2023/24 ins & outs discussion

[Coatsy]

Does anyone else have the fear that our marque signing will be Stephen Fletcher

[santheman]

16 minutes ago, Coatsy said:

Does anyone else have the fear that our marque signing will be Stephen Fletcher

At this moment in time I'd welcome him with open arms.

[wellfan]

Our squad was bloated due to the two previous management regimes, but that’s no longer the case and the Board has made it clear that Kettlewell will not be given a similar budget to allow that to happen again. However, given who’s gone out, and noting what Kettlewell has said in the media, I'd assume he's got the budget for 2-3 more signings. And it’s worth considering that perhaps some of that budget will be kept aside to rescue him in January if the ‘project’ strikers fail to do the business in the coming months. There is no need to panic or slaughter anyone yet.

OUT
Max Johnston
Kevin van Veen
Mikael Mandron
Connor Shields
Jack Aitchison
David Devine
Jake Carroll
Josh Morris
Riku Danzaki
Corey O'Donnell
Daniel Hunter
Kian Speirs
Stuart McKinstry
James Furlong
Ollie Crankshaw
Ross Tierney (loan)
Robbie Mahon (loan)
Sam Campbell (loan)

IN
Davor Zdravkovski
Theo Bair
Pape Souare
Conor Wilkinson
Jon Obika

[David]

Just now, weeyin said:

You think SK, a man whose livelihood and reputation depends on winning games, signed a player because his agent said he was good?

We've seen far better managers convinced to sign players for less. Didn't Souness sign someone for Southampton or something who wasn't even a real footballer?

In all seriousness, though, I honestly don't know what Kettlewell is thinking. He's clearly not signing him based on his past performances for any of the teams he's ever played for.

That he sees a player who made his professional debut four years and 92 games ago as a "project" is quite worrying, I think. 

If he was 19 and had played a handful of games, I'd probably be less inclined to criticise the move. As I said, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, especially since he gave the guy a two-year deal.

I saw a St Johnstone fan on another forum saying he figures that the thinking is Kettlewell wants a year to work with him and then a year where he'll be fully up to speed. I'm not sure that works with someone who's the same age right now as Allan Campbell was when he left us for Luton, but I guess we'll see.

Just now, bobbybingo said:

4 goals in 17 appearances makes him one of the worst players they've ever had?

You've actually found fans who are harder to please than our lot. Unless that quote came from the Norwegian Steelboy. 

It came from Google Translate, because it was a joke.

[bobbybingo]

4 minutes ago, David said:

It came from Google Translate, because it was a joke.

You don't say.

"Let's not resort to just making shit up."

[David]

Just now, bobbybingo said:

You don't say.

"Let's not resort to just making shit up."

Christ, you really must be fun at parties. It was obviously a joke. 

[bobbybingo]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Christ, you really must be fun at parties. It was obviously a joke. 

Yeah, I know it was. So what did their fans really say about him?

[David]

Just now, bobbybingo said:

Yeah, I know it was. So what did their fans really say about him?

Honestly? That he was "okay" but nothing special, from what I can see. I don't think many of their fans saw him as a loss because they seemingly got promoted that year and knew he wouldn't make the cut in the top tier. The Norwegian 2nd tier is likely his level, at a push. Or the semi-pro ranks in the US. 

As he's shown during the four years he's been playing football, he's not a Scottish Premiership-level player. Not by a long shot. 

And as I said before, I'm not one for questioning players before they play for us. I've never really done that because I usually have a look at what they bring and think, "Okay, we're never signing players who are the finished article, but this player has the potential to bring something to the table."

We signed Obika and Wilkinson, and while I'm not over the moon or excited by those signings, I can at least see in their past why the manager thinks they can do a job for us if the stars align and it all works out.

I see nothing here. He's 24 years old in a few weeks and has scored eight goals in 92 appearances. Apart from looking half-decent during a short stint in the Norwegian 2nd division, he's failed everywhere else, including in the same league we play in. 

I could even have convinced myself of the signing if it was a 6-month deal. Even a 1-year deal. I could then reason that he's being brought in as an extra body until someone else we really want is available in January or given a chance to prove himself for some weird reason, or whatever. But this is a two-year deal. 

It's just absolute madness, in my opinion. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

4 hours ago, David said:

Nah, wait a minute. I understand that there are some on here who are looking to back a player we've signed, and that's commendable, but let's not resort to just making shit up.

Dan Casey signed for us from America and "had done fuck all of note"?

He had played nearly 100 games in the Irish league by the age of 23. In his second season, he was part of a team that finished 3rd in the league. He also represented Ireland at youth level.

I clearly remember when he was touted as a potential signing here, the overwhelming opinion was that he looked solid and had a lot of potential. 

While you're right, there is no point in getting overly excited or overly depressed, it's what we do. If every single signing was met with measured indifference until they had played 10 games, there'd be zero point in this forum. 

We come here to speculate, discuss, dissect, and deliberate. Especially in the summer when there's been next to no football.

But none of that changes the fact that us signing Theo Bair is a really strange piece of business. Look, I'm not one for criticising the players or manager. Sometimes to the extent that I get hit with the classic "happy clapper" tag, but this one particular signing makes absolutely zero sense to me.

This isn't a young guy who's shown potential but not had the chance to show it. He's someone who's actively accomplished nothing since he "burst onto the scene" and rattled in three goals in three years at Vancouver. 

Fans of every team he's ever played for will tell you that he's not a professional footballer at the level we're playing at. It's that simple.

Of course, I hope he somehow turns it around and shows that the past four years of his entire career have been one big underachievement and that he's able to do something he's never shown a hint of yet. 

Not least because we've handed him a two-year deal, which is even crazier. Unless he breaks the habit of a lifetime, we're going to be stuck with someone who simply isn't good enough.

Nah, he'll just be astounded that he hasn't had to drop down to the semi-pro game in the US or Canada. That call from his agent telling him that after St Johnstone, one of the worst teams in the division, finally terminated his deal has been followed by Motherwell wanting to give him a two-year contract, is probably the best call he's ever received.

And fair play to him. I hope his agent gets paid well because he's done some job.

Dan Casey ; "He had played nearly 100 games in the Irish league by the age of 23. In his second season, he was part of a team that finished 3rd in the league. He also represented Ireland at youth level."

I stand by my assertion Casey has done next to fuck all when we signed him. Tons of guys represent their country at youth level and turn out pish and are never seen again. Also depends how highly you rate the Irish League and how highly you rate the USL Championship, second Tier of US football. He wasn't on his 5th club by the age of 25 because he was a sure bet. 

We will just need to agree to differ.

[David]

Just now, FirParkCornerExile said:

Dan Casey ; "He had played nearly 100 games in the Irish league by the age of 23. In his second season, he was part of a team that finished 3rd in the league. He also represented Ireland at youth level."

I stand by my assertion Casey has done next to fuck all when we signed him. Tons of guys represent their country at youth level and turn out pish and are never seen again. Also depends how highly you rate the Irish League and how highly you rate Sacramento Republic. He wasn't on his 5th club by the age of 25 because he was a sure bet.

Well, no one we sign is a "sure bet." 

But, at the same time, as I mentioned in the post above, they've usually done something to suggest there's a reason why we're signing them. 

In Casey's case it was him being seen as solid and experienced. No one was proclaiming him the second coming of Brian Martin, but the general consensus was that he would help strengthen the defence and was a decent organiser, which we needed.

With Bair, I see absolutely nothing. Not a single thing to warrant us wasting a two-year contract on him. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

11 minutes ago, David said:

Well, no one we sign is a "sure bet." 

But, at the same time, as I mentioned in the post above, they've usually done something to suggest there's a reason why we're signing them. 

In Casey's case it was him being seen as solid and experienced. No one was proclaiming him the second coming of Brian Martin, but the general consensus was that he would help strengthen the defence and was a decent organiser, which we needed.

With Bair, I see absolutely nothing. Not a single thing to warrant us wasting a two-year contract on him. 

Of course that arent,  that was my entire point. There was nothing to suggest Dan Casey would turn out as well as it did so the pile on and condemnation of Theo Bair by many of our supporters is rather strange. I could agree perhaps a two year contract is generous but can you imagine if he turns out as well as Casey and and we'd signed him on a year deal only the bitching would be off the scale.

Bottom line is doesnt matter a fuck what any players history is when the come to us, their history is no guarantee, of failure or success, we take our chance and hope for the best.

[Spiderpig]

All this pish about Bair is getting boring now, he's a Motherwell player so all the usual suspects on here need to suck it up and deal with it, judge him on his future performances not his past.

I don't know why SK and his back up team bother looking for players who needs professional trained and experienced coaches, when they can log on here and get signing tips and advice from some of the roasters posting on here.

As I said he's a well player now so deal with it and get behind him and the rest of the team

[David]

Just now, FirParkCornerExile said:

Of course that arent,  that was my entire point. There was nothing to suggest Dan Casey would turn out as well as it did so the pile on and condemnation of Theo Bair by many of our supporters is rather strange. I could agree perhaps a two year contract is generous but can you imagine if he turns out as well as Casey and and we'd signed him on a year deal only the bitching would be off the scale.

Bottom line is doesnt matter a fuck what any players history is when the come to us, their history is no guarantee, of failure or success, we take our chance and hope for the best.

Of course a players history is no guarantee of success or failure, but it's a very good indicator of their skill and ability levels, isn't it? Otherwise, why would any team bother signing a player based on what he's done in the past?

As I've said above, numerous times, usually when we sign someone I can at least see where the potential is. Can you or anyone else on here tell me where the potential is with this player?

Just now, Spiderpig said:

All this pish about Bair is getting boring now, he's a Motherwell player so all the usual suspects on here need to suck it up and deal with it, judge him on his future performances not his past.

That's the thing, this isn't just "the usual suspects" who are questioning this signing. 

And of course we need to deal with it, he's here, on a two-year fucking deal. But it doesn't mean we can't discuss how mental the deal is, especially on a football forum where that's what we do.

If you don't like it, go do something else. Or discuss something else in one of the other threads. But if people like me want to discuss this particular transfer, we will.

[Spiderpig]

1 minute ago, David said:

 

And of course we need to deal with it, he's here, on a two-year fucking deal. But it doesn't mean we can't discuss how mental the deal is, especially on a football forum where that's what we do.

 

How can you say it's a mental deal when he's just signed ffs, he could go on to score 30 plus goals this season and the deal would  be hailed as brilliant or he could flop and then it would be a bad deal, the point is by all means fill your boots and discuss it to death when we've seen him play and you have evidence to back up your point.

That said if he does go on and has a great season and he was only on a 1 year deal the same people would be on here moaning about why it was not 2 years.

[bobbybingo]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Honestly? That he was "okay" but nothing special, from what I can see. I don't think many of their fans saw him as a loss because they seemingly got promoted that year and knew he wouldn't make the cut in the top tier. The Norwegian 2nd tier is likely his level, at a push. Or the semi-pro ranks in the US. 

As he's shown during the four years he's been playing football, he's not a Scottish Premiership-level player. Not by a long shot. 

And as I said before, I'm not one for questioning players before they play for us. I've never really done that because I usually have a look at what they bring and think, "Okay, we're never signing players who are the finished article, but this player has the potential to bring something to the table."

We signed Obika and Wilkinson, and while I'm not over the moon or excited by those signings, I can at least see in their past why the manager thinks they can do a job for us if the stars align and it all works out.

I see nothing here. He's 24 years old in a few weeks and has scored eight goals in 92 appearances. Apart from looking half-decent during a short stint in the Norwegian 2nd division, he's failed everywhere else, including in the same league we play in. 

I could even have convinced myself of the signing if it was a 6-month deal. Even a 1-year deal. I could then reason that he's being brought in as an extra body until someone else we really want is available in January or given a chance to prove himself for some weird reason, or whatever. But this is a two-year deal. 

It's just absolute madness, in my opinion. 

He failed at St Johnstone under a manager who paid money to sign him, then wouldn't start him, then got the bullet. Folk can decide if that says more about Bair or Davidson.

I haven't seen anywhere near enough of him playing to make any decision about whether he is (or could ever be) good enough for this league, or whether he'd be better off plying his trade in the Norwegian 2nd tier. I don't know what standard that league operates at, but obviously their fans are adept at assessing which players are good enough for Motherwell.

[David]

Just now, Spiderpig said:

How can you say it's a mental deal when he's just signed ffs, he could go on to score 30 plus goals this season and the deal would  be hailed as brilliant or he could flop and then it would be a bad deal, the point is by all means fill your boots and discuss it to death when we've seen him play and you have evidence to back up your point.

That said if he does go on and has a great season and he was only on a 1 year deal the same people would be on here moaning about why it was not 2 years.

I can say it's a mental deal based on the information we have about the player to this point. Are you new to the workings of an internet football forum? 

This is kinda how it works. Not just for us but for every team in every league all over the world. 

• Team signs player in summer window
• Fans discuss it online, looking at said players history & stats
• Player plays in games, and fans discuss how they get on in those games
• Rinse and repeat

I've never seen a football fan community where every signing is met by fans saying "I will reserve judgement on this player until such a time as he's played enough games for us to make an informed decision."

Football fan forums are places for wild speculation, transfer gossip, heated debates about who's the shittest left-back at the club, and why a new signing is great/shite based on nothing but their past records.

Just now, bobbybingo said:

He failed at St Johnstone under a manager who paid money to sign him, then wouldn't start him, then got the bullet. Folk can decide if that says more about Bair or Davidson.

I haven't seen anywhere near enough of him playing to make any decision about whether he is (or could ever be) good enough for this league, or whether he'd be better off plying his trade in the Norwegian 2nd tier. I don't know what standard that league operates at, but obviously, their fans are adept at assessing which players are good enough for Motherwell.

It seems fairly plausible that they bought him, then the manager thought "aw fuck, this guy is terrible" once he got a chance to see him in person. Which is why they ended his contract early and sent him packing. I've yet to find a Saints fan who is saying that the guy got a raw deal, or that they wish they'd kept him or had played him more.

What is concerning me is that we've gone ahead and picked him up on a two-year deal despite seeing that he wasn't able to get into a shite St Johnstone team.

[wellsince75]

It's questionable signing a striker who hasn't scored goals at the age of 23.  He's not a boy who's just starting out. He's played in the same league, irrespective of how poor a team is etc generally strikers know how to score goals. 

It's rare for us to bring in someone with such a poor tally - Ojamma is the only other I can think of in recent memory. 

As a few people have mentioned it raises an eyebrow. Of course we want him to do well and prove to be a success. To me seems a very odd signing.  

Appreciate no one should be bashing players on twitter etc but surprised at the amount of backlash raising an eyebrow has had on this forum.

[weeyin]

We'll find out if SK is a coaching genius, clueless or somewhere in between.

The backlash comes because every signing we've made over the last 3 or 4 seasons (or more) is immediately followed by posts of "useless" before a ball is kicked. 

From Porter to Higdon from O'Hara to Slattery. It's almost like some posters prefer failure so they can say "telt ye"

In general, whether a player is a success or not, it's likely a professional manager or coach is much better placed to make an assessment than pie munching punters like us who think winning at FIFA makes them Pep Guardiola. 

 

[joewarkfanclub]

I think its fair enough to question the length of the deal given the circumstances.

Casey got 6 months to prove he was worth a longer deal.

Something similar for Bair would have been palatable to most and far less risk to the club.

Thats not to say he wont or cant be a success, but it does seem a heck of a gamble to give him a 2 year deal based on very little evidence that he is worth it.

Hopefully he will go on to prove all the doubters wrong.

[texanwellfan]

Maybe there’s conditions to the two year deal that we don’t know about ? 

[Mio Krivokapic]

4 hours ago, weeyin said:

We'll find out if SK is a coaching genius, clueless or somewhere in between.

The backlash comes because every signing we've made over the last 3 or 4 seasons (or more) is immediately followed by posts of "useless" before a ball is kicked. 

From Porter to Higdon from O'Hara to Slattery. It's almost like some posters prefer failure so they can say "telt ye"

In general, whether a player is a success or not, it's likely a professional manager or coach is much better placed to make an assessment than pie munching punters like us who think winning at FIFA makes them Pep Guardiola. 

 

You certainly get the impression that being seen as "being right" on the internet is extremely important to some. Maybe it gives them a feeling of self importance or self worth, who knows 

[pretzel]

10 hours ago, David said:

And of course we need to deal with it, he's here, on a two-year fucking deal. But it doesn't mean we can't discuss how mental the deal is, especially on a football forum where that's what we do.

If you don't like it, go do something else. Or discuss something else in one of the other threads. But if people like me want to discuss this particular transfer, we will.

You're correct that it's great to have this forum to discuss all things Motherwell but your posts on the matter are coming across like you're having a bit of a meltdown over this particular transfer. Generally, you're a poster that seems quite reasonable but in this instance, it seems like you have made up your mind already that he's going to be a failure before he has even kicked a ball for us. Many seasoned Scottish footballers had stinking seasons by all accounts with St Johnstone last season one of which was highly regarded by us, I seem to remember Saints fans on Pie and Bovril moaning about Davidson deploying attacking-minded players in defensive roles last season. 

[bobbybingo]

11 hours ago, David said:

It seems fairly plausible that they bought him, then the manager thought "aw fuck, this guy is terrible" once he got a chance to see him in person. Which is why they ended his contract early and sent him packing. 

It's certainly possible. It's also possible that the manager bought him but couldn't help him improve his game or simply had no idea how to use him effectively. Which could be part of the reason they ended his contract early and sent him packing. Davidson, that is.

As we all know, any signing's a gamble, and we'll see how Kettlewell's recruitment has gone soon enough. Since it's his neck on the block, I doubt he finds this one as bizarre, ludicrous or dodgy as some on here.

[wellfan]

21 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

As we all know, any signing's a gamble, and we'll see how Kettlewell's recruitment has gone soon enough.

Pretty much this. And we must remember that Kettlewell is a relatively inexperienced 1st team manager, and he will likely make most of his significant rookie mistakes at Motherwell now.

I must admit, though, offering a 2-year deal to Bair does seem bizarre given his track record at his age and our desire to cut the wage bill and liabilities. As I said, this type of signing could prove to be Kettlewell's first ludicrous mistake, but he's earned the right to have a go with his 'project' for now.

[sinjy]

Bair got his contract cancelled at SJ. There would be a pay off to him to compensate for this season. Maybe we are paying him washers for the first year of his contract with us.