dennyc Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 35 minutes ago, wellfan said: With six days to go, Kettlewell is getting his excuses in already. Tick tock. Sounds nothing like an excuse, more like a touch of honesty and reality. Which is something fans usually cry out for. A clear and precise outline of our situation. You should be applauding that the Club is actively looking for a striker or two? That is unless you are in the minority determined to find fault with everything our Manager does or says. Not to say he hasn't made mistakes, but inventing grounds for having a go only detracts from any valid points you make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizoxy Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 I think Wilkinson left prior to the Biereth recall. It's a tricky one as well, he wanted to move closer to home, and while playing out the season with us may have made sense, as soon as another club is interested it would have been difficult to say no and risk having an unsettled player going through the motions during a relegation fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 19 minutes ago, Wellfan91 said: One must ask if we are struggling to bring a striker in, why did we let Wilkinson go in pursue of first team football? He would play every week between now and end of season if we fail to bring someone in this window. Granted he was rotten but better than nothing! Not sure that I totally agree with your last statement. “Better than nothing” is not always the case. Kind of like “no news is good news” not always the case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 25 Author Report Share Posted January 25 6 hours ago, Kmcalpin said: Surely you mean he asisted in 2 goals David? He didn't score at all. That's exactly what I meant. The price I pay for using my phone to mess about on a forum when I should be working 👀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 33 minutes ago, AllyMax said: Why don't you send him YOUR list of available strikers with the right pedigree and available within our budget. Either that or learn the differences between excuses an reality. Either that or just stop being a fud and STFU. 9 minutes ago, dennyc said: Sounds nothing like an excuse, more like a touch of honesty and reality. Which is something fans usually cry out for. A clear and precise outline of our situation. You should be applauding that the Club is actively looking for a striker or two? That is unless you are in the minority determined to find fault with everything our Manager does or says. Not to say he hasn't made mistakes, but inventing grounds for having a go only detracts from any valid points you make. To address both posts, I don’t know how many times I and others have to say this, but here it is again: We're in this position because he made an arse of the summer window in terms of strikers. He's the manager and it's on him. That's my view and others can have their view, but if some people want to call me a fud then they've lost the debate. He resigned Obika knowing fine well that we was an injury risk. Poor recruitment. He signed Wilkinson, who contributed little and is now gone. Poor recruitment He signed Shaw, who contributed nothing and is now gone. Poor recruitment. He signed Biereth, which is his only good bit of business, but it's risky business to end up in the position of having to rely on loanees, and he's now gone. He signed Bair, who everyone knew had a poor record in front of goal. Poor recruitment. He put Tierney out on loan and released McKinstry, and didn't replace them, effectively meaning we could only play one style as he settled on having no number 10s or wingers. This may have been a budget decision, however. I could go on, but there's no point. The outcome of all of this is that we're 2 days away from our first league game after the window and we currently only have one recognised first-team striker, and that player was signed as a long-term project, who was likely set to be 3rd or 4th choice at that time. We're in the Premiership FFS; this is a ridiculous position to be in. Yes, he's been good at moving players on, but he wouldn't have to move players on if he didn't make errors of judgement in signing them in the first place. Yes, he's been stung by injuries to Obika, but he should've known that would happen and not signed him again. All told, perhaps some holding his hands up instead of making the usual excuses wouldn't go amiss. That would be the honesty and ownership that I want. Such behaviour draws respect and suggests an individual is capable of learning from their experiences and mistakes. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizoxy Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 Tierney's legs are made of wet toilet paper tubes. Must be a name thing. It's a shame because I liked him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 1 hour ago, wellfan said: He signed Bair, who everyone knew had a poor record in front of goal. Poor recruitment. Bair's previous record again? In the here and now, could you list the non Old Firm players signed this summer who have scored more goals than him? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 18 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: Bair's previous record again? In the here and now, could you list the non Old Firm players signed this summer who have scored more goals than him? Not a comment either way on your post, just the info requested. Bair is 11th top scorer. There are 4 non old firm players above him and on of those 4 is Biereth on 6 goals versus Bair’s 5 goals. one is shankland and the other two are Aberdeen players. McGrath (6) and Miovski (10) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 18 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: Bair's previous record again? In the here and now, could you list the non Old Firm players signed this summer who have scored more goals than him? Bair's goal-scoring record before signing for us was (I think) 8 in 95. But, if we're content to use Bair as our yardstick for success now, that is a quick race to the bottom. To see how he stacks up this season, see here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premiership/top-scorers However, to address your point with another point, other non-old firm clubs will have signed players this summer who have scored less than Bair, but those clubs will also have more than just him as their sole fit and available striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 Bair's a bit like Danny Johnson in that unless he's scoring he's not really doing anything for you. He's got no striker's instinct to move for the ball and his touch is horrific. The one in the second half on Saturday where SOD played a nice pass into him and he completely missed the ball sums him up. If the ball is in front of him and he's pointing in the correct direction he's got a bit of threat but playing up top alone is well beyond his capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 4 minutes ago, texanwellfan said: Not a comment either way on your post, just the info requested. Bair is 11th top scorer. There are 4 non old firm players above him and on of those 4 is Biereth on 6 goals versus Bair’s 5 goals. In the league, I count 3 non Old Firm players above him - Shanland at Hearts, Miovski and McGrath at Aberdeen. Who do you have as the 4th? The comment I replied to specifically referred to our summer recruitment. The only one of the guys I've listed who was signed during that window is McGrath, so I think we've done ok so far with Bair. Maybe folk expect us to sign better players than Celtic, Rangers, Hearts or Aberdeen. Fair enough. If I was criticising Kettlewell there are certainly sticks to beat him with - Bair isn't one of them, unless your argument chooses to ignore the number of goals he's scored this season and focus solely on his lack of them elsewhere in previous years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 48 minutes ago, wellfan said: To address both posts, I don’t know how many times I and others have to say this, but here it is again: We're in this position because he made an arse of the summer window in terms of strikers. He's the manager and it's on him. That's my view and others can have their view, but if some people want to call me a fud then they've lost the debate. He resigned Obika knowing fine well that we was an injury risk. Poor recruitment. He signed Wilkinson, who contributed little and is now gone. Poor recruitment He signed Shaw, who contributed nothing and is now gone. Poor recruitment. He signed Biereth, which is his only good bit of business, but it's risky business to end up in the position of having to rely on loanees, and he's now gone. He signed Bair, who everyone knew had a poor record in front of goal. Poor recruitment. He put Tierney out on loan and released McKinstry, and didn't replace them, effectively meaning we could only play one style as he settled on having no number 10s or wingers. This may have been a budget decision, however. I could go on, but there's no point. The outcome of all of this is that we're 2 days away from our first league game after the window and we currently only have one recognised first-team striker, and that player was signed as a long-term project, who was likely set to be 3rd or 4th choice at that time. We're in the Premiership FFS; this is a ridiculous position to be in. Yes, he's been good at moving players on, but he wouldn't have to move players on if he didn't make errors of judgement in signing them in the first place. Yes, he's been stung by injuries to Obika, but he should've known that would happen and not signed him again. All told, perhaps some holding his hands up instead of making the usual excuses wouldn't go amiss. That would be the honesty and ownership that I want. Such behaviour draws respect and suggests an individual is capable of learning from their experiences and mistakes. Shaw and Wilkinson looked like decent signings and very few, if any, raised questions at the time. Even "those others" you refer to. They were signed based on playing history and the financial market we operate in. Both have moved on as you say, for different reasons. Shaw was nothing like the youngster that featured for Hibs and Wilkinson was unsettled. But were they worth a try? I think they were. Bair and Obika I tend to agree should not have been signed, but each has shown glimpses that not all is lost. I repeat, I would not have taken a risk on either. Biereth is the quality of youngster we just cannot afford to sign on a full contract basis. So, when the opportunity of a Loan placement comes up, are we to decline the offer on the basis we just don't like Loans? For a while Biereth was the Messiah and his loan status was not a factor. Did you raise it as an error back then? Also it is perfectly clear to anyone willing to open their eyes that Arsenal did the dirty on us. How do you plan for that? In case you haven't noticed, the bulk of deals done in the January window are on a loan basis, even involving Clubs with a lot more financial resources than we have. But ok, we can just ignore that market and sign lesser players on longer contracts. Bair mark 2 perhaps. Tierney and McKinstrey were a waste of a much needed wage and had no future at Motherwell. Although they were fan favourites each failed to take any starting opportunities they were given, flattering to deceive in substitute appearances. That's the reality of why they left. Several Managers formed that same opinion, not just Kettlewell. That also applies to others that were moved on. Kettlewell's signings in this window and his set up against Alloa suggest he is aware of the need for better attacking width. Nicholson often played as a winger for Hearts and Elliott is described as a pacy attacking wing back. Montgomery seemed comfortable going forward and Gent certainly benefited from starting in an advanced position. So, for me, that is a manager recognising where improvement is needed. So, for now, I hope we stick with him. Season end is the time for his future to be assessed. And no doubt his recent signings will be a factor one way or another. Not in response to your post alone, but it is clear there are fans out there desperate for Kettlewell to fail and so prove them right..........no matter the implications of that failure. Scrutinising every word to find fault but going quiet when things go well or a signing looks promising. Several players appear to be up against the same barrier. Sad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 12 minutes ago, wellfan said: Bair's goal-scoring record before signing for us was (I think) 8 in 95. But, if we're content to use Bair as our yardstick for success now, that is a quick race to the bottom. To see how he stacks up this season, see here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premiership/top-scorers However, to address your point with another point, other non-old firm clubs will have signed players this summer who have scored less than Bair, but those clubs will also have more than just him as their sole fit and available striker. His previous record means nothing to us now, and the fact he is our sole fit and available striker tells us absolutely nothing about him. He's a striker who is scoring goals. I thought that's what we're looking for right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 4 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: His previous record means nothing to us now, and the fact he is our sole fit and available striker tells us absolutely nothing about him. He's a striker who is scoring goals. I thought that's what we're looking for right now? As I said above, if we’re content to settle for the likes of Bair, we’re screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 13 minutes ago, dennyc said: Biereth is the quality of youngster we just cannot afford to sign on a full contract basis. So, when the opportunity of a Loan placement comes up, are we to decline the offer on the basis we just don't like Loans? For a while Biereth was the Messiah and his loan status was not a factor. Did you raise it as an error back then? Also it is perfectly clear to anyone willing to open their eyes that Arsenal did the dirty on us. How do you plan for that? In case you haven't noticed, the bulk of deals done in the January window are on a loan basis, even involving Clubs with a lot more financial resources than we have. But ok, we can just ignore that market and sign lesser players on longer contracts. Bair mark 2 perhaps. I've already addressed some of those points here: https://www.steelmenonline.co.uk/forums/topic/18449-202324-ins-outs-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=632655 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 27 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: In the league, I count 3 non Old Firm players above him - Shanland at Hearts, Miovski and McGrath at Aberdeen. Who do you have as the 4th? The comment I replied to specifically referred to our summer recruitment. The only one of the guys I've listed who was signed during that window is McGrath, so I think we've done ok so far with Bair. Maybe folk expect us to sign better players than Celtic, Rangers, Hearts or Aberdeen. Fair enough. If I was criticising Kettlewell there are certainly sticks to beat him with - Bair isn't one of them, unless your argument chooses to ignore the number of goals he's scored this season and focus solely on his lack of them elsewhere in previous years. 4th was Mika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Balls of Shire Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 35 minutes ago, wellfan said: Bair's goal-scoring record before signing for us was (I think) 8 in 95. But, if we're content to use Bair as our yardstick for success now, that is a quick race to the bottom. To see how he stacks up this season, see here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premiership/top-scorers However, to address your point with another point, other non-old firm clubs will have signed players this summer who have scored less than Bair, but those clubs will also have more than just him as their sole fit and available striker. Is the new guy Nicholson not a front man. Scored a good few goals in hearts career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizoxy Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 Nicholson is mainly a winger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 Chilokoa-Mullen from Leeds who has been impressive for Scotland u21s has signed on loan for ICT. He could have done a job for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 6 minutes ago, texanwellfan said: 4th was Mika Ah, right. Two of our strikers on that list doesn't sound too catastrophic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 6 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said: Is the new guy Nicholson not a front man. Scored a good few goals in hearts career He's definitely in the forward category on our website squad list. As others note, however, he's played mainly as an attack-minded left midfielder/winger. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/sam-nicholson/profil/spieler/169573 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 24 minutes ago, wellfan said: As I said above, if we’re content to settle for the likes of Bair, we’re screwed. He's no main striker, but he is a striker who's scoring goals and a player who's giving his all, so I'm fine with him being here for now. I'll judge him at the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 12 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: He's no main striker, but he is a striker who's scoring goals and a player who's giving his all, so I'm fine with him being here for now. I'll judge him at the end of the season. I'll see you here again in May. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzyB Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 3 hours ago, AllyMax said: Why don't you send him YOUR list of available strikers with the right pedigree and available within our budget. I'm not getting involved in the specific debate about Bair any more because the truth is I'm tired of debating people who think that signing panic buys are okay or 15 game winless runs are acceptable or the eye bleeding football we've seen most of this season is "the best football we've seen in years", but just want to point out this response is very unfair. It's not us fans' job to find January targets, it's the fucking manager's job. We can be upset with the lack of signings or the quality of them without being able to draw up a list of potential targets ourselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 20 minutes ago, GazzyB said: I'm not getting involved in the specific debate about Bair any more because the truth is I'm tired of debating people who think that signing panic buys are okay or 15 game winless runs are acceptable or the eye bleeding football we've seen most of this season is "the best football we've seen in years", but just want to point out this response is very unfair. It's not us fans' job to find January targets, it's the fucking manager's job. We can be upset with the lack of signings or the quality of them without being able to draw up a list of potential targets ourselves. True. It's not the fans' job to pick teams or decide on tactics either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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