Cup game St Mirren v Motherwell 19/08/2023

[steelboy]

Even just talking about trophies any of our fans younger than late 30s won't have seen us lift a trophy. Guys the same age who support St Mirren, Dundee United, Killie, St Johnstone, Ross County, Inverness have seen it. 

That's a big disapointment for a lot of our support and every Motherwell manager should be told no weakened team pish in cup games. 

[bobbybingo]

42 minutes ago, steelboy said:

I didn't say that. And it's not just about trophies but as MJC says our record in cup games overall is poor. 

You can look at individual managers like McGhee, Robinson and Alexander and see big differences in the standards they enforced across different periods of their tenure. 

Right now standards seem to be slipping and it's a big finish to the window for Kettlewell to recover that. If the manager is happy with Bair and Wilkinson as strikers and SOD and Souare as attacking wingbacks then it'll be the usual mid season change. 

If folk want a winning mentality in cups, then it is all about trophies. Finals might be good days out, but personally, losing them without laying a glove on your opponent pisses me off more than going out in an early round. If you're not the winners you're just another one of the losers, harsh as that may be at times.

If you want to talk about records in cup games, 4 finals in 20 years must rate as one of the most successful periods in our history. If you want to talk about younger fans not witnessing us winning a trophy, fair enough, but they have regularly seen high league finishes and European football, which I didn't for a long, long time. The other teams you mentioned have been relegated on numerous occasions since 1991, so maybe we should be grateful, who knows.

[stv]

1 hour ago, steelboy said:

It's down to the manager.

as there's no scrutiny of Motherwell managers there is no follow up. 

Aye there is ,as soon as a new manager comes in you scrutinise them and after two games they are scrutinised as being shite. Anti manager whoever is in charge.

[Mio Krivokapic]

It sounds a piece of piss this football management & recruitment lark

[MJC]

3 hours ago, bobbybingo said:

Yeah, leaving aside the 3 finals we've reached in that time - why would you count them - our recent record's poor. As is our historical record of winning trophies.

You've spoken about the club having a losing mentality when it comes to the cups. We know it's not the same players or managers every time we go out, so seriously, who is it you're blaming? 

Like I said last night I don’t know who, if any one person, is actually to blame for our mindset as a club.

However I do believe that we have a losers mentality which runs right from the boardroom to the support and as steelboy says a lot of managers and players pick up on that. Terry Butcher for example, the architect of “we’re punching way above our weight” was never done talking down our chances and harping on about us being a small club and skint when he was with us. When he went to ICT I never once heard him say similar about them. Stuart McCall and Mark McGhee also firmly bought into the “we’re only a wee club” mentality too. The only manager we’ve had in recent times who actually went against that attitude was Robinson when he first took over, but even he gradually came round to the Motherwell way of speaking and thinking.

Speaking of Robinson, him and Baraclough are the only two Motherwell managers in the last twenty years to oversee victories over Rangers. Both of them at the time of those games were ‘outsiders’ to the Scottish game. In that same time several managers who have had a much better knowledge of the game up here than those two did couldn’t manage to guide us to wins in that fixture.

So I think the question does need to be asked. Why do we continually fail in Cup ties when other clubs our size can (semi) regularly reach the latter stages and occasionally win it? Just like the question of why have several clubs our size managed to beat Rangers in the league in the last twenty years while we haven’t managed it? The answer to both questions, in my opinion, is because we have the wrong mentality as a club. 

[wellfan]

3 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

I first thought you meant 11 days to save his job. 

I thought you were the big joker here?!

[bobbybingo]

32 minutes ago, MJC said:

Like I said last night I don’t know who, if any one person, is actually to blame for our mindset as a club.

However I do believe that we have a losers mentality which runs right from the boardroom to the support and as steelboy says a lot of managers and players pick up on that. Terry Butcher for example, the architect of “we’re punching way above our weight” was never done talking down our chances and harping on about us being a small club and skint when he was with us. When he went to ICT I never once heard him say similar about them. Stuart McCall and Mark McGhee also firmly bought into the “we’re only a wee club” mentality too. The only manager we’ve had in recent times who actually went against that attitude was Robinson when he first took over, but even he gradually came round to the Motherwell way of speaking and thinking.

Speaking of Robinson, him and Baraclough are the only two Motherwell managers in the last twenty years to oversee victories over Rangers. Both of them at the time of those games were ‘outsiders’ to the Scottish game. In that same time several managers who have had a much better knowledge of the game up here than those two did couldn’t manage to guide us to wins in that fixture.

So I think the question does need to be asked. Why do we continually fail in Cup ties when other clubs our size can (semi) regularly reach the latter stages and occasionally win it? Just like the question of why have several clubs our size managed to beat Rangers in the league in the last twenty years while we haven’t managed it? The answer to both questions, in my opinion, is because we have the wrong mentality as a club. 

As I said, most seasons might have provided poor cup runs, but 4 finals in 20 years is good going for Motherwell at any time.

League wise, our recent record is right up there too, and far better than what a 'wee club' mentality would expect. Our record against the Old Firm, especially Rangers, is undoubtedly shittier than it used to be, even allowing for their ever increasing dominance, but losing to them in cup finals is same as it ever was for us, even during the most successful period in the club's history.

[Spiderpig]

25 minutes ago, MJC said:

Like I said last night I don’t know who, if any one person, is actually to blame for our mindset as a club.

However I do believe that we have a losers mentality which runs right from the boardroom to the support and as steelboy says a lot of managers and players pick up on that. Terry Butcher for example, the architect of “we’re punching way above our weight” was never done talking down our chances and harping on about us being a small club and skint when he was with us. When he went to ICT I never once heard him say similar about them. Stuart McCall and Mark McGhee also firmly bought into the “we’re only a wee club” mentality too. The only manager we’ve had in recent times who actually went against that attitude was Robinson when he first took over, but even he gradually came round to the Motherwell way of speaking and thinking.

Speaking of Robinson, him and Baraclough are the only two Motherwell managers in the last twenty years to oversee victories over Rangers. Both of them at the time of those games were ‘outsiders’ to the Scottish game. In that same time several managers who have had a much better knowledge of the game up here than those two did couldn’t manage to guide us to wins in that fixture.

So I think the question does need to be asked. Why do we continually fail in Cup ties when other clubs our size can (semi) regularly reach the latter stages and occasionally win it? Just like the question of why have several clubs our size managed to beat Rangers in the league in the last twenty years while we haven’t managed it? The answer to both questions, in my opinion, is because we have the wrong mentality as a club. 

It's feck all to do with winning mentality wee club mentality or any other shite like that, yes smaller less well supported, poorer clubs etc have and will beat bigger richer sides but results like that are very rare over the years.

On the day its down to simple  footballing ability ie can you play to 100% of your skill and ability as a team and hope the bigger club are only at 75% of theirs.

And sometimes you just need to admit that no matter how positive your mindset is etc you were beaten by a better team with better players etc simples.

[wellfan]

Most folks are probably pissed about yesterday because Kettlewell fielded a different and objectively weaker team (due to Soare's injury and trying to rest Miller) for a one-off knockout game. That was unusual for him. That is, given that he always stuck to what worked last season, it's so annoying that he decided to change quite a lot yesterday (McGinn from RCB to LWB, Casey from LCB to RCB, Blaney into LCB, and Davor for Miller) instead of slotting McGinley/Wilson into Soare's LWB position and continuing with Miller.

Our collective mentality around cup games is pathetic, as is our general form over the years. A club like ours should treat cup games as do-or-die situations. Kettlewell fucked it yesterday. 

[MJC]

It absolutely is down to mentality. Kilmarnock are currently leading 1-0 against Celtic with ten minutes to go and if they pull that off then not only will they have done an Old Firm double off in the space of a few weeks but they will do something else that we could only dream of by knocking Celtic out of a Cup. 
 

Our attitudes to Cup ties over the years has been disgraceful and managers chopping and changing teams for cup games is something we’ve seen all too often.

[Spiderpig]

1 minute ago, MJC said:

 but they will do something else that we could only dream of by knocking Celtic out of a Cup. 
 

 

We've been there and done that and by a bigger margin

[steelboy]

Celtic out.

A real missed opportunity for us. Does anyone at Fir Park even care?

[MJC]

11 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

We've been there and done that and by a bigger margin

Yeah I know. 32 years ago. 
 

And Killie have knocked Celtic out of the Cup, a result which makes yesterday all the more annoying for us. Obviously Rangers will now be the bookies favourites for the League Cup now but they are unconvincing and I wouldn’t be surprised to see one of Hearts, Aberdeen, Killie or St.Mirren winning it which would be sickening.

 

[Yodo]

Typical we go out and one of the Arsecheeks go out next day . An opportunity missed and it’s goes down to the manager poor team selection and tactics 

[MJC]

1 minute ago, steelboy said:

Celtic out.

A real missed opportunity for us. Does anyone at Fir Park even care?

Probably not. As you said there is no scrutiny or expectation on our managers or players from either the media or from within the club.

Results like Kilmarnock have just got there are just ones that we simply would not get.

[steeldrew]

We lose to  St Mirren every season. This is not in any way a shock. They're having a great spell with a good manager and they are a decent team for the level we're at.  We're in one of our annual periods of transition. I don't think it's a losers' mentality. It was one day with one team, as it always is and we weren't hammered. Some Premiership teams didn't even make it out the group stages. It hurts but that's cup football. 

I think we're in a better position in terms of the team than we were a year ago and that's how we measure progress. 

[joewarkfanclub]

I am 54 years old.

In the first 22 years of my life we had appeared in exactly zero cup finals.

In the last 32 years we have been to 5 and won 1.

Of the 4 we lost, we played Celtic or Rangers in every one.

We are one of a select number of clubs who have won all of the major trophies available to Scottish top flight clubs and have a rich history in taking the beautiful game around the globe.

You can also add in numerous top six finishes and European appearances to that list.

This belief that there is somehow something wrong with our club because we lost a very tight cup tie by the odd goal away from home against a similar sized club who are in good form is just ludicrous.

Yes Kettlewell got the team wrong yesterday and thats on him. Whilst he may not say it, he will know that, and it will hurt him.

However, his record is still excellent and the squad he is building is still well short of where he (and we) would like it to be.

Can we just for once, wait until October or November before we decide he is shite, his players are shite, he will be gone by xmas?

 

[bobbybingo]

24 minutes ago, MJC said:

Yeah I know. 32 years ago. 
 

 

Just 29 years since we did the same to Celtic.

We knocked Rangers out in the semis of this cup 6 years ago. It'll end the same way for Killie or St Mirren, if not both of them. Then their fans can bemoan the missed opportunity and their team's lack of winning mentality.

 

 

[SteelmaninOZ]

Goggsy said 

 

[ropy]

5 of last year’s top six were seeded in this round, we played the other away from home.  We lost.  I have misgivings about the team selection but the result was not a shock.

[Ya Bezzer!]

6 hours ago, bobbybingo said:

As I said, most seasons might have provided poor cup runs, but 4 finals in 20 years is good going for Motherwell at any time.

And we lost all four barely kicking a ball between the lot of them.

I wasn't that upset about the defeat at the weekend because I lost any belief that we can actually win a trophy a while back 

When we won the cup in 1991 we had guys like Cooper, Paterson, Angus, Ferguson, Russell, guys that had been there, done it and won it. 

On top of that we had some of the best youth players we've ever developed McCart, Boyd, O'Donnell and guys with the mental toughness to win - Nijholt, Griffin, O'Neil, Philliben, Arnott.

We don't have any of those types any more.

I don't want to be downbeat but it's just a realistic take on it. 

 

 

 

[Big Stall]

10 hours ago, steelboy said:

Even just talking about trophies any of our fans younger than late 30s won't have seen us lift a trophy. Guys the same age who support St Mirren, Dundee United, Killie, St Johnstone, Ross County, Inverness have seen it. 

That's a big disapointment for a lot of our support and every Motherwell manager should be told no weakened team pish in cup games. 

And those St Mirren fans who have seen them win a cup, have also seen them relegated a number of times, fought relegation the majority of years they were in the top league, never saw them in  europe, never had the 2, second places and 4? Thirds we have. Until May there they never had a "top 6 trophy" which we must have stacks of. So yes, they have a cup win which would be awesome, but would i swap our last 30 years for theirs? Nah, not for me

[bobbybingo]

33 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

And we lost all four barely kicking a ball between the lot of them.

I wasn't that upset about the defeat at the weekend because I lost any belief that we can actually win a trophy a while back 

When we won the cup in 1991 we had guys like Cooper, Paterson, Angus, Ferguson, Russell, guys that had been there, done it and won it. 

On top of that we had some of the best youth players we've ever developed McCart, Boyd, O'Donnell and guys with the mental toughness to win - Nijholt, Griffin, O'Neil, Philliben, Arnott.

We don't have any of those types any more.

I don't want to be downbeat but it's just a realistic take on it. 

 

 

 

Yeah, that's a realistic take on it and I wouldn't disagree with most of what you say - but I'll keep that wee bit of belief that someday, somehow, we'll win something.

I wonder, when people say our cup form since '91 has been crap, when was it that much better or different? My first game, I saw one of the best Motherwell sides I've watched losing a semi final replay to Airdrie. I learned the way things usually end very early, and given our history, I know how lucky I am to have been there when we won a cup.

[El Grew]

On 8/19/2023 at 5:36 PM, fizoxy said:

And we also don't have enough of a fan base to attract some rich weirdo to buy us.

I doubt the size of fanbase has any bearing on whether or not some “rich weirdo” as you put it, would be attracted to buy any club. Anyone with a large financial surplus would be wise to steer clear of football clubs because they are simply black holes for money.

[steelboy]

8 hours ago, Big Stall said:

And those St Mirren fans who have seen them win a cup, have also seen them relegated a number of times, fought relegation the majority of years they were in the top league, never saw them in  europe, never had the 2, second places and 4? Thirds we have. Until May there they never had a "top 6 trophy" which we must have stacks of. So yes, they have a cup win which would be awesome, but would i swap our last 30 years for theirs? Nah, not for me

That's how fans look at things and I agree with that. However it's got nothing to do with the performance of the manager and players when a knockout game comes round. None of the players on the park on Saturday would have a clue about either teams results 20 years ago, it's all about on the day and Kettlewell had us beat before we even arrived in Paisley. 

A good example of a similar thing is Celtic in Europe. They haven't won a European knock out tie in 20 years now and taking their budget and access to UEFA competitions into account they are clearly the worst performing team on the whole continent in European results over that spell. Their fans should be up in arms about it but have been conditioned to accept it by the club and media to the extent it seems to have spread to the playing side of the club.