2023/24 ins & outs discussion

[bobbybingo]

8 minutes ago, wellfan said:

At least David Ferrère scored a hattrick. Etc. 

Try £100,000 on a guy who scored zero goals in 2 seasons.

[steelman1991]

2 hours ago, wellfan said:

My opinion is based on the fact that I was born in the mid-80s, meaning I've only ever known Motherwell in the top flight. I can see the view of older fans who think we would be better dropping down a division and doing well there. However, my opinion is that we are a top-division team who should be aiming for midtable every season, with the occasional cup run and Euro qualification every 5-10 years. I don't think that's asking for much when the other teams of a similar size around us are considered. 

Beyond that, I am asking for something better/different behind the scenes because it feels like we are rudderless and pissing money up the wall to fix continual (not occasional) mistakes at the moment. And this comes from a fan who vividly recalls the John Boyle and administration era, etc. I should, however, clarify that I am not seeking to shoot down the Well Society here. 

Anyone making comments of that nature are deluding themselves - while they were fun it was all for the purpose of attaining top flight status again. There is a reason the Dunfermline's and Falkirk's of this world want to get into the Premiership rather than spend any longer than they have to in the "seaside leagues".

[wellfan]

17 minutes ago, steelman1991 said:

Anyone making comments of that nature are deluding themselves - while they were fun it was all for the purpose of attaining top flight status again. There is a reason the Dunfermline's and Falkirk's of this world want to get into the Premiership rather than spend any longer than they have to in the "seaside leagues".

Yep, fair point. 

[wellfan]

32 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

Try £100,000 on a guy who scored zero goals in 2 seasons.

You do hold some grudges and that's fair enough. 

[David]

1 hour ago, bobbybingo said:

Out of curiosity, which clubs are you talking about?

Well, we see the likes of Brighton down south, and of course, they're a bigger club than Motherwell, but I think context is king there. Brighton, in comparison to the clubs they compete with, are similar to Motherwell in the Scottish Premier League.

The competition they have for talent, both in regard to personnel and players, is similar to what we face in our league. Namely, that they have much bigger clubs with much bigger budgets on their doorstep.

There are other examples further down the leagues down south as well. Sure, we don't have their finances, but we can certainly look at the systems and approaches they use and adapt them to suit our financial capabilities. Or at least try.

I mean, if you or anyone else is trying to tell me that the best we can do is the dross we're signing just now, then I think we'd need to agree to disagree.

I know there's always going to be an element of gambling on a signing at our level, and that's fine, but I highlighted the lack of quality in our signings at the start of the season, and I'm certainly no footballing expert. But if someone like me can look at the likes of Bair and Obika and ascertain that the odds are very much stacked against the latter maintaining fitness and the former even looking like a proper footballer, why can't the people being paid to do this at our club do the same?

It's just my opinion, but the way we've gone about our business this summer has been absolutely shambolic. It may be entirely a coincidence, but since Burrows left we've seen a steep decline I think.

The business in the window this summer was a farce. The fact that we're all putting our faith in a kid from Arsenal who had played 14 senior games when he arrived says it all.

For this reason, I'm not sure sacking the manager is the answer. The problem, for me, goes much higher. But it certainly does include him.

[bobbybingo]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

You do hold some grudges and that's fair enough. 

No idea what grudges you're referring to. I'm simply pointing out that 30 years ago, our then manager was allowed by our then board to spend 100K on an Aberdeen reserve forward who delivered not one single goal in his time here. He also brought in a very average midfielder from Kilmarnock for 350K that season. Neither of them excuses Kettlewell's summer recruitment, but it does give some perspective on how bafflingly shite signings are nothing new.

[bobbybingo]

32 minutes ago, David said:

Well, we see the likes of Brighton down south, and of course, they're a bigger club than Motherwell, but I think context is king there. Brighton, in comparison to the clubs they compete with, are similar to Motherwell in the Scottish Premier League.

The competition they have for talent, both in regard to personnel and players, is similar to what we face in our league. Namely, that they have much bigger clubs with much bigger budgets on their doorstep.

There are other examples further down the leagues down south as well. Sure, we don't have their finances, but we can certainly look at the systems and approaches they use and adapt them to suit our financial capabilities. Or at least try.

I mean, if you or anyone else is trying to tell me that the best we can do is the dross we're signing just now, then I think we'd need to agree to disagree.

I know there's always going to be an element of gambling on a signing at our level, and that's fine, but I highlighted the lack of quality in our signings at the start of the season, and I'm certainly no footballing expert. But if someone like me can look at the likes of Bair and Obika and ascertain that the odds are very much stacked against the latter maintaining fitness and the former even looking like a proper footballer, why can't the people being paid to do this at our club do the same?

It's just my opinion, but the way we've gone about our business this summer has been absolutely shambolic. It may be entirely a coincidence, but since Burrows left we've seen a steep decline I think.

The business in the window this summer was a farce. The fact that we're all putting our faith in a kid from Arsenal who had played 14 senior games when he arrived says it all.

For this reason, I'm not sure sacking the manager is the answer. The problem, for me, goes much higher. But it certainly does include him.

Your example of a smaller club than Motherwell is Brighton, which you acknowledge is a bigger club than us? Ok.

You can throw as much context at that as you like, but when they can spend 30 million quid on a single player, it's reasonable to assume he'll be half decent. What relation that has to our signing policy, I don't know. 

Is there a Scottish club you think is going about things the right way?

[joewarkfanclub]

AMEX have also invested £100m in Brighton. On top of the TV revenue they get every year and the European money they are now getting as a result of their success. Sure they have recruited shrewdly and could have pissed that against a wall like a load of other english clubs have over the years in search of success, but Im not sure how that helps us?

 

FWIW, I do agree we have seemed a bit rudderless recently, but I think thats been a bit longer than Alan Burrows departure. No idea what goes on behind closed doors, but we havent had whats looked like a structured transfer window for a long time now......

[grizzlyg]

3 hours ago, wellfan said:

You do hold some grudges and that's fair enough. 

4 hours ago, bobbybingo said:

Try £100,000 on a guy who scored zero goals in 2 seasons.

 

Still not as bad as McLeish paying £200,000 for John Hendry!!

[bobbybingo]

15 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Still not as bad as McLeish paying £200,000 for John Hendry!!

When you think of the way he burned through the Phil O'Donnell transfer fee, bringing so little value to the club in return, it was criminal. Stevie Kirk, Paul McGrillen plus £150,00 to Falkirk to land Eddie May - ludicrous.

[grizzlyg]

3 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

When you think of the way he burned through the Phil O'Donnell transfer fee, bringing so little value to the club in return, it was criminal. Stevie Kirk, Paul McGrillen plus £150,00 to Falkirk to land Eddie May - ludicrous.

And £350k for Shaun Mcskimming 

[bobbybingo]

23 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

And £350k for Shaun Mcskimming 

I remember thinking, we're paying 300 odd thousand for a player in the same league, and I don't really know who the guy is - that can't be a good sign.

[Spiderpig]

6 hours ago, wellfan said:

I think David nailed that in the first sentence of his response above. 

He never mentioned " balanced middle ground " you did so how do you see that applied to Motherwell, what would you have us do differently?  Signing better quality players we can't afford is not an answer, you don't get an Erling Haaland on the Theo Bair money we pay.

[wellfan]

4 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

He never mentioned " balanced middle ground " you did so how do you see that applied to Motherwell, what would you have us do differently?  Signing better quality players we can't afford is not an answer, you don't get an Erling Haaland on the Theo Bair money we pay.

Given the prescriptive and extreme nature of your response, I think you're beyond reason. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

9 hours ago, wellfan said:

My opinion is based on the fact that I was born in the mid-80s, meaning I've only ever known Motherwell in the top flight. I can see the view of older fans who think we would be better dropping down a division and doing well there. However, my opinion is that we are a top-division team who should be aiming for midtable every season, with the occasional cup run and Euro qualification every 5-10 years. I don't think that's asking for much when the other teams of a similar size around us are considered. 

Beyond that, I am asking for something better/different behind the scenes because it feels like we are rudderless and pissing money up the wall to fix continual (not occasional) mistakes at the moment. And this comes from a fan who vividly recalls the John Boyle and administration era, etc. I should, however, clarify that I am not seeking to shoot down the Well Society here. 

I lived through the relegation yo-yo years. I've always said going to watch football in the lower divisions is not as traumatic as some fans , who've known nothing else but top division football, think. Matchday experience is exactly the same emotions , same highs, same lows.  You really weren't aware of the different standard. You went to most games expecting to win. If we were unfortunate enough to be relegated Id still go to the football is just as enjoyable. That said any Motherwell fan saying relegation would be a good reset process is utterly delusional. Once you are out the top division you run a risk of staying there if you don't get back up in one season. The cycle then kicks in, lower budget, poorer players, less appealing for players to sign. Being a fan owned club with a piss poor support we'd almost certainly look at part time football with 3/4 seasons . We then become exactly like Dunfermline, Falkirk, Partick Thistle  - clubs of a similar size who cannot get out the lower divisions. Relegation is not good for the club in any way shape or form.

[FirParkCornerExile]

2 hours ago, bobbybingo said:

When you think of the way he burned through the Phil O'Donnell transfer fee, bringing so little value to the club in return, it was criminal. Stevie Kirk, Paul McGrillen plus £150,00 to Falkirk to land Eddie May - ludicrous.

McLeish was an absolute fanny, one of the biggest managerial mistake we we ever made. £1.75 million pissed away on absolute shite. I still shudder at the mention of that utter knob end Shaun McSkimming £350,000, Killie must have thought theyd won the lottery. 

[MJC]

I’m no fan of McLeish but he did play his part in Skippy Sunday by guiding his Rangers side to victory in their game at Easter Road so for that he gets a pass.

[wellfan]

8 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

I lived through the relegation yo-yo years. I've always said going to watch football in the lower divisions is not as traumatic as some fans , who've known nothing else but top division football, think. Matchday experience is exactly the same emotions , same highs, same lows.  You really weren't aware of the different standard. You went to most games expecting to win. If we were unfortunate enough to be relegated Id still go to the football is just as enjoyable. That said any Motherwell fan saying relegation would be a good reset process is utterly delusional. Once you are out the top division you run a risk of staying there if you don't get back up in one season. The cycle then kicks in, lower budget, poorer players, less appealing for players to sign. Being a fan owned club with a piss poor support we'd almost certainly look at part time football with 3/4 seasons . We then become exactly like Dunfermline, Falkirk, Partick Thistle  - clubs of a similar size who cannot get out the lower divisions. Relegation is not good for the club in any way shape or form.

I agree. 

[Spiderpig]

9 hours ago, wellfan said:

Given the prescriptive and extreme nature of your response, I think you're beyond reason. 

"Extreme response" ok then  🤦‍♂️but its Another dodged answer from you but if that's your opinion we'll leave it at that. 

[wellfan]

6 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

"Extreme response" ok then  🤦‍♂️but its Another dodged answer from you but if that's your opinion we'll leave it at that. 

When you start comparing Haaland and Bair, you've lost me. They're both extreme ends of the spectrum and all my posts on this have been about seeking a balance between the millionaire and complete pish spectrums. 

To answer the sensible part of your question, the different thing I would have us do is to not sign complete pish projects like Bair on a 2-year deal. Bair wasn't an unknown quantity to Kettlewell so he knew what he was getting, which was and is complete pish. Add Wilkinson and Shaw to that as well. And if you think we can't afford better quality than Bair, then I don't know what to say. 

Does this satisfy you? 

[wellsince75]

To @wellfans points I thought we were heading to the land of decency, long term stability at the end of last season. 

Getting rid of the complete dross , reducing squad sizes, bringing in youngsters, small squads with better quality. Playing simple football, doing the basics well.  

The issues that we have are 
1) clear vision and lack of exco members to run the club
2) we signed worse than we let go (hard to believe that was even possible) 
3) on the pitch lost our confidence and lost our way in doing basic things well. 

We should be a club be edging towards to top half of the league.  Importantly we should have clear vision and signs of being progressive, incrementally improving.

A well run club would indeed be around 6th and every few years have something better. 
 
We may be 80% there but need to address the points mentioned above to stop this 1x per year need to replace a manager, that really isn't solving the other 2 points. 

[mfc]

43 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

To @wellfans points I thought we were heading to the land of decency, long term stability at the end of last season. 

Getting rid of the complete dross , reducing squad sizes, bringing in youngsters, small squads with better quality. Playing simple football, doing the basics well.  

The issues that we have are 
1) clear vision and lack of exco members to run the club
2) we signed worse than we let go (hard to believe that was even possible) 
3) on the pitch lost our confidence and lost our way in doing basic things well. 

We should be a club be edging towards to top half of the league.  Importantly we should have clear vision and signs of being progressive, incrementally improving.

A well run club would indeed be around 6th and every few years have something better. 
 
We may be 80% there but need to address the points mentioned above to stop this 1x per year need to replace a manager, that really isn't solving the other 2 points. 

Good post,whatever is happening on the pitch sets the tone for the mood around the whole club,when things are going well,not a lot gets said about behind the scenes issues but it's the opposite when results on the pitch aren't going well.for me our biggest issue at the minute is recruitment,for the last 3 or 4 years there doesn't seem to be any plan,it feels like we're trying to grab anybody that's available and we always seem to end up with an unbalanced squad,that's heavy in numbers in certain areas and light in others.like you said we did some great work over the summer moving players on,to get the likes of lamie,shields and danzaki out the door who were all under contract was brilliant business but to then go and sign the guff that we did has been one step forward two back,to have re-signed obika and signed the likes of bair and wilkinson is a scandalous waste of funds.

[wellfan]

59 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

2) we signed worse than we let go (hard to believe that was even possible)

Precisely. 

[joewarkfanclub]

15 hours ago, bobbybingo said:

I remember thinking, we're paying 300 odd thousand for a player in the same league, and I don't really know who the guy is - that can't be a good sign.

McSkimming had actually been quite good at Kilmarnock and on the face of it felt like a natural replacement for Phil. Whether he was worth the transfer fee is another matter, and he obviously didnt live up to expectations, but I didnt think it was the wildest McLeish signing at the time. John Hendry and Andy Roddie were much worse.

[bobbybingo]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

McSkimming had actually been quite good at Kilmarnock and on the face of it felt like a natural replacement for Phil. Whether he was worth the transfer fee is another matter, and he obviously didnt live up to expectations, but I didnt think it was the wildest McLeish signing at the time. John Hendry and Andy Roddie were much worse.

He just seemed an unremarkable signing for that money. And you're right, Roddie & Hendry were remarkable signings for all the wrong reasons.