2023/24 ins & outs discussion

[joewarkfanclub]

I can see both sides of the debate.

I think there will always be a risk attached to the players we are able to sign. But that being the case we need to be even more careful with the money we do spend.

We cant afford to be wasteful with just throwing enough shit at the wall that some sticks.

Just look at the last transfer window. No one would argue that we werent in big trouble, but we signed 9 players. 

Blaney, Butcher, Casey, Furlong, Aitchison, Mandron, Obika, Crankshaw, Danzaki.

How many actually contributed in changing the course of our season?

Obviously Hammell got emptied just after we signed all these players, so thats a factor. But realistically Aitchison, Crankshaw and Danzaki offered nothing. Obika was injured for most of it and Blaney only played towards the end when Butcher got injured.

Its difficult right now because we are still dealing with the damage of having had 3 managers in one season and sorting out all the contractual situations. But we need to be running a smaller squad of better quality suplemented by good youth players to make a significant impact on the league.

I still think we can have a good season, but it will be in spite of our current position not because of it.

[David]

Just now, dennyc said:

The concern is the repeated erosion in the quality of the squad year on year. That has been going on for some considerable time.

In my opinion, this is due, at least in part, to the rising prices and wages footballers are getting nowadays, especially down south. While we aren't directly connected with the English game, we're at a distinct disadvantage in that we're literally a few hours drive from England. Any decent player who is looking at us will also be looking down south.

We've been fighting against the current of rising transfer fees and rising wages being paid to very ordinary players for years now.

Just now, dennyc said:

I have no doubt more players will be brought in before the window closes. But given that the KVV monies were quoted by the Board as " securing our mid to long term future" and given comments that players we wished to retain were offered deals elsewhere that we chose not to match, I do not anticipate we will be anywhere near the side we were at the end of last season.

I didn't anticipate us being anywhere near the quality of side were were at the end of last season literally weeks before we became that side! How many fans saw our January signings and thought "perfect, now we can go on a terrific run of results"?

We could just as easily bring in some players this summer in the final weeks leading up to the window closing and find that they gel together really well and we've signed a few players at the right time and play them in the right system and see us go on to crack into the top six early on.

There's a ton of luck involved at our level, and it really does make the difference. 

[grizzlyg]

Every signing is a gamble, where I have concerns is when we have given extended contracts to players who in my opinion were never good enough to warrant an extension, Carroll and McGinley being 2 obvious ones that spring to mind and fact we actively tried to sign Mandron on a contract was concerning.

[wellsince75]

5 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Every signing is a gamble, where I have concerns is when we have given extended contracts to players who in my opinion were never good enough to warrant an extension, Carroll and McGinley being 2 obvious ones that spring to mind and fact we actively tried to sign Mandron on a contract was concerning.

completely with you on this, incredibly frustrating. Can add S'OD, Mugabi, Maguire to that list.  

[grizzlyg]

3 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

completely with you on this, incredibly frustrating. Can add S'OD, Mugabi, Maguire to that list.  

SOD I was ok with but Mugabi and Maguire definitely.  Have said before that big Bevis is an absolute diamond and the kinda guy you want to succeed but tbh just isn't good enough, last game of season v utd said it all 

[joewarkfanclub]

16 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Every signing is a gamble, where I have concerns is when we have given extended contracts to players who in my opinion were never good enough to warrant an extension, Carroll and McGinley being 2 obvious ones that spring to mind and fact we actively tried to sign Mandron on a contract was concerning.

Again subtle messaging from SK.

He never said we tried to sign him.

Im paraphrasing, but he said, "he is the kind of character I love to have in our dressing room, but we werent able to make an offer to Mikel that would encourage him to stay."

You can take them to mean the same thing, or you could also interpret it to say, " we only had enough money to sign 1 big guy to lead the line and hold the ball up so we signed Obika".

[Coatsy]

2 hours ago, David said:

I'll say this, for a club that has supposedly brought in "for the most part, at least five years of terrible close season signings" we've done not too badly during that period.

We've finished 7th, 5th, 8th, 3rd, and 8th again in that five year period. We've also reached Europe twice. 

But I guess those seasons accomplishments are mainly down to other teams being terrible and us "getting away with it" and being lucky, right? Absolutely nothing to do with the players we've brought in.

The truth is, a club of our financial standing is very rarely going to be able to recruit players who can be considered a safe bet to succeed. We just aren't in that financial position. Most of our signings are going to be a risk.

But, we've managed to unearth some real finds during that period as well. 

Good Sensible Post 

[David]

Just now, grizzlyg said:

Every signing is a gamble, where I have concerns is when we have given extended contracts to players who in my opinion were never good enough to warrant an extension, Carroll and McGinley being 2 obvious ones that spring to mind and fact we actively tried to sign Mandron on a contract was concerning.

I shared those concerns as well when it came to McGinley, but that is down to the manager. And if the club is going to appoint him, they need to trust his judgement on which players he would like to offer contracts to. 

What I would say in the clubs defence is that this is a squad game, and while we'd all love for every player on our first team books to be first-team, regular pick level, that simply cannot be the case.

Guys like McGinley, Carroll, and even Shields and Maguire for that matter are squad players. We need to ask how many high quality players are going to be happy coming to Motherwell and playing back up? Not many. So if we find someone who is a good professional, not going to spit the dummy if they don't play, and who will happily come in when required we need to realise that they perhaps have a role to play at the club.

[Spiderpig]

On 7/11/2023 at 2:26 PM, weeyin said:

This is what we're competing against with players like Johnston
 

For all this talk about "protecting our investment" you know his agent was telling him "just wait and I'll guarantee you a big move"

Just been listening to SK on the Scottish football podcast and he as good as said not offering Johnston a new contract before he was sent out on loan to Cove was a big mistake, by the previous management regime, before there was any interest in the player that would have protected the clubs investment. I hope the people running the club now are learning from all of these expensive mistakes we seem to keep making.

[David]

Just now, Spiderpig said:

Just been listening to SK on the Scottish football podcast and he as good as said not offering Johnston a new contract before he was sent out on loan to Cove was a big mistake, by the previous management regime, before there was any interest in the player that would have protected the clubs investment. I hope the people running the club now are learning from all of these expensive mistakes we seem to keep making.

It's also worth remembering that even if we had offered him a contract, there's no guarantee he would have signed it. 

It's not as if he suddenly became good. His dad and agent would have known his talent levels, and would likely know that once he got a chance to show how good he was, the offers would be there.

Offers which may not have been there had a sizeable transfer fee been required. 

[Spiderpig]

30 minutes ago, David said:

It's also worth remembering that even if we had offered him a contract, there's no guarantee he would have signed it. 

It's not as if he suddenly became good. His dad and agent would have known his talent levels, and would likely know that once he got a chance to show how good he was, the offers would be there.

Offers which may not have been there had a sizeable transfer fee been required. 

That's fair comment re signing the new contract and we would still be where we are now, but it still should have been offered, recognising potential in our Academy players and maximising the fees generated when they inevitably move on is something we have not been particularly good at over the years, except maybe Turnbull. It's something the club could improve on, but I get the impression that the current board are not as financially astute as they could be on matters like that.

[David]

Just now, Spiderpig said:

That's fair comment re signing the new contract and we would still be where we are now, but it still should have been offered, recognising potential in our Academy players and maximising the fees generated when they inevitably move on is something we have not been particularly good at over the years, except maybe Turnbull. It's something the club could improve on, but I get the impression that the current board are not as financially astute as they could be on matters like that.

100% agree.

[Ya Bezzer!]

3 hours ago, David said:

I'll say this, for a club that has supposedly brought in "for the most part, at least five years of terrible close season signings" we've done not too badly during that period.

Lucky we had a youth system that got us out of a hole so many times.

Turnbull coming in and Scott going out are good examples of each type of scenario where it's turned the club around mid season.

And if you go through all those league place finishes, they don't tell the whole story.  We finished 3rd in atrocious form that was mirrored the next season and saw the manager lose his job.  At least two season saw near miraculous new manager bounce happen when Alexander and Kettlewell came in. Plenty here were predicting relegation on both occasions.

The point is that it becomes harder and harder every season to replace a certain standard of player.

I know some here weren't fans of Goss, but I was and I would be amazed for instance if we manage to bring players in from the market that like for like match Van Veen, Goss and Johnston last season.

We are likely to be a weaker team next season,  measured against ourselves, unless we pull of some transfer market miracles or one of the youth players do something.

How that stacks up against the competition remains to be seen.  

[mfc]

2 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

That's fair comment re signing the new contract and we would still be where we are now, but it still should have been offered, recognising potential in our Academy players and maximising the fees generated when they inevitably move on is something we have not been particularly good at over the years, except maybe Turnbull. It's something the club could improve on, but I get the impression that the current board are not as financially astute as they could be on matters like that.

I totally agree with that,johnstone was highly rated by folk behind the scenes for a while,none more so than hammell,to not have tried to tie him up on a new deal before now has bit us on the arse,if we're happy to bring a Japanese player over from australia on a 3 year deal then we should be making every effort to get our young players tied up especially when the club is talking them up as having potential.kettlewell seems to be pissed off that johnstone is off and all we will get is compensation,were not always going to get our young players to stay but hopefully we have learned a lesson here.

[David]

Just now, Ya Bezzer! said:

Lucky we had a youth system that got us out of a hole so many times.

Why is that lucky? Isn't that down to good planning, coaching, and spotting of talent?

Just now, Ya Bezzer! said:

And if you go through all those league place finishes, they don't tell the whole story. 

They tell the only story we need to worry about though. Lucky for us, predictions of relegation from pundits or fans means absolutely hee haw when it comes to what actually happens.

The fact is, over the course of those seasons we put more points on the board than the teams below us. That's all that matters.

Just now, Ya Bezzer! said:

We are likely to be a weaker team next season,  measured against ourselves, unless we pull of some transfer market miracles or one of the youth players do something.

You don't know that though. When we signed Van Veen very few on here were excited by his goalscoring record. When we signed Watt no one really thought it would amount to much. 

The truth is, we'll do what every other team outside the top five city sides do every season and work with what we have, make some signings, and see what happens. 

Some of those signings will be utter gash, but I guarantee you, if we revisit this conversation in a season or two we'll be having the exact same discussion about how we will be unlikely to replace X,Y or Z who have come in post-Van Veen and done a good job for us.

[wellsince75]

re Johnston I don't see an outcome that the club would have won or been able to tie him into a contract. 

He came through the ranks and got some first team exposure. He went out on loan came back, still wasn't ready . Went out again and came back ready.   

So with captain hindsight goggles the narrative is the boy needs to sign an extended contract with us or we don't let him go out on loan.  Really, why would he do that ? He could still sit tight and leave or asked to be released early.  He had very good football people around him who knew exactly how to look after Max J. 

I struggle to see how we'd have been able to force his hand on this one, particularly without repetitional damage.    

It's overly easy to criticise the club. When all said and done we've got a pretty decent wedge for a guy who played a dozen games.   He may go on to the next big thing , he may not. When all said and done it's another example of us producing a promising youngster, which works nicely for our model long term.

[gaz7]

1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

That's fair comment re signing the new contract and we would still be where we are now, but it still should have been offered, recognising potential in our Academy players and maximising the fees generated when they inevitably move on is something we have not been particularly good at over the years, except maybe Turnbull. It's something the club could improve on, but I get the impression that the current board are not as financially astute as they could be on matters like that.

Think that's harsh on board and im sure contract was offered. If you look at any club in Scotland im sure we do as good or better than most in bringinging in funds for our youth so the slight on board is easy to make i dont believeits true..As has been said by others max's dad would have had huge impact on his decision and I feel he was never going to sign new deal. He is going to sturm graz maybe for seemingly 10k a week but if he hadn't played last 13 games of season for us he would likely still have been able to get a better contract than we would have offered at an epl 1 or 2 club. Dean Cornelius is away to Harrogate Town and I'm sure max johnston would have got similar as a minimum. 

[MelvinBragg]

5 minutes ago, gaz7 said:

Think that's harsh on board and im sure contract was offered. If you look at any club in Scotland im sure we do as good or better than most in bringinging in funds for our youth so the slight on board is easy to make i dont believeits true..As has been said by others max's dad would have had huge impact on his decision and I feel he was never going to sign new deal. He is going to sturm graz maybe for seemingly 10k a week but if he hadn't played last 13 games of season for us he would likely still have been able to get a better contract than we would have offered at an epl 1 or 2 club. Dean Cornelius is away to Harrogate Town and I'm sure max johnston would have got similar as a minimum. 

Indeed. Someone on here used a story from March last year in the Record (I think) mooting interest from Sheffield United and West Ham as evidence we should have offered him a contract last summer. For me, that story is evidence that there was no point in offering him a contract last summer as he would have known better offers were forthcoming...

EDIT Checked back. It was Luton not West Ham, but the general point still holds...

[AllyMax]

35 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

re Johnston I don't see an outcome that the club would have won or been able to tie him into a contract. 

He came through the ranks and got some first team exposure. He went out on loan came back, still wasn't ready . Went out again and came back ready.   

So with captain hindsight goggles the narrative is the boy needs to sign an extended contract with us or we don't let him go out on loan.  Really, why would he do that ? He could still sit tight and leave or asked to be released early.  He had very good football people around him who knew exactly how to look after Max J. 

I struggle to see how we'd have been able to force his hand on this one, particularly without repetitional damage.    

It's overly easy to criticise the club. When all said and done we've got a pretty decent wedge for a guy who played a dozen games.   He may go on to the next big thing , he may not. When all said and done it's another example of us producing a promising youngster, which works nicely for our model long term.

This ^^

Anone who seriously thinks we could somehow have 'forced' Max into signing an extended contract is seriously deluded. Some players see playing first team football in the SPL as a good development route to future, bigger moves, some see going to a bigger team with more money (with the possibility of never actually playing first team football). If a player believes the latter, there is little or nothing could be done to change their mind (or that of the people advising them). Not exactly been a golden route forward for Hastie, Erwin or McKinstry, has it ? 

[joewarkfanclub]

There is the other side of the coin to consider as well.

Some of our fans have lost their heads over giving extended contracts to some of our youth players who didnt progress as we would have liked.

Maguire is the most obvious example. There have been others.

Given Max had only played a couple of first team games before he went to Cove, it could still have been considered a bit of a risk to offer him extended terms good enough to get him to sign.

Take Hastie as an example.

Went out to Alloa, had a good loan, came back, had a purple patch, left for a development fee and has done nothing since.

[Onthefringes]

Far too many variables in emerging talent. Protecting the club interests is wholly different to the ‘can’t force anyone to sign’ theory of some.

On Maguire, his last contract award was the issue. At the magic age around his 22nd birthday in development terms, we’ve offered security and it certainly hasn’t worked for both parties with a career stalling. Some have scoffed at another recently who wanted to challenge that outlook.

Doubt I’ll be the only one of the opinion that it wasn’t a risk to offer him extended terms good enough to get him to sign - he was highly regarded as the next big thing even when Turnbull was still cleaning the boots of senior players.

Simply put, we’ve paid lip service to our player pathway for too long. Understand we drop development players in and out and there’s a plethora of reasons for doing so. Also well aware the approach doesn’t favour each and every prospect but, being allowed to make and learn from mistakes around the first team environment let Hibs with Doig and Aberdeen with the kid who folded twice in front of the East Stand realise multi million pound transfer fees - those who seen them in development (bearing in mind he can play either flank) would agree our player was better than both.

Feel Kettlewell has alluded to this in pre-season and last weeks’ interview. More power to him if he progresses on that front.

[Malky]

Josh Morris has left, played for MK Dons the other night as a trialist. Graham Alexander is the manager.

What a suprise.

[Coatsy]

Interesting looks like an attitude problem as well away

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=128224726948454

Another article no cost to club so all good

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/motherwell-havent-made-loss-riku-30456846?fbclid=IwAR0Ab9IXuvrAooWkWkdlKLU3c1KxbxkjDilTPNBe9WSDbxI11bDA6pAKb-M

 

 

[steelboy]

21 minutes ago, Coatsy said:

Interesting looks like an attitude problem as well away

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=128224726948454

Another article no cost to club so all good

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/motherwell-havent-made-loss-riku-30456846?fbclid=IwAR0Ab9IXuvrAooWkWkdlKLU3c1KxbxkjDilTPNBe9WSDbxI11bDA6pAKb-M

 

 

Obviously whatever money he was due from the club wasn't enough to make living in Hamilton worth it. 

 

 

[MJC]

2 hours ago, Coatsy said:

Interesting looks like an attitude problem as well away

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=128224726948454

Another article no cost to club so all good

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/motherwell-havent-made-loss-riku-30456846?fbclid=IwAR0Ab9IXuvrAooWkWkdlKLU3c1KxbxkjDilTPNBe9WSDbxI11bDA6pAKb-M

 

 

Tough talking stuff there from the boss and he’s obviously not afraid to get rid of players just stealing a wage if he has to/if he can.