Kilmarnock v Motherwell 04/11/2023

[wellfan]

5 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

I don't think for a moment players have downed tools , more lack of confidence and lots of individual errors.

And how will SK address that? By changing the personnel and formation yet again on Tuesday? He needs to get back to basics or he'll lose his job.

[bobbybingo]

Just now, wellfan said:

Inspirational stuff.

I think we're past the inspirational stage as far as fans are concerned. Anything he said after the game was gonnae piss folk off. It's simple  - Kettlewell and the players need to start picking up points, whatever way they can, because words are literally pointless now.

[Kmcalpin]

Just read a post on P & B. Wilkinson and Bair weren't played out wide were they?

[MJC]

14 hours ago, steelboy said:

I don't really understand what you are talking about here. The last two times we changed manager almost everyone agreed both interim managers had earned the job. Prior to that we brought in Alexander who is known for falling out with people and had a decent record. Our transfer policy did change under Alexander and it wasn't spectacular but it got us the required results then he went off the boil and was looking for an exit. That's fitba.

Being Motherwell manager isn't complicated and it's not about making demands of the board. There's a budget for players, the manager needs to try and dig out a few gems, everyone accepts form will fluctuate but if you hit serious relegation form then it's out the door. If Kettlewell had just signed a few competent players on permanent deals to go into the starting 11 this summer he wouldn't be in this position. I don't think it's overly ambitious to hope for a manager who understands that starting SOD and Bair every week will get you into relegation trouble.

Firstly I would disagree that “almost everyone agreed both interim managers had earned the job” especially in Hammell’s case. Even SK was handed the job pretty much straight away on the back of two wins iirc. Towards the end of Hammell’s tenure it was clear that the players had lost faith in him and for whatever reason weren’t playing for him. Kettlewell came in and seemed to transform a good few over night but now it looks like they are downing tools for him too which obviously points to an issue with player attitudes but also weak management.

Secondly as you yourself mentioned after the St.Mirren cup loss a few months back, there is little to zero expectation or scrutiny on Motherwell managers from within the club. It’s as if we are happy to just bumble along aimlessly in the hope of avoiding relegation and nothing else. With largely the same people who appointed Hammell and then Kettlewell in charge what makes you think that they will make the right choice, a different type of choice this time around? They were stung by Alexander who proved to be a poor manager with a surly divisive attitude so who does that leave? As I said we’re never going to see our board go for a Neil Lennon or Paul Lambert type. Even someone like Derek McInnes at Kilmarnock, a similar sized club to us is an appointment we could only dream of.
 

[joewarkfanclub]

14 hours ago, robsterwood said:

He didnt drop Bair?

My bad. I meant Mugabi but was thinking about Bair and typed his name instead.

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 hour ago, MJC said:

As I said we’re never going to see our board go for a Neil Lennon or Paul Lambert type. Even someone like Derek McInnes at Kilmarnock, a similar sized club to us is an appointment we could only dream of.
 

We are never going to see our board go for a Neil Lennon or Paul Lambert type because they wouldn't touch the job with a barge pole.

Scottish football is skint.  We are the poor relations of lower league English football these days.

 

[MJC]

21 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

We are never going to see our board go for a Neil Lennon or Paul Lambert type because they wouldn't touch the job with a barge pole.

Scottish football is skint.  We are the poor relations of lower league English football these days.

 

Well they certainly wouldn’t touch our job with a bargepole. Other clubs our size like Killie or St.Mirren? I’m not so sure. As I said Killie managed to land McInnes, something we wouldn’t have a hope in hell of doing. 

[bobbybingo]

9 minutes ago, MJC said:

Well they certainly wouldn’t touch our job with a bargepole. Other clubs our size like Killie or St.Mirren? I’m not so sure. As I said Killie managed to land McInnes, something we wouldn’t have a hope in hell of doing. 

Kilmarnock are obviously happy to spend more money on a manager and go with that monstrosity of a pitch. I'm not sure which St Mirren managers you think we couldn't have attracted.

[MJC]

And do Kilmarnock really have a bigger budget than we do? Or a budget that is significantly bigger enough to attract a McInnes type manager?

Or are we just unable or unwilling to push the boat out a bit more and are instead happy enough with our status as a two-bit tinpot no mark of a club who have zero ambition whatsoever?

[SteelmaninOZ]

 

[ppower]

18 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Thought it was quite a bold team selection from SK today. Wasnt really sure what it was going to look like, but he did what a lot of fans were asking for by dropping SOD, Slattery and Bair.

It was clear from the outset that he picked a team to combat the pitch and try and keep us competitive in the match.

For the most part it worked. We looked more solid in defence and didnt cough up any easy chances in the first half. We made Kilmarnock work for them and they didnt have a shot at goal for the first 30 mins.

Not going to say I was pleased at the style of our football or that we created a raft of chances, but today for me was about playing the circumstances, so I wasnt that unhappy at half time.

That all changed with the goal. We got a warning just minutes before when we failed to defend a cross into the box and the Killie player headed straight at Kelly.

We didnt heed that warning and again got caught in the transition with Kelly spilling a very easy take and none of our defenders making any response to allow Cameron an easy finish.

After that it became very much more open as we yet again chased the game.

It was clear the players were under instruction to play it long, so it was somewhat ironic that our best play and chances actually came when we got the ball down and played football.

Over the piece Killie deserved to win. But it was another game of fine margins where poor decisions from the manager and players have contributed our own downfall.

Thats now 7 without a win. We are still in the pack and a couple of positive results would take the pressure off. But every game that passes without that win will just keep heaping on the pressure.

Tuesday night now becomes huge.

I would love to know who you think we are going to beat. As far as I can see it is the old problem can't score and can't stop teams scoring against us. Teams only need 1 goal to beat us. Prediction for you. St Johnstone beat us midweek. In their last game after sacking McLean the beat Killie 2-1. On the verge of appointing Levein as their manager. To be honest they are no worse than us and will have home advantage.

[joewarkfanclub]

14 minutes ago, ppower said:

I would love to know who you think we are going to beat. As far as I can see it is the old problem can't score and can't stop teams scoring against us. Teams only need 1 goal to beat us. Prediction for you. St Johnstone beat us midweek. In their last game after sacking McLean the beat Killie 2-1. On the verge of appointing Levein as their manager. To be honest they are no worse than us and will have home advantage.

Outwith Celtic and Rangers, I think any of the teams can beat each other.

We havent won in 7 games, yet we are sitting in the middle of the table in a group seperated by 3 points.

That shows that the form and results of the other teams hasnt really been any better than ours, otherwise we would be cast adrift already.

The longer it goes on however, the more pressure will mount and confidence will drop off.

Particularly if we were to lose to St Johnstone on Tuesday and they get back within touching distance of everyone else.

Dont get me wrong, I am concerned about this slump, and it needs to he reversed soon, so Tuesday would be a good place to start.

[wunderwell]

51 minutes ago, MJC said:

And do Kilmarnock really have a bigger budget than we do? Or a budget that is significantly bigger enough to attract a McInnes type manager?

Or are we just unable or unwilling to push the boat out a bit more and are instead happy enough with our status as a two-bit tinpot no mark of a club who have zero ambition whatsoever?

Who finished higher in the league last season? Who was in the play off?

Bunch of panic merchants in here.

[MJC]

15 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

Who finished higher in the league last season? Who was in the play off?

Bunch of panic merchants in here.

Who has won two trophys since we last managed it in 1991? Us or Kilmarnock?

Who has beaten Rangers several times in the league since 2002? Us or Kilmarnock?

The answer to both questions is the same.

I’ll give you a clue…it isn’t us.

[ropy]

7 hours ago, wellsince75 said:

It wasn't great. It's the first time our formation looked all over the shop. Killie had 6 shots on goal to our 1. 

I don't think for a moment players have downed tools , more lack of confidence and lots of individual errors.  Example Kelly was poor at the goal, which is a real shame has he'd a couple of very good saves before they scored. 

I don't remember their keeper having a save to make to be honest, we didn't lay a glove on them. 

Keeper had to save McGinn’s pass back 

[bobbybingo]

26 minutes ago, MJC said:

Who has won two trophys since we last managed it in 1991? Us or Kilmarnock?

Who has beaten Rangers several times in the league since 2002? Us or Kilmarnock?

The answer to both questions is the same.

I’ll give you a clue…it isn’t us.

Maybe the reason Kilmarnock splashed out on McInnes was to make sure they got out of the Championship. He does well in that league.

And maybe the reason we didn't push the boat out was because we absolutely fucked 2 of his teams in cup semi-finals, or it could've been the fact this managerial giant won a total of one trophy with Aberdeen's budget and fan base behind him.

[twistandshout1983]

2 hours ago, MJC said:

Who has won two trophys since we last managed it in 1991? Us or Kilmarnock?

Who has beaten Rangers several times in the league since 2002? Us or Kilmarnock?

The answer to both questions is the same.

I’ll give you a clue…it isn’t us.

No doubt Killie will beat both Rangers and Celtic  again , and probably pick up silverware before we do as our mindset as a club has been wrong for a good few years now in big games

I really hope I am wrong about Kettlewell , and he turns things around soon and too early to push the panic button . Not so sure though .  Have to beat St Johnstone now .  Hopefully get the 3 points

Edited November 5, 2023 by twistandshout1983

[SteelmaninOZ]

How Goggsy99 saw the game 

 

[SteelmaninOZ]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:53 AM, grizzlyg said:

Tempted to go 4 4 1 1 for this. 

Kelly

McGinn. Butcher. Casey.  Spencer

                         Davor

Paton.             Slattery.           Spittal

                        Miller

                      Haven't a Scooby!!

Mika if fully fit would obviously start but I wouldn't as that pitch could knock his comeback and put him out again.   I honestly don't know who to start up front.....feck it ...give young Luca Ross a start....can't be any worse than Wilko....Shaw and Bair

I hear Scooby is not bad

[grizzlyg]

10 minutes ago, SteelmaninOZ said:

I hear Scooby is not bad

Ideal for a scrappy game!! Ba boom

[SteelmaninOZ]

4 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

Ideal for a scrappy game!! Ba boom

😅

[MJC]

11 hours ago, bobbybingo said:

Maybe the reason Kilmarnock splashed out on McInnes was to make sure they got out of the Championship. He does well in that league.

And maybe the reason we didn't push the boat out was because we absolutely fucked 2 of his teams in cup semi-finals, or it could've been the fact this managerial giant won a total of one trophy with Aberdeen's budget and fan base behind him.

And if we were in the Championship do you seriously think we would have gone out and appointed a manager who won a cup, finished second several times and took Aberdeen to numerous semis/finals? Not a chance! We would be howling even longer and louder than we usually do about how skint we were and how we would have to cut our cloth and tighten our belts and all that pish.

10 hours ago, twistandshout1983 said:

No doubt Killie will beat both Rangers and Celtic  again , and probably pick up silverware before we do as our mindset as a club has been wrong for a good few years now in big games

It’s more than just a good few years now, I’d say more like 15-20 and social media has made it even worse imo.

[bobbybingo]

1 hour ago, MJC said:

And if we were in the Championship do you seriously think we would have gone out and appointed a manager who won a cup, finished second several times and took Aberdeen to numerous semis/finals? Not a chance! We would be howling even longer and louder than we usually do about how skint we were and how we would have to cut our cloth and tighten our belts and all that pish.

We weren't in the Championship, they were.

Is your ambition for Motherwell, to finish second in the league and get to cup semis/finals? Done both - at McInnes' expense and on a smaller budget. 

For non Old Firm teams, winning cups  has as much to do with luck as anything else, you can't just buy your way to a trophy. But if you really want us to go for it with managers and players, you have to be talking about a new owner, because we all realise the fan base won't provide the money required for that. I have no idea where we'd find someone who wanted to pump cash into Motherwell, but who knows, maybe there's another John Boyle just waiting out there....

 

 

[MJC]

My point was that if we had been in the Championship then there was no way we would have appointed McInnes or anyone of that calibre. Kilmarnock themselves weren’t in the Championship in 2017 when they appointed Steve Clarke, a man who had managed in the English Premier League and been assistant to Jose Mourinho at Chelsea and also been involved at Liverpool. Again that is the type of appointment we just would not make. Likewise St.Johnstone appointing Craig Levein, a solid, experienced and high profile manager in the Scottish game just wouldn’t happen at Fir Park. We couldn’t/didn’t even sign Steven Fletcher in the summer there when we were crying out for a striker, but we baulked at his demands and instead used the money on deals for Shaw, Wilkinson and Bair ffs!

I’m not asking or expecting us to be challenging for the top two spots or to be getting to semis/finals regularly, this is the type of retort anyone who dares suggest we show a bit more ambition always gets. I would just like to see us as a club aim a bit higher than simply finishing above 11th every season and not exit every Cup competition early and/or as soon as we are paired with a top flight side.

[bobbybingo]

5 hours ago, MJC said:

My point was that if we had been in the Championship then there was no way we would have appointed McInnes or anyone of that calibre. Kilmarnock themselves weren’t in the Championship in 2017 when they appointed Steve Clarke, a man who had managed in the English Premier League and been assistant to Jose Mourinho at Chelsea and also been involved at Liverpool. Again that is the type of appointment we just would not make. Likewise St.Johnstone appointing Craig Levein, a solid, experienced and high profile manager in the Scottish game just wouldn’t happen at Fir Park. We couldn’t/didn’t even sign Steven Fletcher in the summer there when we were crying out for a striker, but we baulked at his demands and instead used the money on deals for Shaw, Wilkinson and Bair ffs!

I’m not asking or expecting us to be challenging for the top two spots or to be getting to semis/finals regularly, this is the type of retort anyone who dares suggest we show a bit more ambition always gets. I would just like to see us as a club aim a bit higher than simply finishing above 11th every season and not exit every Cup competition early and/or as soon as we are paired with a top flight side.

You just want us to aim a bit higher than simply finishing 11th every season and not exit every cup competition early? Ok.

Since 2010 we've finished 2nd twice, 3rd twice and in the top 6 on 3 other occasions. You can roughly work out our European jaunts from that. I'd put our league finishes up against those of half the other teams in this league anytime.

In the same period, we've reached 3 cup finals, one semi and 6 quarter finals. Obviously that's not good enough for you.

You can ponder what we'd have done if we had been in the Championship all day long, but the point is, we haven't been for a ridiculously long time. Can big spenders like Hearts, Hibs or Dundee Utd say that? Talking of Utd, they did give Fletcher what he wanted and also shelled out enough to nick our top scorer. How'd that work out for them? As for our signings this season, that's down to very poor judgement, not a lack of ambition.

Steve Clarke was clearly a guy on his way up when he went to Killie, so well done to them for that, but McInnes is past his best. Levein will probably get a debut 3 points tomorrow night, but that won't be anything to do with his managerial skills at this late stage. He started well with Hearts, failed in England, did well with Dundee Utd, failed with Scotland and failed on his return to Tynecastle. He has won absolutely nothing so far as a manager, and he'll win nowt in Perth either.

My first Motherwell team was assembled with ambition and loads of dough. Loved them, great to watch, but won nothing, fell apart after 2 or 3 seasons and we ended up skint in the First Division. We appointed an ex Aberdeen and Scotland manager straight from a World Cup and had to bullet him before we could get back up. John Boyle's ambition took us into administration.

I'm realistic about our place in Scottish football - it doesn' stop me hoping we can rise above that every season, but I remember we could just as easily fall below it.