2023/24 ins & outs discussion

[fizoxy]

9 minutes ago, David said:

By "marquee signing" you mean another big player from the lower reaches of the English game with a patchy goalscoring record and no real creativity and skill?

I mean someone who we see as our first choice striker and regarded as our best signing of the summer. I don't think that where the player comes from matters in that distinction.

[David]

Just now, wellfan said:

Pretty much, or Fletcher... Either way, KVV was always going to be difficult to replace. Obika isn't the answer and it's too early to judge Wilkinson, but early signs are not promising. 

Personally, I'd be more inclined to give young Ferrie more game time rather than the likes of Obika and/or Wilkinson. 

[wellsince75]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

I still feel there is a player there in Tierney so hopefully he gets a lot of game time and experience 

Yes , he knows where the goals are . 
 

our new formation doesn’t work for him , maybe cover for Spittal but too lightweight for covering .

Good luck to the lad 

 

[MFCL84]

Sorry to see Tierney away on loan. Hopefully, it is a really productive season for him and he can do enough to set himself up ready to make an impact at Fir Park next season.

I've always thought that he had something to offer. He is different from others that we have in the squad. He works between and through the lines and is able to make things happen. If he doesn't fit SK preferred shape he would still be very useful as someone to come on and change the game dynamic.

As said earlier, we do seem to be losing players that can make a difference. Hopefully, some creativity arriving later in the window.

[David]

Just now, wellsince75 said:

our new formation doesn’t work for him , maybe cover for Spittal but too lightweight for covering .

This belief that smaller players are "too lightweight" has surely been recognised as absolute nonsense now that we've spent a few years watching Celtic players under 5'8 and weighing ten stone soaking wet absolutely tearing the leagues big, strong defenders a new arsehole on a weekly basis? 

It's about getting in the right players, and using a formation that suits them. We do neither. It's working for us just now because we're fresh off a 2nd half of a season with Van Veen playing like Mbappe, but with his goals now gone there's every chance we end up looking like the team we were watching in the latter half of Alexander's run.

Devoid of creativity, and full of big lumps who aren't capable of playing football.

Just now, MFCL84 said:

Sorry to see Tierney away on loan. Hopefully, it is a really productive season for him and he can do enough to set himself up ready to make an impact at Fir Park next season.

He won't. He'll be looking to make an impact so he can sign for a new team when his contract with us expires in May of next year.

[SteelmaninOZ]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

I still feel there is a player there in Tierney so hopefully he gets a lot of game time and experience 

He’s gone mate away on a season loan.

[fizoxy]

FYI - Teirney is under contract until June 2025.

[David]

Just now, fizoxy said:

FYI - Teirney is under contract until June 2025.

Really? I'm sure I read that he was up next May. I doubt it makes much difference mind you, because unless we end up with a different manager next season he won't be playing.

[fizoxy]

I thought he was up next year too, when someone mentioned it on p&b I had to check the website.

Unless he absolutely tears it up, i doubt we ever see him back.

[wellsince75]

36 minutes ago, David said:

This belief that smaller players are "too lightweight" has surely been recognised as absolute nonsense now that we've spent a few years watching Celtic players under 5'8 and weighing ten stone soaking wet absolutely tearing the leagues big, strong defenders a new arsehole on a weekly basis? 

It's about getting in the right players, and using a formation that suits them. We do neither. It's working for us just now because we're fresh off a 2nd half of a season with Van Veen playing like Mbappe, but with his goals now gone there's every chance we end up looking like the team we were watching in the latter half of Alexander's run.

Devoid of creativity, and full of big lumps who aren't capable of playing football.

He won't. He'll be looking to make an impact so he can sign for a new team when his contract with us expires in May of next year.

I'll re-frame what I meant about Tierney, 

His strength was he'd be able to chip in with his goals. 

Other aspects of his game aren't good enough. 

 

[grizzlyg]

1 hour ago, SteelmaninOZ said:

He’s gone mate away on a season loan.

Yep I know, didn't word it well,.....bit like ma jokes!! 🤣🤣

[Kmcalpin]

Tierney's loan departure is best for both parties and was on the cards. He doesn't seem to fit in with SK's plans and hasn't kicked on since he signed. Ostensibly talented but has shortcomings in his game and is a bit lightweight according to various social media commentators and a couple of his managers. Frees up a wage.

SK is proving adept at moving on players who aren't in his plans.

[grizzlyg]

If we are set to announce a "marquee" signing then it would be awesome if it was Tent Alexander-Arnold!!.   Ah'll get me coat

[weeyin]

Presumably Tierney's new employers don't see him as lightweight, despite League Two having more than it's fair share of bruisers. 

[MelvinBragg]

I always kind of thought there was a player in Tierney but we weren't sure how to use him. He also suffered from being often brought on late in games when the team was playing poorly and asked to turn it around..  Pretty obvious though that barring a managerial change, his time at Fir Park is over. Pretty early but my instinct is that Walsall sending us Wilkinson and getting Tierney, they're getting the better end of that deal...

 

Only other thought is with Tierney away and Shields (and if rumours are to be believed Efford) to follow out the door, we have very very few attacking options. Particularly given Wilkinson and Obika's injury records. I know Kettlewell likes running with a small squad. It's starting to look skeletal.. 

 

[gaz7]

2 hours ago, David said:

This belief that smaller players are "too lightweight" has surely been recognised as absolute nonsense now that we've spent a few years watching Celtic players under 5'8 and weighing ten stone soaking wet absolutely tearing the leagues big, strong defenders a new arsehole on a weekly basis? 

It's about getting in the right players, and using a formation that suits them. We do neither. It's working for us just now because we're fresh off a 2nd half of a season with Van Veen playing like Mbappe, but with his goals now gone there's every chance we end up looking like the team we were watching in the latter half of Alexander's run.

Devoid of creativity, and full of big lumps who aren't capable of playing football.

He won't. He'll be looking to make an impact so he can sign for a new team when his contract with us expires in May of next year.

Big difference between kyogo.hatate abada et al and tierney David and comparing them is just silly. He is  imo and others too lightweight because up to this point he has shown he can't do things that the aforementioned celtic players do so his deficiencies get highlighted more.

Our most successful team of recent times that got to 2 cup finals was made up of 6ft battlers and whilst the football was grim it worked results wise.

I now feel that we have to go this way as the quality of attacking players/wingers that we can afford are usually not good enough(van veen apart) to beat any of the defenders in the league on a 1 on 1 scenario. 

Kettlewell also feels this hence the 352 since he came in and not playing any so called more skilfull players.

 

[Kmcalpin]

13 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

I now feel that we have to go this way as the quality of attacking players/wingers that we can afford are usually not good enough(van veen apart) to beat any of the defenders in the league on a 1 on 1 scenario.

An absolutely critical point that many miss.

Any real talent in our squad usually has to come from within our own youth ranks, and thats not guaranteed year in year out.

[twistandshout1983]

Best of luck to Ross Tierney

Guy who I feel never got a proper chance , and better for both parties with a move to Walsall if he gets first team football 

[weeyin]

27 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

Our most successful team of recent times that got to 2 cup finals was made up of 6ft battlers and whilst the football was grim it worked results wise

Kettlewell also feels this hence the 352 since he came in and not playing any so called more skilfull players.

 

Before Robinson, McCall had even more success and he didn't need to resort to any grim stuff.

Based on early season, SK looks like he wants to play from the back and through the thirds (as they say). Those tactics don't require wingers necessarily, but they do need players all over the pitch that can pass the ball.

[fizoxy]

I think he would have got more of a chance if he wasn't frequently injured. His opportunity was probably there when Hammel was manager but he was rarely fit to take advantage of it.

He had some decent games, and had the knack of coming up with goals, but we'd essentially have to change our system to accommodate him, and our form last season under kettlewell was so good that changing the shape would have been folly.

 

[FirParkCornerExile]

To all these people saying Tierney wasnt given a chance. He had  over 300 days in training to convince 3 managers that he should be in the first team. 

[joewarkfanclub]

41 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

Big difference between kyogo.hatate abada et al and tierney David and comparing them is just silly. He is  imo and others too lightweight because up to this point he has shown he can't do things that the aforementioned celtic players do so his deficiencies get highlighted more.

Our most successful team of recent times that got to 2 cup finals was made up of 6ft battlers and whilst the football was grim it worked results wise.

I now feel that we have to go this way as the quality of attacking players/wingers that we can afford are usually not good enough(van veen apart) to beat any of the defenders in the league on a 1 on 1 scenario. 

Kettlewell also feels this hence the 352 since he came in and not playing any so called more skilfull players.

 

Im not sure the football was grim when we got to the 2 cup finals.

It was physical and combative, sure, butnit had a purpose and I found it very entertaining.

It had run its course by the following season though and as Robinson tried to find a way to play more football with new players, we started to get found out.

I think there is a fine balance to be had at our level between being competitive and easy to watch.

For me SK got it just about right last season. Whereas Alexanders version was absolutely brutal to watch, even when we were winning.

Now that the majority of the deadwood is all but gone, it will be an interesting couple of weeks. 

I dont expect a flood of signings, but it would be nice to get a couple in that you could be enthused about.

[joewarkfanclub]

5 hours ago, David said:

I don't think it will make much difference. The manager has made it clear we don't really facilitate players like him. Smaller, more mobile creators who operate in a "number 10" type of position.

Im sensing a bit of negativity from you towards the manager and how this window is going, which is generally not like you. Whats he done or not done that is irking you?

[David]

Just now, gaz7 said:

Big difference between kyogo.hatate abada et al and tierney David and comparing them is just silly. He is  imo and others too lightweight because up to this point he has shown he can't do things that the aforementioned celtic players do so his deficiencies get highlighted more.

The big difference is that Kyogo and Maeda are better players. 

My point is, Tierney isn't too lightweight. There's other lightweight players in the league who do just fine. If we're saying he's not good enough, then that's a different discussion. But this idea that Tierney being lightweight is what is holding him back just isn't true.

Just now, joewarkfanclub said:

Im sensing a bit of negativity from you towards the manager and how this window is going, which is generally not like you. Whats he done or not done that is irking you?

I'm just not all that impressed by who we've brought in, and who we've lost. I also wasn't impressed when he said the following about Danzaki:

“Riku, technically, you can understand why he was brought to the club for a particular style of play. That has substantially changed, in terms of formation. Riku would probably indicate he is a number 10. I have not played with a number 10 at times.

“I see it a completely different way, so that would probably let you acknowledge why it could be difficult for him at times to get in. ”

I'm not necessarily saying Danzaki should have been kept, but the noises from Kettlewell about how he doesn't really accommodate a number 10 type of player is alarming in my opinion. Maybe that's because I grew up watching football where that type of player was considered a real asset to have. Someone who can change a game with a pass or a run.

I don't see us having that approach now, and while we did get results the second half of last season, I still wonder how much of that was down to Van Veen and how much was down to Kettlewell.

I guess we'll see this season, because I don't see us having anyone close to Van Veen's abilities this season.

[weeyin]

To his credit, it didn't take SK long to figure out how to best utilise van Veen.