2023/24 ins & outs discussion

[stv]

3 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Apparently we made a bid to get KVV .We offered money and Ollie Shaw. It was rejected Gronigen wanted Money and a Lucky Bag.

Mair chance of getting something good out of the lucky bag.

[Mad Dog]

3 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Apparently we made a bid to get KVV .We offered money and Ollie Shaw. It was rejected Gronigen wanted Money and a Lucky Bag.

How could we offer Oli Shaw when he's not our player?

[bobbybingo]

1 hour ago, Mad Dog said:

How could we offer Oli Shaw when he's not our player?

Because Barnsley got kicked out the FA Cup for signing an ineffectual player, or something.

[David]

4 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

How could we offer Oli Shaw when he's not our player?

I assume the OP was joking. 

[wellfan]

To be clear, I'd be delighted if KVV returned to save our season, again.

However, it would be an admission that Kettlewell has failed (in particular, with his recruitment) and that the Board was having to splash the cash again to bail us out of a hole of their making, again.

This reactive cycle can't go on; we need a drastic shake-up behind the scenes, with the outcome being a proactive, forward-thinking and ambitious club. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

20 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

How could we offer Oli Shaw when he's not our player?

I guess the concept of humour is lost on you.

[FirParkCornerExile]

16 hours ago, David said:

I assume the OP was joking. 

I was indeed. Glad someone got it.

[Kris-A-Goalda]

45 minutes ago, wellfan said:

To be clear, I'd be delighted if KVV returned to save our season, again.

However, it would be an admission that Kettlewell has failed (in particular, with his recruitment) and that the Board was having to splash the cash again to bail us out of a hole of their making, again.

This reactive cycle can't go on; we need a drastic shake-up behind the scenes, with the outcome being a proactive, forward-thinking and ambitious club. 

To get out of the mire we're in and become a proactive, forward-thinking and ambitious club, we need to be prepared for, and accepting of, failures on the path to getting it right. If there was an affordable way of having someone come in with a magic wand and righting the ship immediately, we'd surely be en route to that already. 

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, Kris-A-Goalda said:

To get out of the mire we're in and become a proactive, forward-thinking and ambitious club, we need to be prepared for, and accepting of, failures on the path to getting it right. If there was an affordable way of having someone come in with a magic wand and righting the ship immediately, we'd surely be en route to that already. 

Perhaps. However, in the absence of the magic wand solution, I'd like to see the balance swing from the reactive to the proactive, as there's been too much of the former these past few years. 

[bobbybingo]

28 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Perhaps. However, in the absence of the magic wand solution, I'd like to see the balance swing from the reactive to the proactive, as there's been too much of the former these past few years. 

By proactive, I take it you mean appoint the right manager and sign the right players at the first time of asking, not when things have gone wrong? If it is, how do they go about doing that?

[wellfan]

18 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

By proactive, I take it you mean appoint the right manager and sign the right players at the first time of asking, not when things have gone wrong? If it is, how do they go about doing that?

I'm talking more about behind-the-scenes. If we get that right, we may have better luck with managerial appointments and signings. 

[bobbybingo]

19 minutes ago, wellfan said:

I'm talking more about behind-the-scenes. If we get that right, we may have better luck with managerial appointments and signings. 

Has anyone any idea who the right people are or where they can be found? A new CEO would be appointed by the folk who are already there, and you obviously don't trust them with that job. Crowds aren't gonnae go up, so if they want to aim higher with managerial appointments and signings they'll need to find money elsewhere, which surely means finding an individual or group with the capability and desire to fund their ambitions. I don't think that's likely, to put it mildly.

[wellfan]

26 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

Has anyone any idea who the right people are or where they can be found?

I don't, but somebody will, and we need that somebody soon, be it a CEO appointment by the current Board or a complete regime change. Moreover, I'm of the view that your argument quoted above is defeatist and stifles aspiration. That is, just because we don't know who/what that is yet doesn't mean we can't push for change. And it may well backfire, but here we are. 

30 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

Crowds aren't gonnae go up

Is that a fact, or is it a defeatist attitude because we Motherwell fans are so used to accepting the mediocrity of being a wee family club that occasionally punches above its weight? In the end, you become what you accept. 

36 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

I don't think that's likely, to put it mildly.

I do not want to argue here, I'm merely pointing out that I wish we would aspire for something better/different, as continuing in the same way of the past few years will not be sustainable.  As Kris-A-Goalda alluded to above, I do think we are prepared to accept failures on the way to achieving something more balanced, but the balance is currently off due to the constant mistakes and subsequent reactive decisions of the past few years. That suggests a regime with no clear long-term thinking in its decision-making processes, or a regime incapable of such vision due to us being skint(?).

[bobbybingo]

51 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Is that a fact, or is it a defeatist attitude because we Motherwell fans are so used to accepting the mediocrity of being a wee family club that occasionally punches above its weight? In the end, you become what you accept. 

I suspect it's an unfortunate fact. They might have been slightly higher during periods when we were doing well, but not that much higher. If success on the field doesn't attract more punters, what would?

I'm no looking for an argument either. We all want our club to achieve as much as it can and I don't think we should accept endless mediocrity. But we have the fan base we have had for a long, long time, which does limit clubs, unless they have a rich benefactor (and we've all see what happens when they lose interest).

I'll ask the same question I've asked before on this subject: when you look at the entire history of Motherwell FC, do you believe we are underachieving by staying in the top division for nearly 40 years, finishing in the top 6 reasonably regularly, reaching several cup finals and qualifying for Europe? If you think we should be doing more than that, I'd be interested to hear what that would mean for you.

[wellfan]

6 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

I'll ask the same question I've asked before on this subject: when you look at the entire history of Motherwell FC, do you believe we are underachieving by staying in the top division for nearly 40 years, finishing in the top 6 reasonably regularly, reaching several cup finals and qualifying for Europe? If you think we should be doing more than that, I'd be interested to hear what that would mean for you.

My opinion is based on the fact that I was born in the mid-80s, meaning I've only ever known Motherwell in the top flight. I can see the view of older fans who think we would be better dropping down a division and doing well there. However, my opinion is that we are a top-division team who should be aiming for midtable every season, with the occasional cup run and Euro qualification every 5-10 years. I don't think that's asking for much when the other teams of a similar size around us are considered. 

Beyond that, I am asking for something better/different behind the scenes because it feels like we are rudderless and pissing money up the wall to fix continual (not occasional) mistakes at the moment. And this comes from a fan who vividly recalls the John Boyle and administration era, etc. I should, however, clarify that I am not seeking to shoot down the Well Society here. 

[Spiderpig]

5 hours ago, wellfan said:

 

This reactive cycle can't go on; we need a drastic shake-up behind the scenes, with the outcome being a proactive, forward-thinking and ambitious club. 

Forward thinking and ambitious costs serious cash, John Boyle tried that approach to make us the " third force in Scotland " as he put it and we all know how that ended.

Football clubs are not normal businesses the successful one all have one or more very wealthy Individuals or companies behind them.

At our level its a different world our average crowd is probably well under 5k, combine that with limited sponsorship, crap TV deals, etc and we don't have a lot of cash to spare so what we offer gets us the level of players we Currently have playing for us, but on those criteria we have done well over the years, top flight Football, cup win, euro qualification etc so we are where we are.

If people want regular trophies, European group stage football, etc then unless we can persuade some multi millionaire to invest in the club its not going to happen.

Bottom line we are a small provincial club suffering fan wise from our proximity to the ugly sisters which limits our spending power, but for me I wouldn't change a thing we've done allright.

[wellfan]

13 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

If people want regular trophies, European group stage football, etc then unless we can persuade some multi millionaire to invest in the club its not going to happen.

If you read my subsequent posts above, you’ll see that this is not what I'm asking for or expecting. It doesnt have to be complete pish or a millionaire. There's a balanced middle ground to be found, but I fear we’re sleepwalking into complete pish. 

[bobbybingo]

38 minutes ago, wellfan said:

My opinion is based on the fact that I was born in the mid-80s, meaning I've only ever known Motherwell in the top flight. I can see the view of older fans who think we would be better dropping down a division and doing well there. However, my opinion is that we are a top-division team who should be aiming for midtable every season, with the occasional cup run and Euro qualification every 5-10 years. I don't think that's asking for much when the other teams of a similar size around us are considered. 

I'm sure they exist, but I don't personally know anyone who thinks dropping down a division would be beneficial in any way. 

I share your opinion on what we should be aiming for - and that's what's been delivered over the past 20 years or so.

If you think we're pissing money up against a wall to fix mistakes now, you should've witnessed the financial incontinence some of our previous boards and managers suffered from. Tommy McLean built a couple of great sides and brought great players to the club, but god knows how many absolute duds he shelled out on at the same time. It's always been a hit or a miss with signings, but a manager can't get the cheque book out to rectify their mistakes whenever they need to anymore. Almost every player they bring in is either a reject from somewhere else or completely untried at our level, and one bad transfer window could see them sacked long before they have a chance to fix it.

 

[Spiderpig]

16 minutes ago, wellfan said:

If you read my subsequent posts above, you’ll see that this is not what I'm asking for or expecting. It doesnt have to be complete pish or a millionaire. There's a balanced middle ground to be found, but I fear we’re sleepwalking into complete pish. 

So what's your idea of " balanced middle ground" then?

[David]

29 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

So what's your idea of " balanced middle ground" then?

For me, it's not actively signing absolute bollocks, for a start. Honestly man, anyone with half a brain could see that our signings this summer were going to fail. I know I got grief for not buying into "the human project," but I was astounded as to why we'd waste what little money we had on players like that, some on multi-year contracts.

There's absolutely no reason why we can't look to improve things above management level. We see other smaller clubs who have implemented sound signing policies and departments without spending a fortune. 

It would actually likely end up saving us money, as we hopefully wouldn't need to rush out every January and splurge on a new cast of players to try and replace the turgid crap we bought in the summer. 

Which, funnily enough, we're likely going to have to do this season again. Then we'll get to the summer and whoever is in charge will have the unenviable task of convincing some poor sap at another club to take the likes of Bair and Obika.

[wellfan]

51 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

So what's your idea of " balanced middle ground" then?

I think David nailed that in the first sentence of his response above. 

[bobbybingo]

20 minutes ago, David said:

There's absolutely no reason why we can't look to improve things above management level. We see other smaller clubs who have implemented sound signing policies and departments without spending a fortune. 

Out of curiosity, which clubs are you talking about?

[wellfan]

57 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

If you think we're pissing money up against a wall to fix mistakes now, you should've witnessed the financial incontinence some of our previous boards and managers suffered from. Tommy McLean built a couple of great sides and brought great players to the club, but god knows how many absolute duds he shelled out on at the same time. It's always been a hit or a miss with signings, but a manager can't get the cheque book out to rectify their mistakes whenever they need to anymore. Almost every player they bring in is either a reject from somewhere else or completely untried at our level, and one bad transfer window could see them sacked long before they have a chance to fix it.

I don't disagree with the principle of this; however, I question the footballing intellect and even the eyesight of those who sanctioned some of our most recent signings. 

[bobbybingo]

2 minutes ago, wellfan said:

I don't disagree with the principle of this; however, I question the footballing intellect and even the eyesight of those who sanctioned some of our most recent signings. 

I don't disagree, but I've seen much more money spent on players who also contributed hee haw, so it's no different in that respect.

What is different now is the overall quality of player coming to Scotland. I doubt anyone thinks the Old Firm have better players today than they did 15 or 20 years ago and it's a similar story everywhere else. This is a league full of average players, at best.

[wellfan]

26 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

I don't disagree, but I've seen much more money spent on players who also contributed hee haw, so it's no different in that respect

At least David Ferrère scored a hattrick. Etc.