Motherwell v Celtic 30/09/2023

[joewarkfanclub]

It beggars belief that anyone on here cant see the difference between the absolute gutless spankings we used to get regularly at the hands of the big two and what we have seen in the last two weeks. You'd have to be a real miserable barsteward not to accept that those two performances are as close as we have been to beating either of them in years.

Yes its disappointing and frustrating not to have got anything to show for our efforts but surely folks are encouraged by the fact that we were finally competitive with them?

It might also be worthy to consider how football has changed over the years and that the old ideas of playing 2 or 3 up top automatically give you more of a goal threat just isnt the case any more. There are many different ways to play. Some of which dont involve the use of out and out strikers at all.

The injuries to our forwards have forced SK into adopting a style of play he may not have chosen otherwise. The extra man in midfield is giving us much more possession of the ball and more security for our defence. Before that we were much more effective as a counter attacking team and had to be as we had less possession with a man less in midfield.

The last 3 games have been tough to take and naturally because we failed to score in 2 of them everyone looks at the strikers and is blaming Bair for not being good enough.

But take a minute to look at the chances we have created. Who the chances have fallen to and who has had a part in creating them. 

Bair is offering plenty to the team. For all his good work he only had one chance on goal, hit the target and forced a good save from Bain. Other chances have fallen to Spittal, Slattery, Shaw etc. No one is criticising them for missing their chances and they still get plenty credit for the other parts of their game.

I dont want to make out that Im some Theo Bair fanboy, because Im not. I can see his deficiencies the same as everyone else, but he is being measured by a different bar to everyone else in the team and that doesnt seem fair.

Ive no doubt that when we have all our players back match fit he probably wont be near the first 11 as Biereth, Wilkinson and Obika will all be ahead of him, but until then, I think he is doing alright and if we start winning games again and he never scores another goal for us, no one will care as long as he is contributing towards the 3 points.

The team has also been given a significant overhaul over the summer, so it wouldnt be unreasonable to think its still a work in progress and might take a couple more windows to address everything SK would like to fix.

Rome wasnt built in a day, but the foundations are laid and Im quite excited to see what this team can become if SK isnt poached away and gets the opportunity to finish the job.

[SteelmaninOZ]

43 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

It beggars belief that anyone on here cant see the difference between the absolute gutless spankings we used to get regularly at the hands of the big two and what we have seen in the last two weeks. You'd have to be a real miserable barsteward not to accept that those two performances are as close as we have been to beating either of them in years.

Yes its disappointing and frustrating not to have got anything to show for our efforts but surely folks are encouraged by the fact that we were finally competitive with them?

It might also be worthy to consider how football has changed over the years and that the old ideas of playing 2 or 3 up top automatically give you more of a goal threat just isnt the case any more. There are many different ways to play. Some of which dont involve the use of out and out strikers at all.

The injuries to our forwards have forced SK into adopting a style of play he may not have chosen otherwise. The extra man in midfield is giving us much more possession of the ball and more security for our defence. Before that we were much more effective as a counter attacking team and had to be as we had less possession with a man less in midfield.

The last 3 games have been tough to take and naturally because we failed to score in 2 of them everyone looks at the strikers and is blaming Bair for not being good enough.

But take a minute to look at the chances we have created. Who the chances have fallen to and who has had a part in creating them. 

Bair is offering plenty to the team. For all his good work he only had one chance on goal, hit the target and forced a good save from Bain. Other chances have fallen to Spittal, Slattery, Shaw etc. No one is criticising them for missing their chances and they still get plenty credit for the other parts of their game.

I dont want to make out that Im some Theo Bair fanboy, because Im not. I can see his deficiencies the same as everyone else, but he is being measured by a different bar to everyone else in the team and that doesnt seem fair.

Ive no doubt that when we have all our players back match fit he probably wont be near the first 11 as Biereth, Wilkinson and Obika will all be ahead of him, but until then, I think he is doing alright and if we start winning games again and he never scores another goal for us, no one will care as long as he is contributing towards the 3 points.

The team has also been given a significant overhaul over the summer, so it wouldnt be unreasonable to think its still a work in progress and might take a couple more windows to address everything SK would like to fix.

Rome wasnt built in a day, but the foundations are laid and Im quite excited to see what this team can become if SK isnt poached away and gets the opportunity to finish the job.

Excellent summary of the current situation. I think SK has/is doing a great job with the team, don’t forget Bair is a special project of SK. 
My worry is SK being headhunted by a bigger club like RIFC or an English club.

COYW

[Kmcalpin]

7 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

It beggars belief that anyone on here cant see the difference between the absolute gutless spankings we used to get regularly at the hands of the big two and what we have seen in the last two weeks. You'd have to be a real miserable barsteward not to accept that those two performances are as close as we have been to beating either of them in years...........Rome wasnt built in a day, but the foundations are laid and Im quite excited to see what this team can become if SK isnt poached away and gets the opportunity to finish the job.

Good thought provoking post and I agree with most of it. SK is doing well and the team has improved immeasurably as you say. We can all see that. However, a glorious defeat is still a defeat at the end of the day. In the long term they may well help our goal difference if we're talking about practicalities. As OTF rightly says we'll now see what SK is really made of after 3 defeats on the trot.

SK has indeed been forced into making large scale changes due to a horrifici injury list; not just in terms of personnel but also in terms of formation.  At our level, there are always trade offs/ swings and roundabouts; however you want to describe them. Theo Bair is what he is, although hopefully he'll improve under the management's guidance. He's a good target man but no goalscorer and relies on the midfield to get forward to feed from him. If they can't do that or don't have the goalscoring instinct then we're in trouble. The flipside is that we have a strong midfield who can protect the defence, up to a point in my view. What happens when our strikers are fuilly fit is anyone's guess. Maybe it'll be horses for courses?

One, less highlighted, concern I do have is that we play fairly narrowly and that puts pressure on the 2 wing backs. In recent games we've seen teams take advantage of that to notch a few, a few, important goals.  I'm not getting at individuals here but I'd like to see Gent and Spencer start to see what they can do. They might provide us with more energy. We know what O'Donnell can and can't do but the jury is still is still out on Souare for me and I'm yet to be convinced. The next 4 games are important and will allow us to see how things pan out.  I don't doubt David Martindale will have been watching St Mirren's and Celtic's goals against us with interest; so lets hope that particular loophole is closed firmly shut on Saturday.   

[Spiderpig]

15 hours ago, well_said said:

Apparently they managed to open a gate to let people in without tickets . Ban them completely .

They were standing on the stairways, crowding the exits, even sitting on the steelwork on the side and back of the stand ffs and the stewards did feck all.

Pitch invasions and no sign of any arrests, and that applies to our own fans as well who came on when we scored. The green brigade scum think they are untouchable due to the numbers, but if the police and Stewards stand and let them away with it nothing will change.

I went but It's the only home game I seriously think about not going to due to the shite that comes with it.

[wellfan]

The Green Brigade and Union Bears are one and the same; scummy wee pricks. You can also add some of the Well Bois to that pot of steaming piss. 

[TwistAndShout]

20 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

They were standing on the stairways, crowding the exits, even sitting on the steelwork on the side and back of the stand ffs and the stewards did feck all.

Pitch invasions and no sign of any arrests, and that applies to our own fans as well who came on when we scored. The green brigade scum think they are untouchable due to the numbers, but if the police and Stewards stand and let them away with it nothing will change.

I went but It's the only home game I seriously think about not going to due to the shite that comes with it.

I'm told that the forced their way through a turnstile and then kicked open an emergency exit to allow a very large number of ticketless fans in. In doing so, a police officer was injured and an elderly steward was caught in the stampede and kicked in the jaw. So the stand was over occupied by quite a bit.

This is not the first time they've done this, which begs the question as to why the club and police were not set up to deal with it. And also why the game was allowed to go ahead with such a safety issue.

Add in the 3 pitch invasions, the usual theft of at least one match ball and bizarrely a corner flag and it's hard to fathom how they get away with all of this.

The invasion by the Bois I felt was stupid, but I was also kind of glad they did this time. Any criticism can be put right back on to Brendan's defence of the incident at Livingston - which also encouraged the Celtic fans on Saturday as he'd effectively told them it was fine. The Motherwell fans were generally young boys, but the Celtic fans who confronted players and got as far as the half way line were grown men, some of whom looked old enough to be grandparents. 

[wellfan]

16 minutes ago, TwistAndShout said:

some of whom looked old enough to be grandparents.

The hubris and sectarian seethe is strong in this type. They walk and work among us, unfortunately. 

[steeldrew]

If this is true,  I cannot believe that the match went ahead. The club has a responsibility to make sure the ground is a safe place. The potential for something really serious to happen with overcrowding cannot be overstated.

[wellfan]

14 minutes ago, steeldrew said:

If this is true,  I cannot believe that the match went ahead. The club has a responsibility to make sure the ground is a safe place. The potential for something really serious to happen with overcrowding cannot be overstated.

I agree, but it’s the responsibility of the stewards/supervisors and police paid for by the Club to prevent this and implement a delay and/or abandonment. I can also guarantee that the kickoff would’ve been delayed to sort this out had the game not involved Celtic (or Rangers). However, I also don’t think this type of scummy behaviour would happen at another game in Scotland not involving those two. As usual with the policing/stewarding of fans in Scottish football, it's one rule for those two and another for the rest of us. And that's why I rarely go to matches involving them  

[Kmcalpin]

41 minutes ago, wellfan said:

I agree, but it’s the responsibility of the stewards/supervisors and police paid for by the Club to prevent this and implement a delay and/or abandonment. I can also guarantee that the kickoff would’ve been delayed to sort this out had the game not involved Celtic (or Rangers). However, I also don’t think this type of scummy behaviour would happen at another game in Scotland not involving those two. As usual with the policing/stewarding of fans in Scottish football, it's one rule for those two and another for the rest of us. And that's why I rarely go to matches involving them  

Agreed. The club can only do so much. This was really down to the police. The club cannot postpone kick off. Only the ref and police can do that. I know its on a different scale entirely, but given what happened at Hillsborough, you'd think that the police would be very wary of break ins. If the overcrowding had been the result OF MFC overselling tickets, the police would have been very quick to act. 

I have a lot of sympathy for our police  given severe budget cuts but we were paying them from our own funds. However, due to political sensitivities this will be swept under the carpet by Police Scotland. 

[TwistAndShout]

Also, if the emergency in the Cooper had occurred in the away end the access is massively impacted by the overcrowding. 

[MJC]

We’ve been having this discussion about Celtic and the Green Brigade for well over ten years now and they’re only getting worse.

They are a very dangerous and sinister outfit who are able to bully and manipulate everyone due to their numbers and their victim hood mentality which makes them untouchable to so many in sport, the media and in politics. Indeed they have alot of friends in high places when it comes to politics. And just last week a steward at Livingston who was no doubt on minimum wage and simply trying to do his job and get a pitch invader off the pitch is accosted by Brendan Rodgers and completely undermined. What message does that send out? 
 

Celtic, their support and the Green Brigade are untouchable in Scotland and there is nothing that anyone can do about it I’m afraid. They are just too powerful and it goes way beyond football or sport. This is a club that trade on being or representing a poor downtrodden community battling against the establishment which is doing everything in its power to keep them down. To question them, to speak out against them publicly risks professional and personal harm and that is why the police, the authorities etc let them basically do what they like. 
 

Of course in reality and if you take a step back and look at them for what they actually are then any reasonable minded person will see that they absolutely are not a persecuted community, rather a big bunch of loud mouthed hypocrites who use ancient old grievances which have nothing to do with football in order to gain any advantage they can get. And unfortunately it works for them.

[Happy Dosser]

2 hours ago, wellfan said:

I agree, but it’s the responsibility of the stewards/supervisors and police paid for by the Club to prevent this and implement a delay and/or abandonment. I can also guarantee that the kickoff would’ve been delayed to sort this out had the game not involved Celtic (or Rangers). However, I also don’t think this type of scummy behaviour would happen at another game in Scotland not involving those two. As usual with the policing/stewarding of fans in Scottish football, it's one rule for those two and another for the rest of us. And that's why I rarely go to matches involving them  

Have to agree. I once had to get the train from Hamilton to Airbles and got caught up in the Green Brigade as they matched from the station under police escort to the ground. It was a grim experience. They abused the police verbally, even the policewomen, and behaved like a lot of thugs-in-formation, rounding it off with an obscene song about Stuart McCall, yet no arrests were made.

There's not a Rizla between them and the worst  (and numerous) elements of The Grayskullers but the authorities seem ultra reluctant to do anything about it. The latter's pitch invasion in 1978  at Fir Park (3-5) because they found their team 2-0 down was anarchic intimidation of the worse kind and yet  the result stood and no action was taken against RFC.

[David]

13 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

The last 3 games have been tough to take and naturally because we failed to score in 2 of them everyone looks at the strikers and is blaming Bair for not being good enough.

But take a minute to look at the chances we have created. Who the chances have fallen to and who has had a part in creating them. 

Personally, I'm not being critical of Bair for not scoring against Celtic or Rangers. I'm being critical because he never really looks like he's ever going to score. Apart from the odd occasion, I don't see him even in a threatening position. 

I'll say it again, he's a striker. He's not expected to be prolific, but surely he's expected to score some goals? Or at least get into the positions we see strikers get in to?

14 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Bair is offering plenty to the team. For all his good work he only had one chance on goal, hit the target and forced a good save from Bain.

He had that single chance because he doesn't move around like a striker. He doesn't find his way into the positions that strikers should. It's been the main criticism of him for most of his professional career. Virtually every fan of every team he's ever played for has said the same thing. He's a hard worker, he covers a lot of ground, but he doesn't ever really look like scoring goals. And when we can see this, the opposition sees this. And when they see this, they adjust their gameplan accordingly, because they can set their defenders out differently than they would when playing a team whose forward player is a known threat. 

14 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Other chances have fallen to Spittal, Slattery, Shaw etc. No one is criticising them for missing their chances and they still get plenty credit for the other parts of their game.

On Slattery and Spittal, that's because they're midfielders. That's their primary position. If they can chip in with some goals then all the better, but why would anyone be critical of our midfielders when they're basically being asked to not only do their job in midfield but also take up the mantle as goalscorers because our forward doesn't know how to score goals?

Slattery and Spittal will face criticism when they don't do their job in midfield. They shouldn't be expected to pick up the slack for a guy who isn't capable of doing his job of scoring goals.

Shaw has had zero starts so far. Not one. He's played a combined 60 minutes of football all season, with it coming in bursts of 10-20 minutes here and there. 

I'll judge him when he's had a run of starts similar to that being given to Bair. If Shaw can't even look like scoring after the same number of starts as Bair then I'll be critical of him.

14 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I dont want to make out that Im some Theo Bair fanboy, because Im not. I can see his deficiencies the same as everyone else, but he is being measured by a different bar to everyone else in the team and that doesnt seem fair.

How is he being measured by a different bar? He's a striker. He's being measured by how many goals he scores, like every other striker in the professional game. In the past, if a striker isn't getting goals, we look to see if he's at least getting into those positions and looks like he's getting close.

Bair isn't. He rarely looks like he knows where he has to be in order to score a goal. Having watched him in most of our games this season, it's blatantly obvious why his scoring record isn't good. He simply doesn't have the instinct or mindset of a striker. 

It's quite funny really, because in the past our fans would slag the shit out of Van Veen for being "lazy." The guy knew where he had to be to score goals. he could do nothing for 60 minutes, then be in the right place at the right time to grab two goals and win us a game or get us a draw that looked unlikely.

But Bair gets praised because he runs around a lot and comes deep to make simple passes. All the while the opposition defence is having an easy day because while he's running around and looking busy, he's nowhere near being a threat to the actual goal. All they need to do is watch for Spittal or Slattery coming from midfield.

But it seems some of our fans prefer a player who looks busy and "runs his socks off" to a player who has an instinct and knows how to play the game with intelligence. Such a player is branded "lazy." Van Veen didn't fall deep to make a simple pass because he knew that wouldn't get him any closer to scoring a goal, which was his job.

14 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Ive no doubt that when we have all our players back match fit he probably wont be near the first 11 as Biereth, Wilkinson and Obika will all be ahead of him, but until then, I think he is doing alright and if we start winning games again and he never scores another goal for us, no one will care as long as he is contributing towards the 3 points.

Will they get picked over him? As has been mentioned elsewhere, it seems there's some doubt over Wilkinson being the guy to replace him. He's apparently too slow, and has been written off as shite? 

Obika? What will he provide? He's injury-prone, and I would wager a decent sum of money that he spends more game days in the stands injured than he does in the team. He was brought in last season as back-up. 

Biereth is an unknown. It's unfair to put any real pressure on a kid who's played 15 professional games. If he provides some goals, then great, but I don't know if he's going to be the guy to lead the line.

We better hope that Spittal and Slattery have the season of their lives because we're going to need them to. 

[grizzlyg]

15 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

It beggars belief that anyone on here cant see the difference between the absolute gutless spankings we used to get regularly at the hands of the big two and what we have seen in the last two weeks. You'd have to be a real miserable barsteward not to accept that those two performances are as close as we have been to beating either of them in years.

Yes its disappointing and frustrating not to have got anything to show for our efforts but surely folks are encouraged by the fact that we were finally competitive with them?

It might also be worthy to consider how football has changed over the years and that the old ideas of playing 2 or 3 up top automatically give you more of a goal threat just isnt the case any more. There are many different ways to play. Some of which dont involve the use of out and out strikers at all.

The injuries to our forwards have forced SK into adopting a style of play he may not have chosen otherwise. The extra man in midfield is giving us much more possession of the ball and more security for our defence. Before that we were much more effective as a counter attacking team and had to be as we had less possession with a man less in midfield.

The last 3 games have been tough to take and naturally because we failed to score in 2 of them everyone looks at the strikers and is blaming Bair for not being good enough.

But take a minute to look at the chances we have created. Who the chances have fallen to and who has had a part in creating them. 

Bair is offering plenty to the team. For all his good work he only had one chance on goal, hit the target and forced a good save from Bain. Other chances have fallen to Spittal, Slattery, Shaw etc. No one is criticising them for missing their chances and they still get plenty credit for the other parts of their game.

I dont want to make out that Im some Theo Bair fanboy, because Im not. I can see his deficiencies the same as everyone else, but he is being measured by a different bar to everyone else in the team and that doesnt seem fair.

Ive no doubt that when we have all our players back match fit he probably wont be near the first 11 as Biereth, Wilkinson and Obika will all be ahead of him, but until then, I think he is doing alright and if we start winning games again and he never scores another goal for us, no one will care as long as he is contributing towards the 3 points.

The team has also been given a significant overhaul over the summer, so it wouldnt be unreasonable to think its still a work in progress and might take a couple more windows to address everything SK would like to fix.

Rome wasnt built in a day, but the foundations are laid and Im quite excited to see what this team can become if SK isnt poached away and gets the opportunity to finish the job.

Great post

[SteelmaninOZ]

Fitba can be cruel 

 

[dennyc]

4 hours ago, David said:

Personally, I'm not being critical of Bair for not scoring against Celtic or Rangers. I'm being critical because he never really looks like he's ever going to score. Apart from the odd occasion, I don't see him even in a threatening position. 

I'll say it again, he's a striker. He's not expected to be prolific, but surely he's expected to score some goals? Or at least get into the positions we see strikers get in to?

He had that single chance because he doesn't move around like a striker. He doesn't find his way into the positions that strikers should. It's been the main criticism of him for most of his professional career. Virtually every fan of every team he's ever played for has said the same thing. He's a hard worker, he covers a lot of ground, but he doesn't ever really look like scoring goals. And when we can see this, the opposition sees this. And when they see this, they adjust their gameplan accordingly, because they can set their defenders out differently than they would when playing a team whose forward player is a known threat. 

On Slattery and Spittal, that's because they're midfielders. That's their primary position. If they can chip in with some goals then all the better, but why would anyone be critical of our midfielders when they're basically being asked to not only do their job in midfield but also take up the mantle as goalscorers because our forward doesn't know how to score goals?

Slattery and Spittal will face criticism when they don't do their job in midfield. They shouldn't be expected to pick up the slack for a guy who isn't capable of doing his job of scoring goals.

Shaw has had zero starts so far. Not one. He's played a combined 60 minutes of football all season, with it coming in bursts of 10-20 minutes here and there. 

I'll judge him when he's had a run of starts similar to that being given to Bair. If Shaw can't even look like scoring after the same number of starts as Bair then I'll be critical of him.

How is he being measured by a different bar? He's a striker. He's being measured by how many goals he scores, like every other striker in the professional game. In the past, if a striker isn't getting goals, we look to see if he's at least getting into those positions and looks like he's getting close.

Bair isn't. He rarely looks like he knows where he has to be in order to score a goal. Having watched him in most of our games this season, it's blatantly obvious why his scoring record isn't good. He simply doesn't have the instinct or mindset of a striker. 

It's quite funny really, because in the past our fans would slag the shit out of Van Veen for being "lazy." The guy knew where he had to be to score goals. he could do nothing for 60 minutes, then be in the right place at the right time to grab two goals and win us a game or get us a draw that looked unlikely.

But Bair gets praised because he runs around a lot and comes deep to make simple passes. All the while the opposition defence is having an easy day because while he's running around and looking busy, he's nowhere near being a threat to the actual goal. All they need to do is watch for Spittal or Slattery coming from midfield.

But it seems some of our fans prefer a player who looks busy and "runs his socks off" to a player who has an instinct and knows how to play the game with intelligence. Such a player is branded "lazy." Van Veen didn't fall deep to make a simple pass because he knew that wouldn't get him any closer to scoring a goal, which was his job.

Will they get picked over him? As has been mentioned elsewhere, it seems there's some doubt over Wilkinson being the guy to replace him. He's apparently too slow, and has been written off as shite? 

Obika? What will he provide? He's injury-prone, and I would wager a decent sum of money that he spends more game days in the stands injured than he does in the team. He was brought in last season as back-up. 

Biereth is an unknown. It's unfair to put any real pressure on a kid who's played 15 professional games. If he provides some goals, then great, but I don't know if he's going to be the guy to lead the line.

We better hope that Spittal and Slattery have the season of their lives because we're going to need them to. 

I thought Steelboy was the one on this site that became obsessed with certain players. Bair appears to be your SOD or Spittal. Not quite Burrows, but getting there. Most of the time you are debating with yourself as everybody...including me....agrees with what you say.  Perfectly valid comments and questioning of a risky signing policy. If I am wrong, point me towards anybody who has stated that Bair as a striker is up to the standard we require. Or even that we should have signed him in the first place......project or not.

Being realistic, going on about Bair's lack of goals or his signing is going to change absolutely nothing right now. Taking into account our injury issues, the below par performance of our other strikers on admittedly limited game time, the fact our best young prospect is far from first team ready and finally the formation our Manager seems to prefer. The same formation he adopted last season. So not one introduced solely to counter this season's challenges.

Every single Motherwell fan would gladly swap Bair for a regular goal scorer or welcome a structure that could facilitate a proven goal scorer being played alongside him. If either Shaw or Wilkinson is that striker then I trust Kettlewell to alter things. But nothing I have seen so far suggests that either of those players is the solution. Shaw's attempts against St Mirren and Rangers were poor and cost us points. What would you be saying if Bair had missed those chances? Wilkinson looks to have some decent ability but has no pace and dithers on the ball looking to get a shot away. He himself has said he is not a target man, despite his height.  I sincerely hope my assessment of both players is wrong as all I really want is my team to win games. No matter who scores. Biereth might have been the player to replace Bair but Charles Dunne robbed us of that option for now.

One thing was perfectly clear on Saturday, we were a better unit with Bair on the park than we were with Shaw and Wilkinson contributing the sum total of zero when they came on. At a time in the game when others were finding it tough to keep going I expected a bit more effort and support from both.

[grizzlyg]

I am willing Bair on and he is trying his best. The main issue is I don't believe for a minute SK had lined up for a regular start but injuries have meant we had no choice.

I would be tempted to start Shaw on Saturday and let's see how he does over 70 mins or so. 

[texanwellfan]

Im wondering If SK is liking the approach of one up top for 70 mins or so and if not in the lead, then switch to two up top. Or Did he decide that’s our best chance regardless of who we play or our best option for the last 3 opponents? 

[grizzlyg]

21 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

Im wondering If SK is liking the approach of one up top for 70 mins or so and if not in the lead, then switch to two up top. Or Did he decide that’s our best chance regardless of who we play or our best option for the last 3 opponents? 

I think the big change on us going 1 up top is apart from injuries the fact that Paton in my opinion ha been excellent. We have 4 very good midfielders and impossible to drop any at moment but I could see young Lennon possibly making way on Saturday as might not the kind of game for him but I could be wrong

[texanwellfan]

The good thing is if we don’t know then Livi won’t know ! 

[David]

3 hours ago, dennyc said:

I thought Steelboy was the one on this site that became obsessed with certain players. Bair appears to be your SOD or Spittal. Not quite Burrows, but getting there.

Nah, that's a bit of a strawman argument there in my opinion.

It's incredibly lazy to take any argument against a player and shoot it down with "Oh, you're just doing what Steelboy does..." in an attempt to silence the debate.

That's bollocks, and you know it. Steelboy has an irrational dislike of certain players. I don't. I'm arguing against his results and stats, which is totally different. If we were persevering with Wilkinson, Shaw or Obika up front and they had managed a single goal in eight starts and rarely looked like scoring I'd be saying the exact same thing about them. And I doubt I'd be alone. In fact, in Wilkinson's limited game time for us I've seen more people be critical of him than anyone has been of Bair.

Bair has averaged about one goal every eleven games in his career. That was roughly how many he was scoring before he started his first game for us, and he's doing absolutely nothing to make me think he'll do any better here. If we continue playing him he'll maybe get us around 3 league goals this season. At best.

So no, bin the strawman nonsense.

3 hours ago, dennyc said:

Most of the time you are debating with yourself as everybody...including me....agrees with what you say.

I'm debating with the points I quote in my posts. It's how an internet forum works. People say things and other people reply and argue against their viewpoint. The post I quoted was talking about how much Bair adds to the team, and how others should receive as much criticism for not scoring as he does. 

So again, no, I'm not debating with myself. I've learned of late that if I want to even hint at criticism of Bair I need to make sure I tread carefully lest I be tarred with the irrational hatred of players or "personal vendetta" brush. That's why I always try to quote the exact points I'm replying to. 

3 hours ago, dennyc said:

If either Shaw or Wilkinson is that striker then I trust Kettlewell to alter things. But nothing I have seen so far suggests that either of those players is the solution. Shaw's attempts against St Mirren and Rangers were poor and cost us points. What would you be saying if Bair had missed those chances?

What would I be saying if Bair missed those chances? I'd actually be impressed. Because for him to miss those chances would mean he'd managed to find his way into the position of actually getting them to begin with. Bair can go through almost entire games and not register a single shot on target. You know the old saying. You miss 100% of the chances you don't take. Or in his case, the chances you don't get to begin with.

Both Shaw and Wilkinson, from what I've seen, and their career history, look to me like players who could get us between 7 to 10 league goals if they were given a decent run in the team, which is around average for a decent striker at our level. They've shown in the past that they know how to score goals, and you can see that when they have appeared for us. 

Sure, they miss chances. All strikers do. But the fact they actually find themselves in a position to get those chances is enough for me to want to see them play. 

3 hours ago, dennyc said:

One thing was perfectly clear on Saturday, we were a better unit with Bair on the park than we were with Shaw and Wilkinson contributing the sum total of zero when they came on. At a time in the game when others were finding it tough to keep going I expected a bit more effort and support from both.

They came on late in the game when our midfield was basically fucked. They'd been trying to cope with a much better quality of player all game, plus they were being relied upon to pose any kind of forward threat. 

Look, all I'll say in closing is that I was critical of us signing Bair at the start of the season. I was told not to be critical until we'd at least seen him play. Now I'm being told that, after seeing him play, my criticism, which is based entirely on his abilities as a player, is "irrational" and a "personal vendetta."

When we continue to play a striker who never even looks like scoring, I'm going to voice my concerns. It's as simple as that. If people don't like it? Keep scrolling. 

[joewarkfanclub]

9 hours ago, David said:

Personally, I'm not being critical of Bair for not scoring against Celtic or Rangers. I'm being critical because he never really looks like he's ever going to score. Apart from the odd occasion, I don't see him even in a threatening position. 

I'll say it again, he's a striker. He's not expected to be prolific, but surely he's expected to score some goals? Or at least get into the positions we see strikers get in to?

He had that single chance because he doesn't move around like a striker. He doesn't find his way into the positions that strikers should. It's been the main criticism of him for most of his professional career. Virtually every fan of every team he's ever played for has said the same thing. He's a hard worker, he covers a lot of ground, but he doesn't ever really look like scoring goals. And when we can see this, the opposition sees this. And when they see this, they adjust their gameplan accordingly, because they can set their defenders out differently than they would when playing a team whose forward player is a known threat. 

On Slattery and Spittal, that's because they're midfielders. That's their primary position. If they can chip in with some goals then all the better, but why would anyone be critical of our midfielders when they're basically being asked to not only do their job in midfield but also take up the mantle as goalscorers because our forward doesn't know how to score goals?

Slattery and Spittal will face criticism when they don't do their job in midfield. They shouldn't be expected to pick up the slack for a guy who isn't capable of doing his job of scoring goals.

Shaw has had zero starts so far. Not one. He's played a combined 60 minutes of football all season, with it coming in bursts of 10-20 minutes here and there. 

I'll judge him when he's had a run of starts similar to that being given to Bair. If Shaw can't even look like scoring after the same number of starts as Bair then I'll be critical of him.

How is he being measured by a different bar? He's a striker. He's being measured by how many goals he scores, like every other striker in the professional game. In the past, if a striker isn't getting goals, we look to see if he's at least getting into those positions and looks like he's getting close.

Bair isn't. He rarely looks like he knows where he has to be in order to score a goal. Having watched him in most of our games this season, it's blatantly obvious why his scoring record isn't good. He simply doesn't have the instinct or mindset of a striker. 

It's quite funny really, because in the past our fans would slag the shit out of Van Veen for being "lazy." The guy knew where he had to be to score goals. he could do nothing for 60 minutes, then be in the right place at the right time to grab two goals and win us a game or get us a draw that looked unlikely.

But Bair gets praised because he runs around a lot and comes deep to make simple passes. All the while the opposition defence is having an easy day because while he's running around and looking busy, he's nowhere near being a threat to the actual goal. All they need to do is watch for Spittal or Slattery coming from midfield.

But it seems some of our fans prefer a player who looks busy and "runs his socks off" to a player who has an instinct and knows how to play the game with intelligence. Such a player is branded "lazy." Van Veen didn't fall deep to make a simple pass because he knew that wouldn't get him any closer to scoring a goal, which was his job.

Will they get picked over him? As has been mentioned elsewhere, it seems there's some doubt over Wilkinson being the guy to replace him. He's apparently too slow, and has been written off as shite? 

Obika? What will he provide? He's injury-prone, and I would wager a decent sum of money that he spends more game days in the stands injured than he does in the team. He was brought in last season as back-up. 

Biereth is an unknown. It's unfair to put any real pressure on a kid who's played 15 professional games. If he provides some goals, then great, but I don't know if he's going to be the guy to lead the line.

We better hope that Spittal and Slattery have the season of their lives because we're going to need them to. 

No point really responding to any of that. Ive given plenty of mitigation to my position which you seem happy to ignore.

You obviously have no interest in finding the middle ground and seem determined just to win the debate.

Thats fair enough and you are entiteld to your opinion. 

As I said before, its a matter of perspective. I will continue to look at the positives.

[dennyc]

2 hours ago, David said:

Nah, that's a bit of a strawman argument there in my opinion.

It's incredibly lazy to take any argument against a player and shoot it down with "Oh, you're just doing what Steelboy does..." in an attempt to silence the debate.

That's bollocks, and you know it. Steelboy has an irrational dislike of certain players. I don't. I'm arguing against his results and stats, which is totally different. If we were persevering with Wilkinson, Shaw or Obika up front and they had managed a single goal in eight starts and rarely looked like scoring I'd be saying the exact same thing about them. And I doubt I'd be alone. In fact, in Wilkinson's limited game time for us I've seen more people be critical of him than anyone has been of Bair.

Bair has averaged about one goal every eleven games in his career. That was roughly how many he was scoring before he started his first game for us, and he's doing absolutely nothing to make me think he'll do any better here. If we continue playing him he'll maybe get us around 3 league goals this season. At best.

So no, bin the strawman nonsense.

I'm debating with the points I quote in my posts. It's how an internet forum works. People say things and other people reply and argue against their viewpoint. The post I quoted was talking about how much Bair adds to the team, and how others should receive as much criticism for not scoring as he does. 

So again, no, I'm not debating with myself. I've learned of late that if I want to even hint at criticism of Bair I need to make sure I tread carefully lest I be tarred with the irrational hatred of players or "personal vendetta" brush. That's why I always try to quote the exact points I'm replying to. 

What would I be saying if Bair missed those chances? I'd actually be impressed. Because for him to miss those chances would mean he'd managed to find his way into the position of actually getting them to begin with. Bair can go through almost entire games and not register a single shot on target. You know the old saying. You miss 100% of the chances you don't take. Or in his case, the chances you don't get to begin with.

Both Shaw and Wilkinson, from what I've seen, and their career history, look to me like players who could get us between 7 to 10 league goals if they were given a decent run in the team, which is around average for a decent striker at our level. They've shown in the past that they know how to score goals, and you can see that when they have appeared for us. 

Sure, they miss chances. All strikers do. But the fact they actually find themselves in a position to get those chances is enough for me to want to see them play. 

They came on late in the game when our midfield was basically fucked. They'd been trying to cope with a much better quality of player all game, plus they were being relied upon to pose any kind of forward threat. 

Look, all I'll say in closing is that I was critical of us signing Bair at the start of the season. I was told not to be critical until we'd at least seen him play. Now I'm being told that, after seeing him play, my criticism, which is based entirely on his abilities as a player, is "irrational" and a "personal vendetta."

When we continue to play a striker who never even looks like scoring, I'm going to voice my concerns. It's as simple as that. If people don't like it? Keep scrolling. 

There’s not really any debate about Bair though, is there? Everybody agrees with just about everything you have posted. From his previous record, to the fact his signing made no sense, to the fact he would not be anywhere near first choice had anyone else been available or showed any ability to score goals. You have more than justified your criticism and backed it up. If you care to scroll back you will see that, when he signed, I agreed with your concerns. I still do, although I acknowledge what he does add to the team in the absence of a better option. 

But having expressed your views my point is that you appear unable to let it go until such time as the situation resolves itself one way or another. And that is Steelboy like. So, no, my observation was not “a lazy attempt at shutting down debate”. It was a way of saying that there is no debate and repeating those concerns time and time again is pointless. Again, nobody really disagrees with you. So you are debating with yourself. 
But ok, as far as Bair is concerned, unless the situation changes I’ll keep on scrolling. 

[santheman]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:15 PM, TwistAndShout said:

I'm told that the forced their way through a turnstile and then kicked open an emergency exit to allow a very large number of ticketless fans in. In doing so, a police officer was injured and an elderly steward was caught in the stampede and kicked in the jaw. So the stand was over occupied by quite a bit.

This is not the first time they've done this, which begs the question as to why the club and police were not set up to deal with it. And also why the game was allowed to go ahead with such a safety issue.

Add in the 3 pitch invasions, the usual theft of at least one match ball and bizarrely a corner flag and it's hard to fathom how they get away with all of this.

The invasion by the Bois I felt was stupid, but I was also kind of glad they did this time. Any criticism can be put right back on to Brendan's defence of the incident at Livingston - which also encouraged the Celtic fans on Saturday as he'd effectively told them it was fine. The Motherwell fans were generally young boys, but the Celtic fans who confronted players and got as far as the half way line were grown men, some of whom looked old enough to be grandparents. 

Caught the boy trying to pinch one of the match balls going out the disabled entrance.

Steward done a great job stopping him.