Livingston v Motherwell 07/10/2023

[SteelmaninOZ]

Will we win on their beautiful flat smooth pitch?

What say you?

COYW 

[grizzlyg]

A tough game on that horrible surface but a win would be excellent to end the run of 3 defeats. Hopefully take a good support through also

[SteelmaninOZ]

Just now, grizzlyg said:

A tough game on that horrible surface but a win would be excellent to end the run of 3 defeats. Hopefully take a good support through also

That’s the spirit 🥃 mate

[Ya Bezzer!]

Livingston have only lost to Old Firm this season and have 4 draws out of 7 in the league this term.  

I think that kind of sums them up.

I'm an admirer of David Martindale, I think he does an excellent job at Livingston, and this will likely be a tight and scrappy match.

 

[GazzyB]

0-0

[MJC]

I’d imagine our claret away shirt with the amber diagonal band across the front will get its debut here.

We could really do with a win but I think 0-0 is a good shout for this one.

[wellfan]

I don't see us scoring unless it comes from a midfielder, but I also don't see us conceding in this game. 

0-0 or 0-1 (Spittal). 

[MFCL84]

I'm confident of a victory in this one. I actually think that it will be quite comfortable. I'll go for 2-0 to the Well.

[David]

The question is, who plays up front? If it's Bair then we need to rely on our midfield not only doing their job in their own area of the park but also scoring goals. If Bair is going to be effective we need to play a striker who knows how to score goals up front with him, to benefit from the much-ballyhooed knockdowns and work rate. 

Doing that means dropping a midfielder though, which isn't ideal.

I'd drop Bair for Wilkinson if he's fit. We need a goal threat further up the park that isn't a midfielder. 

[MelvinBragg]

18 minutes ago, David said:

The question is, who plays up front? 

As long as it's not Oli Shaw...

[weeyin]

We lost Butcher because of that joke of a playing surface. 

No doubt they will keep it dry and sticky to reduce the possibility of making any kind of pass. 

I hope we beat them and they don't win another home game all season. 

[stv]

4 hours ago, David said:

The question is, who plays up front? If it's Bair then we need to rely on our midfield not only doing their job in their own area of the park but also scoring goals. If Bair is going to be effective we need to play a striker who knows how to score goals up front with him, to benefit from the much-ballyhooed knockdowns and work rate. 

Doing that means dropping a midfielder though, which isn't ideal.

I'd drop Bair for Wilkinson if he's fit. We need a goal threat further up the park that isn't a midfielder. 

Wilkinson looks as athletic as a pensioner wi bronchitis. Don’t like the look of him at all from what iv seen so far.

A win and no injuries please.

[well_said]

4 minutes ago, stv said:

Wilkinson looks as athletic as a pensioner wi bronchitis. Don’t like the look of him at all from what iv seen so far.

A win and no injuries please.

You're being extremely disrespectful to pensioners.

[David]

Just now, stv said:

Wilkinson looks as athletic as a pensioner wi bronchitis. Don’t like the look of him at all from what iv seen so far.

He's scored twice as many goals as Bair, in fewer games and without getting a real proper run of games. He's also scored over 50 goals in his career, so he at least knows where the net is. 

Again, I've heard it said constantly that Bair is being played because there are no other options, he's fourth choice and so on.

But he isn't, is he? He wouldn't be playing ahead of Wilkinson or Shaw if he is. Like them or not, they have proven that they know how to score goals. 

If our plan is to have a striker who doesn't score goals, and who isn't expected to score goals, but instead lump the goal responsibilities onto Slattery and Spittal, I think we're going to run into problems eventually. 

We need to choose between playing two up front, one of which I assume will be our fourth choice project and someone else who can score goals, or playing a lone striker. Who that lone striker should be? Who knows.

[texanwellfan]

It may depend who we have available and who we are playing so it might chop and change as the season goes on. 

[joewarkfanclub]

6 hours ago, David said:

The question is, who plays up front? If it's Bair then we need to rely on our midfield not only doing their job in their own area of the park but also scoring goals. If Bair is going to be effective we need to play a striker who knows how to score goals up front with him, to benefit from the much-ballyhooed knockdowns and work rate. 

Doing that means dropping a midfielder though, which isn't ideal.

I'd drop Bair for Wilkinson if he's fit. We need a goal threat further up the park that isn't a midfielder. 

Wilkinson is just coming back from injury. I wouldnt have him near that pitch! He also isnt that mobile and I wouldnt suggest best suited to the lone striker role. If we are swapping Bair out for anyone, I would put Ollie Shaw in.  But given SK has been very loyal to the players thus far, Id expect the same 11 to start again.

Our record v Livvy is very good. I forecast a return to winning ways, but a more scrappy encounter with us winning 1-0.

[Ya Bezzer!]

I suspect Bair in first choice for the long haul.

I don't see Kettlewell dropping any of the midfielders and our other strikers aren't suitable for playing to the game plan we've shown so far.

8 hours ago, David said:

If our plan is to have a striker who doesn't score goals, and who isn't expected to score goals, but instead lump the goal responsibilities onto Slattery and Spittal, I think we're going to run into problems eventually. 

I think that is Kettlewell's plan.

Bair is there to take up a space in front of the centre backs and we get midfielders beyond him into the box.  That's the tactic with this squad for this season.

[Kmcalpin]

3 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I suspect Bair in first choice for the long haul.

I don't see Kettlewell dropping any of the midfielders and our other strikers aren't suitable for playing to the game plan we've shown so far.

I think that is Kettlewell's plan.

Bair is there to take up a space in front of the centre backs and we get midfielders beyond him into the box.  That's the tactic with this squad for this season.

IF thats the case, then the midfielders will need to step up their, admittedly impressive game, in terms of finishing.

[joewarkfanclub]

6 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I suspect Bair in first choice for the long haul.

I don't see Kettlewell dropping any of the midfielders and our other strikers aren't suitable for playing to the game plan we've shown so far.

I think that is Kettlewell's plan.

Bair is there to take up a space in front of the centre backs and we get midfielders beyond him into the box.  That's the tactic with this squad for this season.

I think that is definitely the current plan.

As I said in the Celtic matchday thread, there are many different ways to play football now. Not comparing us to Man City, but look at the way Pep keeps re-inventing the way they play to gain an adavantage over the opposition. They may have the best striker in world football right nie, but look at the goals they get from midfield even when Haaland isnt scoring. 

Even at international level, look at the success Clarke has had with Scotland using Dykes up top and getting the likes of McGinn, McTominay and Christie into the box.

Its often harder to defend against midfielders arriving into the box late. If you cant afford a quality striker, its definitely a good way of trying to redress the balance.

Of course teams will eventually work out a way of stopping that and who knows that mught already have happened with us. But SK has shown he is prepared to change it up when necessary. Maybe not as quickly as I would like at times, but he certainly isnt as rigid as Alexander and Hammell were.

[David]

That kind of system works because they're all using midfielders who, and I apologise if this seems negative, are really good at that kind of thing, coupled with players in the forward position that actually still scored goals.

There was mention of Dykes and how he is used for Scotland. Dykes scores goals. He's hit double figures in two seasons in the English Championship, and also in his lone season in the Scottish Premiership.

Comparisons with City don't hold up either, even if we use perspective for the obviously differing levels. Whenever Pep played with the midfielders coming into scoring positions, he used actual goal threats in the lone forward position. Be it Mahrez or Sterling. What he didn't use was a big lump who's only decent at passing and knockdowns.

It's also worth noting that even in those seasons where City employed that system, the guy who was playing the lone forward role actually scored a lot of their goals. Be it Mahrez, Sterling, Ferran Torres, or Gabriel Jesus.

I will say it again, if our tactics for this season are using a striker who doesn't score goals providing knockdowns for two midfielders who really aren't known for their goalscoring abilities, we're going to run into trouble.

Teams already know Bair poses virtually no threat in front of goal. So their defenders don't need to really worry about him getting the ball and causing damage. All they need to do is keep an eye on the midfielders coming forward and look for Bair playing his passes to them.

That kind of system works when the opposition has to deal with goalscoring midfielders coming in from deep, plus deal with a forward who may not be an out-and-out striker, but who is also dangerous in front of goal.

Whichever way we slice it, be it two up top, or one up front and asking the midfielders to chip in with goals, we need to employ a striker who actually scores some goals. It doesn't need to be Van Veen last season level. But they need to pose a threat and actually look like they could score goals.

I'm all for using a system where we don't rely on a single person hitting 15-20 goals a season because we rarely have a striker of that ability at our club, but there's a difference between asking the midfield to chip in and get more goals than they might usually get alongside a striker who can even hit between 9-11 or so, and asking the midfielders to basically supply the vast majority of our goals.

In previous seasons we've had Tony Watt, Devante Cole, and Van Veen provide between 9-12 goals in a season. That surely isn't unreasonable? Unless our budget is markedly lower than it was those seasons, why can't we bring in someone of that level again? Why are we saying all we can afford now is the equivalent of the guys we'd bring in late on to make up the numbers usually? 

In previous seasons guys like Obika, Shaw, and Wilkinson would be extra bodies to fill out the squad. They'd be players brought in to cover for the likes of Van Veen, Watt, Woolery etc. The young lad from Arsenal would have been a bonus, someone who can hopefully do a job for us. But we're all seemingly pinning our hopes on a kid who's played 15 senior games coming back from injury and being our main striker. 

And I know it really annoys people, but I'll say it again. In previous seasons someone like Bair wouldn't have even been under consideration. 

I'm trying to work out if our budget is dramatically reduced to the point where the squad filler of two seasons ago is now our first team players, or if our scouting and player identification just isn't at the level it used to be? It has to be one or the other.

And I also know that some people don't like it when I post a lot of words, so I'll end it there. 

[weeyin]

I think we need to be playing 2 strikers as soon as we have 2 fit strikers available.

[David]

30 minutes ago, weeyin said:

I think we need to be playing 2 strikers as soon as we have 2 fit strikers available.

We do. We could be playing with Bair and Shaw. But who do we drop from midfield to accommodate?

[gaz7]

29 minutes ago, weeyin said:

I think we need to be playing 2 strikers as soon as we have 2 fit strikers available.

I feel he will go with 2 strikers against livi. St mirren were better side v us in cup game with their 3421 and sk dealt with this by matching up against them in league and whilst result was not success the performance obviously gave him hope to continue with it against glasgow 2 where our extra man in midfield helped to give us our best performances against them in years.

Lennon miller I feel was a wee bit slow on Saturday and I am certainly not criticising him as he is our great white hope and on the plastic pitch if its sticky he could get targeted by livi so I have a feeling he might get a wee rest 

Lot of talk about this and that required and some slagging of players and even manager which is what a forum is all about I suppose . I am certainly in glass half full camp and up to now 4th equal with bottom 3 still to play plus adeen for 1st run of fixtures I'll stick my neck out and predict we will be 3rd by end of 1st round of 11 games.

Lots to be pleased about and this is our best team since turnbull arriyibi campbell etc

[joewarkfanclub]

34 minutes ago, David said:

That kind of system works because they're all using midfielders who, and I apologise if this seems negative, are really good at that kind of thing, coupled with players in the forward position that actually still scored goals.

There was mention of Dykes and how he is used for Scotland. Dykes scores goals. He's hit double figures in two seasons in the English Championship, and also in his lone season in the Scottish Premiership.

Comparisons with City don't hold up either, even if we use perspective for the obviously differing levels. Whenever Pep played with the midfielders coming into scoring positions, he used actual goal threats in the lone forward position. Be it Mahrez or Sterling. What he didn't use was a big lump who's only decent at passing and knockdowns.

It's also worth noting that even in those seasons where City employed that system, the guy who was playing the lone forward role actually scored a lot of their goals. Be it Mahrez, Sterling, Ferran Torres, or Gabriel Jesus.

I will say it again, if our tactics for this season are using a striker who doesn't score goals providing knockdowns for two midfielders who really aren't known for their goalscoring abilities, we're going to run into trouble.

Teams already know Bair poses virtually no threat in front of goal. So their defenders don't need to really worry about him getting the ball and causing damage. All they need to do is keep an eye on the midfielders coming forward and look for Bair playing his passes to them.

That kind of system works when the opposition has to deal with goalscoring midfielders coming in from deep, plus deal with a forward who may not be an out-and-out striker, but who is also dangerous in front of goal.

Whichever way we slice it, be it two up top, or one up front and asking the midfielders to chip in with goals, we need to employ a striker who actually scores some goals. It doesn't need to be Van Veen last season level. But they need to pose a threat and actually look like they could score goals.

I'm all for using a system where we don't rely on a single person hitting 15-20 goals a season because we rarely have a striker of that ability at our club, but there's a difference between asking the midfield to chip in and get more goals than they might usually get alongside a striker who can even hit between 9-11 or so, and asking the midfielders to basically supply the vast majority of our goals.

In previous seasons we've had Tony Watt, Devante Cole, and Van Veen provide between 9-12 goals in a season. That surely isn't unreasonable? Unless our budget is markedly lower than it was those seasons, why can't we bring in someone of that level again? Why are we saying all we can afford now is the equivalent of the guys we'd bring in late on to make up the numbers usually? 

In previous seasons guys like Obika, Shaw, and Wilkinson would be extra bodies to fill out the squad. They'd be players brought in to cover for the likes of Van Veen, Watt, Woolery etc. The young lad from Arsenal would have been a bonus, someone who can hopefully do a job for us. But we're all seemingly pinning our hopes on a kid who's played 15 senior games coming back from injury and being our main striker. 

And I know it really annoys people, but I'll say it again. In previous seasons someone like Bair wouldn't have even been under consideration. 

I'm trying to work out if our budget is dramatically reduced to the point where the squad filler of two seasons ago is now our first team players, or if our scouting and player identification just isn't at the level it used to be? It has to be one or the other.

And I also know that some people don't like it when I post a lot of words, so I'll end it there. 

Nothing wrong with a lot of words, and its hard to argue with many of the points you make. I think the only huge difference between your position and mine is one of perspective. 

Mines is that Bair was never the plan. In fact I dont think 1 up top was even the plan. We have been forced into it because our other options have been injured. We just happen to have stumbled onto the 4 in midfield out of necessity and it has had some success.

For me I think Obika could get 10 goals a season in this team. The big problem is will he ever be on the pitch long enough to do that? Given the discussion previously surrounding Moult, I think criticism of SK in that regard is fair game, particularly in light of the length of his contract.

Ive no idea whether Ollie Shaw or Wilkinson can score 10 goals or not but they need a run of games for us to find out.

Clearly our budget has been significantly reduced in recent seasons, so it stands to reason the quality of player available to us has gone down and our managers have to be more resourceful. I think thats where loans for players like Biereth can be useful.

Looking around the league I dont see too many other clubs with our budget signing players of a calibre that Ive thought wow! Wish we had got him! So I think we need to modify our expectations a little and hope that going forward SK can find another gold nugget from somewhere.

 

[David]

3 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Nothing wrong with a lot of words, and its hard to argue with many of the points you make. I think the only huge difference between your position and mine is one of perspective. 

Mines is that Bair was never the plan. In fact I dont think 1 up top was even the plan. We have been forced into it because our other options have been injured. We just happen to have stumbled onto the 4 in midfield out of necessity and it has had some success.

For me I think Obika could get 10 goals a season in this team. The big problem is will he ever be on the pitch long enough to do that? Given the discussion previously surrounding Moult, I think criticism of SK in that regard is fair game, particularly in light of the length of his contract.

Ive no idea whether Ollie Shaw or Wilkinson can score 10 goals or not but they need a run of games for us to find out.

Clearly our budget has been significantly reduced in recent seasons, so it stands to reason the quality of player available to us has gone down and our managers have to be more resourceful. I think thats where loans for players like Biereth can be useful.

Looking around the league I dont see too many other clubs with our budget signing players of a calibre that Ive thought wow! Wish we had got him! So I think we need to modify our expectations a little and hope that going forward SK can find another gold nugget from somewhere.

I'm fully in agreement that we need to give Shaw and/or Wilkinson an extended opportunity. Either on their own or even with Bair. Like I said, he's good at certain things, but those things don't include being a goal threat, and we need that from our forward line. Teams who don't score goals end up in the shit.

Could we run with Shaw and Bair up top? That would mean dropping a midfielder. Who gets dropped? And can the forwards then chip in to help cover that man less in midfield when we're under pressure? 

If and when Wilkinson, Obika and Biereth regain full fitness we can see what they have to offer. 

But, we need to be in a position to get goals against Livingston, St Johnstone, and Ross County. And we know that Martindale and Malky Mackay in particular will have seen how we're playing just now and will know that if we run the same team as we did against Rangers and Celtic, they'll know they just have to swamp the midfield and stop Slattery and/or Spittal from getting into advanced positions too often.