked to me suggesting that we should be irresponsibly speculating to accumulate. I think these targets should be the absolute minimum for us, and it would be more progressive and positive to frame our approach like that instead of pleading poverty about our 10th-best budget position. The latter will never improve until the former becomes a stable reality. The club has made it perfectly clear that it budgets for 10th and a bit of a cup run, but in no way aims for 10th place as a target. However, while we should certainly be aiming for top six, to claim top six should be "the absolute minimum" isn't very realistic. And saying that we should stop "pleading poverty" is a bit off. We're not "pleading poverty," we're being realistic. We are where we are financially, and deciding that top six "at minimum" is our target won't change that. We aim for top six every season. That should not change. But if we start laying that down as a bare minimum to our manager then we'd be chopping and changing every second season or so. By your thinking we should be looking at sacking Kettlewell this summer on the back of an unsuccessful season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 6 hours ago, David said: By your thinking we should be looking at sacking Kettlewell this summer on the back of an unsuccessful season? The emphasis in my post was on the cup run requirement because I acknowledge that that is a more realistic target than an annual top 6 finish. On your point re. Kettlewell, he's achieved neither, which is shit, but he's kept us safe so is invincible. “we should be aiming for nothing less than the top 6 and, more so, a good cup run” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 8 minutes ago, wellfan said: The emphasis in my post was on the cup run requirement because I acknowledge that that is a more realistic target than an annual top 6 finish. On your point re. Kettlewell, he's achieved neither, which is shit, but he's kept us safe so is invincible. “we should be aiming for nothing less than the top 6 and, more so, a good cup run” Good cup runs can be harder to achieve than decent league finishes if your luck's out. First knockout round draws at Ibrox or Parkhead and, realistically, we're done. Obviously, going out meekly to lower league teams should never be seen as acceptable, but I think circumstances have to be taken into account - achievable targets rather than absolute requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 7 hours ago, David said: The club has made it perfectly clear that it budgets for 10th and a bit of a cup run, but in no way aims for 10th place as a target. Sorry to be that guy, but from what was said at the AGM we budget for exiting the cups at the earliest stage we can each season. It was essentially explained that anything above that is a bonus to be added to the pot for the following season, or January window that season etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 The Motherwell manager’s annual performance review: Bottom six CHECK Zero cup runs CHECK Dismal winless run CHECK Good guy CHECK Tenth place or better CHECK Congratulations, you've helped the club achieve its annual target of racing to the bottom. Well done, highly effective, now do the same again next season and you have a job for life. - - - And for those who cannot detect the sarcasm in the above, yes, a manager who keeps us at 10th place at best every season has done well to a degree and shouldn't be automatically binned. You can't blame a manager for a club setting shit standards. However, any club with such a race-to-the-bottom mentality as its minimum target for its manager will continue to tread water and achieve nothing other than an annual shit fight for 10th. It's grim that the club budgets for (and seemingly tolerates) pathetic early exits from domestic cups on an annual basis, for example. Such a mentality puts zero pressure on anyone to achieve anything optimistic and is tantamount to rewarding failure. It's a results-driven business, not a job for the boys and good guys club. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yosemite sam Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 Totally agree about this pleading poverty shit. I'm sick of hearing SK bleating on about we've not got a lot of money to spend etc etc etc. Just get on with managing whatever budget we have, and don't keep emphasising the negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 2 minutes ago, wellfan said: The Motherwell manager’s annual performance review: Bottom six CHECK Zero cup runs CHECK Dismal winless run CHECK Good guy CHECK Tenth place or better CHECK Congratulations, you've helped the club achieve its annual target of racing to the bottom. Well done, highly effective, now do the same again next season and you have a job for life. - - - And for those who cannot detect the sarcasm in the above, yes, a manager who keeps us at 10th place at best every season has done well to a degree and shouldn't be automatically binned. You can't blame a manager for a club setting shit standards. However, any club with such a race-to-the-bottom mentality as its minimum target for its manager will continue to tread water and achieve nothing other than an annual shit fight for 10th. It's grim that the club budgets for (and seemingly tolerates) pathetic early exits from domestic cups on an annual basis, for example. Such a mentality puts zero pressure on anyone to achieve anything optimistic and is tantamount to rewarding failure. It's a results-driven business, not a job for the boys and good guys club. OK then what do you see as a realistic good season for us and what should we aim for? Oh and how do we achieve it on our current financial level. We'd all like the club to sign better players, win trophies, qualify and progress in Europe etc, but in the real world that takes a much bigger financial Input for players and everything else that goes with it, which we don't have, so how do we achieve it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 49 minutes ago, wellfan said: The Motherwell manager’s annual performance review: Bottom six CHECK Zero cup runs CHECK Dismal winless run CHECK Good guy CHECK Tenth place or better CHECK Congratulations, you've helped the club achieve its annual target of racing to the bottom. Well done, highly effective, now do the same again next season and you have a job for life. - - - And for those who cannot detect the sarcasm in the above, yes, a manager who keeps us at 10th place at best every season has done well to a degree and shouldn't be automatically binned. You can't blame a manager for a club setting shit standards. However, any club with such a race-to-the-bottom mentality as its minimum target for its manager will continue to tread water and achieve nothing other than an annual shit fight for 10th. It's grim that the club budgets for (and seemingly tolerates) pathetic early exits from domestic cups on an annual basis, for example. Such a mentality puts zero pressure on anyone to achieve anything optimistic and is tantamount to rewarding failure. It's a results-driven business, not a job for the boys and good guys club. Financial/budgetary and playing targets are fundamentally not the same thing though. A football club is a business first and foremost and has to be run properly and prudently by its board, otherwise we'd be in the shitter debt wise. We're not, because the club has been run well over the last 10 years. It's been said on the investment options thread we're attractive for investors as a direct result of the profits and sustainability that we've delivered consistently. The seasons we've made those good profits, we've then invested in the squad by signing the likes of Kelly, Slattery etc. There are bonuses tied to player's own and squad performances. The accounts for the last few seasons show higher payouts because of the collective bonuses for the squad finishing top-6, in Europe etc. Good cup runs and better results on the pitch result in higher money for the players. So we do provide incentives for players to do well in the cups and the league. To suggest that a race-to-the-bottom mentality equates to good financial planning and business acumen, when there's performance based incentives in place for the entire squad just doesn't wash. Edit: also, just did a quick check and this is the first season where we've not reached the quarter finals of one of the cups since 2019/2020. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 25 minutes ago, wellfan said: It's grim that the club budgets for (and seemingly tolerates) pathetic early exits from domestic cups on an annual basis, for example. Such a mentality puts zero pressure on anyone to achieve anything optimistic and is tantamount to rewarding failure. It's a results-driven business, not a job for the boys and good guys club. They may just have been the final nails in their coffins, but pathetic cup exits were the last games Baraclough, Alexander and Hammell oversaw. And sarcasm or not, the suggestion any Motherwell manager would have a job for life is demonstrably untrue. Kettlewell will go the same way as all the rest - the board has had enough, he has had enough, or we're successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Balls of Shire Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 14 minutes ago, yosemite sam said: Totally agree about this pleading poverty shit. I'm sick of hearing SK bleating on about we've not got a lot of money to spend etc etc etc. Just get on with managing whatever budget we have, and don't keep emphasising the negative. One thing about the manager, he doesn't come across as negative. If we get another 3k ws uptake then maybe the no money thing won't be as big an issue , but that's not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Balls of Shire Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 22 hours ago, wellfan said: Of course people can shoot at my forthright views, and I'll respond, but I'll certainly re-make my point in doing so as I won't be derided by others in their weak attempts to belittle me or my views. Referring to a nondescript collective as sanctimonious pricks is fine as far as I'm concerned, yet it seems to have touched a nerve with a few members of the forum. I wonder why. Furthermore, I'm sure most on here would agree that it would only be over-egging it if I referred to a particular individual as a sanctimonious prick, which I specifically did not do. Kettlewell obviously isn't going anywhere for the time being, and that's just that. I can still hold my views. I dare say you had people in mind with your " sanctimonious pricks" comment...you were out of line , calling any fellow fans that . Strikes me you will try and justify it till the cows come home , so I'll leave you to it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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