Refereeing Inconsistencies

[Kmcalpin]

Although I haven't yet seen TV highlights of yesterday's game, I don't think the referee made any game changing howlers. However the level of inconsistency in his and his assistants game management was staggering. By their nature they can't be attributed to split second decision making. This set the tone for the entire game.  Some examples:

* Callum Slattery complains to the linesman that an opponent hasn't retreated 10 yards at a free kick - it clearly looked to be about 7. The official, standing about 10 feet away, waves away his protest.

* Players stealing 5/6/7/8/9 yards at throws in all game and he randomly pulls up Stephen O'Donnell for stealing maybe 3/4 yards.

* Brown goes down with a seemingly serious head knock requiring treatment but isn't required to leave the field.

* The game is stopped for a County player to receive treatment about 2 feet from the touchline (he's on his feet and well able to walk).

No single incident, taken on its own, warrants outrage, but over the course of a game they do matter cumulatively.

I appreciate neither set of players were blameless.

[wellfan]

Yesterday was a weird one. For the most part, I thought the ref was generally okay and was trying to let the game flow. At the same time, however, I also thought the overall quality/consistency of officiating and the use of VAR was bewilderingly frustrating. 

It's pretty clear that Scottish refs are more or less rubbish, and that VAR has arguably now made things worse. Yesterday could be used as a case study to demonstrate that reality. 

[MJC]

VAR in Scottish football was always going to be a disaster. It’s bad enough everywhere else in world football so in the shambling, amateurish, half arsed incompetent two-bit world of not just Scottish football but Scotland as a whole then it was always going to reflect how bad everything Scottish football/Scotland does. I don’t know why anyone is surprised by how bad VAR has made things.

[steelboy]

The ref in the Killie Vs Aberdeen game just ignored one of the most blatant back passes you'll ever see. 

The standard of reffing is terrible at the moment. It's definitely been made worse by VAR, the Ryan Strain handball Vs Rangers the other week was somehow missed by all three on the pitch officials. They seem to be instructed to give as little as possible and VAR will pick up the decisions that might get a mention on Sportscene. 

[Mad Dog]

I thought that the referee was okay but the VAR officials less so.

I must be difficult for the referee when there are teams like County who will feign injury at every opportunity - Brown who appeared to have cut his finger but refused to leave the field and then with the 'head injury' that made him fly two feet off the ground. There was also someone else on the opposite side whose theatrics got Spittal riled up.

I'd like Kevin Bridges to be on VAR duty telling the referee "get him tae fuck", "never touched him", "cheating wee fanny", etc.

And give us an audio feed too like they have in the rugby.

[Kmcalpin]

10 minutes ago, steelboy said:

The ref in the Killie Vs Aberdeen game just ignored one of the most blatant back passes you'll ever see.

A blatant passback ignored yesterday as well.

[2/6 tae get in]

53 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

A blatant passback ignored yesterday as well.

Was that the pass back that O,Donnell made to the County keeper 🤔

[weeyin]

5 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

A blatant passback ignored yesterday as well.

I can't remember the last time I saw a passback foul given in a game. The refs always seem to give the benefit of the doubt.

As for VAR, I didn't want it in and I'll be happy to see it go.

I don't think it's reduced the number of wrong decisions, it feels like we're just seeing a different set of wrong decisions. 

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, weeyin said:

I can't remember the last time I saw a passback foul given in a game. The refs always seem to give the benefit of the doubt.

As for VAR, I didn't want it in and I'll be happy to see it go.

I don't think it's reduced the number of wrong decisions, it feels like we're just seeing a different set of wrong decisions. 

Agree totally.

Add to that the fact that it is costing Clubs a fortune, only to be left even more confused and angry than they were before VAR was introduced. Those costs are only going to increase.

From a fan perspective, the uncertainty it brings is spoiling what is meant to be spontaneous celebration. Communication was a farce yesterday. I think the Premier League in England are into year 4 and the errors there are becoming worse and more frequent. So don't expect any improvement up here either. 

Referees all make errors. But it is actually worse when the VAR officials are the ones making errors, despite having resources and time not available to referees. And if referees and VAR officials agree, why is there a need for an appeals process. More cash down the drain. That alone suggests the powers that be expect their employees to get it horribly wrong.

[Kmcalpin]

I won't go into detail about last night as thats not why we lost. However timekeeping was an absolute joke. In the first half, there was a minimum  of 3 minutes to be added and its doubtful if they were played in full. Add to that a bad injury and we ended up playing about 2 and half minutes.

Second half: 4 minues added on (we estimated about 8 or more probably 9). Blatant time wasting, 4 goals, injuries, and 7 subs. How does that stack up?

OK the game wasn't on a scoreline knife edge - a good job it wasn't. 

Much too long for many!!

[Spiderpig]

9 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I won't go into detail about last night as thats not why we lost. However timekeeping was an absolute joke. In the first half, there was a minimum  of 3 minutes to be added and its doubtful if they were played in full. Add to that a bad injury and we ended up playing about 2 and half minutes.

Second half: 4 minues added on (we estimated about 8 or more probably 9). Blatant time wasting, 4 goals, injuries, and 7 subs. How does that stack up?

OK the game wasn't on a scoreline knife edge - a good job it wasn't. 

Much too long for many!!

Spot on Dave, time keeping has always been an issue the single best thing Fifa / Uefa could do is copy American football and remove the timekeeping from the ref on the field, so when the game stops the clock stops etc that would stop all the blatant time wasting,  feigning injuries etc.

[numpty]

22 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Spot on Dave, time keeping has always been an issue the single best thing Fifa / Uefa could do is copy American football and remove the timekeeping from the ref on the field, so when the game stops the clock stops etc that would stop all the blatant time wasting,  feigning injuries etc.

In last season's EPL, the ball was in play for an average of 55 minutes, so you'd end up playing anything up to 20 minutes of stoppage time in each half. Would either have to come up with some other definition of "when the game stops", or reduce the length of a half from 45 to 30 minutes. (And people would still find plenty to complain about in both those scenarios, I'm sure.)

[Kmcalpin]

19 minutes ago, numpty said:

In last season's EPL, the ball was in play for an average of 55 minutes, so you'd end up playing anything up to 20 minutes of stoppage time in each half. Would either have to come up with some other definition of "when the game stops", or reduce the length of a half from 45 to 30 minutes. (And people would still find plenty to complain about in both those scenarios, I'm sure.)

I get what you're saying but the current system, or implementation of it is neither one thing nor the other. Either play 90 minutes end of come what may or add an appropriate amount of time.   I know its extreme, but if refs were to be pernickety, it would certainly cut down the amount of time wasting and injury feigning drastically. I'm not suggesting time be added for periods out of play at throw ins or by kicks, unless its excessive. There's a happy medium. Other measures could also be taken to speed up the game such as obligatory booking players who deliberately boot the ball away after play has stopped. Players who get in the ref's face and argue endlessly - Shinnie last night for example. Just card them and move on.    

[dennyc]

6 minutes ago, numpty said:

In last season's EPL, the ball was in play for an average of 55 minutes, so you'd end up playing anything up to 20 minutes of stoppage time in each half. Would either have to come up with some other definition of "when the game stops", or reduce the length of a half from 45 to 30 minutes. (And people would still find plenty to complain about in both those scenarios, I'm sure.)

They tried something similar in the World Cup but more or less abandoned it in the knock out stages. Poor wee souls were knackered having to play an extra 20/25 minutes on average. At knock out stage the possibility of two halves of extra time could have resulted in even more game time. Then penalties. So common sense prevailed to a degree. And in England they have quietly cut back on added time compared to the start of the season. At least it feels that way.

But something does need to be done. Maybe a mix of controls. How about an independent timekeeper recording time lost at a goal, VAR check, Red Card, Subs and injury stoppages where a trainer is needed. Take that time keeping away from the referee to ensure accuracy.  Let the Referee continue to manage time wasting on the park, but with no leeway given whatsoever for delaying tactics at free kicks, throw ins and goal kicks. The independent timekeeper effectively decides add on time. Once it becomes the norm for ALL referees to issue yellow cards the time wasting will stop. Even Craig Gordan and Liam Kelly would soon get the message.  Of course the referees would require to be monitored to ensure consistency which is another matter. 

But in reality nothing will be done.

[well_said]

2 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

Spot on Dave, time keeping has always been an issue the single best thing Fifa / Uefa could do is copy American football and remove the timekeeping from the ref on the field, so when the game stops the clock stops etc that would stop all the blatant time wasting,  feigning injuries 

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

They tried something similar in the World Cup but more or less abandoned it in the knock out stages. Poor wee souls were knackered having to play an extra 20/25 minutes on average. At knock out stage the possibility of two halves of extra time could have resulted in even more game time. Then penalties. So common sense prevailed to a degree. And in England they have quietly cut back on added time compared to the start of the season. At least it feels that way.

But something does need to be done. Maybe a mix of controls. How about an independent timekeeper recording time lost at a goal, VAR check, Red Card, Subs and injury stoppages where a trainer is needed. Take that time keeping away from the referee to ensure accuracy.  Let the Referee continue to manage time wasting on the park, but with no leeway given whatsoever for delaying tactics at free kicks, throw ins and goal kicks. The independent timekeeper effectively decides add on time. Once it becomes the norm for ALL referees to issue yellow cards the time wasting will stop. Even Craig Gordan and Liam Kelly would soon get the message.  Of course the referees would require to be monitored to ensure consistency which is another matter. 

But in reality nothing will be done.

Kelly time wastes when we're four goals behind FFS.

 

[texanwellfan]

2 hours ago, numpty said:

In last season's EPL, the ball was in play for an average of 55 minutes, so you'd end up playing anything up to 20 minutes of stoppage time in each half. Would either have to come up with some other definition of "when the game stops", or reduce the length of a half from 45 to 30 minutes. (And people would still find plenty to complain about in both those scenarios, I'm sure.)

I like the idea of a separate time keeper or game clock. I’m sure they could come up with a set of rules for when clock stops and starts and game at ends at 90 mins regardless of what’s happening(just like it used to be) and the clock should be available for all to see. (Perhaps just having the clock displayed for all to see might be albthats required?

clock stops for below and starts again when play resumes, maybe not a perfect List but simple and captures the vast majority of the time taken up when the game is actually stopped  

injury, sub, goal, var review, 

[well_said]

Watched livi v rangers , ref played 5 mins stoppage time in the first half and 9minutes second half. Compare that with our game yesterday 2 mins first half and 5 second half yet no more var checks than our game . Referees in this country are a joke.

Edited November 13, 2023 by well_said
Typo

[Kmcalpin]

4 hours ago, well_said said:

Watched livi v rangers , ref played 5 mins stoppage time in the first half and 9minutes second half. Compare that with our game yesterday 2 mins first half and 9 second half yet no more var checks than our game . Referees in this country are a joke.

I agree with your overall point but thought that we played 5 additional minutes yesterday in the second half, as that was what was announced. I didn't actually time the proceedings though. Typo?

[well_said]

28 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I agree with your overall point but thought that we played 5 additional minutes yesterday in the second half, as that was what was announced. I didn't actually time the proceedings though. Typo?

Yes a typo should have put 5. I will have to start checking before posting.

[Jastons]

7 hours ago, well_said said:

Watched livi v rangers , ref played 5 mins stoppage time in the first half and 9minutes second half. Compare that with our game yesterday 2 mins first half and 9 second half yet no more var checks than our game . Referees in this country are a joke.

I remember thinking at the time that 2 minutes wasn't enough time added after the first half .

[pretzel]

I wonder what is classed as an accidental handball these days. If we go back to the County game the ball hits the outstretched hand of their player which then falls kindly for him to set up Brophy for the goal all this right under the nose of the lineman and ref. I understand the reasoning behind Wilkinson's goal being disallowed against St Johnstone despite the ball being blasted at him in close proximity. Long story short, on Saturday Bair had the ball blasted at him at close range and the ball hit his leg and then arm then fell kindly at his feet, and just as it looked like he was going to set up a 'Well player for a shot at goal the ref blew for a handball but if a defender were to do that in his box it wouldn't be a penalty or such. 

[pretzel]

Against Livingston at the weekend Shaw was booted in the face at standing height, we got a foul but no card. In the St Midden game vs Celtic atm, Joe Hart dives down but gets a boot to the mush, goes to VAR then guys sent packing. Both should merit a red surely. 

[well_said]

The key word in your post is Celtic.

[weeyin]

35 minutes ago, pretzel said:

Against Livingston at the weekend Shaw was booted in the face at standing height, we got a foul but no card. In the St Midden game vs Celtic atm, Joe Hart dives down but gets a boot to the mush, goes to VAR then guys sent packing. Both should merit a red surely. 

What's even more annoying is that you know if Hart (or any other keeper) had kicked a striker in the face who had lowered his head, he wouldn't even have been booked.

[Orinoco]

said it in the livingston game thread about shaw being kicked in the head. Is anyone really suprised at the lack of consistancy?