Motherwell v Dundee 02/12/2023

[texanwellfan]

3 hours ago, Happy Dosser said:

I thought the same at the time and so did a few of the intelligensia around me in the POD and yet it wasn't mentioned on Sportscene either.

As for Paton, it looked like he was focused on the high ball but a fractional late. There was no malice in the tackle and none of the 'Dee players reacted to it at the time.

I may be clutching at straws but Wilkinson's goal was surprisingly well taken and he was unlucky with another two efforts so he may be finally getting up to speed. Either that or I've taken too much cough mixture.

The scorer was onside

[texanwellfan]

4 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Watched highlights last night, Paton really unlucky to see red.... there's no malice in that challenge.

I thought var would be a good thing but I wouldn't be against it being scaled back to maybe being allowed 2 challenges per team per game.

He didn’t go in with studs up. He is clearly focused on the ball and attempts to sky it up the park. However, the Dundee player jumps in and gets ball before Paton and collided with Patons studs. At most a yellow i suppose I don’t know what the guidelines are that SK mentioned

[SteelmaninOZ]

And this makes 3

 

[El Grew]

20 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Every single manager should get at least the first two rounds of matches and that's not taking into consideration any bonus points for past endevours.

Our fans need to take a cold, hard look at the reality of fan ownership.  What is it you expect the club to achieve? Top 6 every season?  Brilliant players, amazing football?

Also there is a lot of frankly deluded moaning.  Fans were moaning when Alexander got us into Europe.  That's where a lot of our fan base is these days. They don't seem to enjoy supporting a town club and everything that goes along with it.  

And there is plenty of decisions Kettlewell has made that I don't get or flat out disagree with but so what?  

We are not detached in terms of points, performances, quality of squad.  There are things that can be improved but for me we've mostly been competitive.

If we are hitting re-start after 14-15 matches every season we are going to have a foundation and no roof on a permanent basis.  And the usually suspects complaining that the rain is coming in.

 

Good post and as I said in response to a very similar one a few weeks ago it gets right to the nub of the problem:

“Due to our financial limitations we are unable to sign better quality players or pay more attractive wages than most of our peer clubs.

This means it’s difficult to attract a better quality of manager than those we’ve had as the better ones have probably baulked at the lack of finances available to them.

Also, the quality of player we have and have been bringing in for a number of seasons now (with a few exceptions) is as good as we can afford and as we’re starting to see, the quality is now pretty poor.

I’m afraid I can’t see this situation improving in either the short or long term and we may well need to prepare for lower league football.”

Fans need to wake up and realise the financial limitations our club is working under. We craved a fan-owned club after the administration debacle under John Boyle’s stewardship and we got it. However, we simply do not have a big enough fanbase for this model to be sustainable and things are simply going from bad to worse as a result. I’m not against fan-ownership but maybe the model needs to be re-visited.  Perhaps with a view to seeking out a business person(s) interested in coming onboard in some sort of financial partnership with the existing fan-ownership.

Ill get the Kevlar vest on ready for the flak flying.

[FirParkCornerExile]

21 hours ago, AllyMax said:

And scored as many as St Mirren and more than everyone bar Celtic/Rangers and Hibs. 

I'm not saying everything is rosy, but they're no where near as apocalyptic as some people suggest.

If we could defend any better than a pub team we'd be in the top 6. 4th highest scorers worst against record tells us all we need to know. That said the defence may not be quite as poor if we didn't have an utterly abysmal midfield. I sincerely hope any transfer activity we have in January doesn't focus solely on the defence or forward line. We need hard tackling midfielders who can win the ball and unsurprisingly someone who can pass the ball 20 feet and find one of our players when under no pressure.  We rarely win the second ball and are pretty powder puff in the tackle.

[ropy]

11 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

If we could defend any better than a pub team we'd be in the top 6. 4th highest scorers worst against record tells us all we need to know. That said the defence may not be quite as poor if we didn't have an utterly abysmal midfield. I sincerely hope any transfer activity we have in January doesn't focus solely on the defence or forward line. We need hard tackling midfielders who can win the ball and unsurprisingly someone who can pass the ball 20 feet and find one of our players when under no pressure.  We rarely win the second ball and are pretty powder puff in the tackle.

I think we were misguided in thinking that the defence was fine given that last season’s success was built on that plus KVV.  Then we got confused by thinking that we have a shocking selection of strikers except that they have all scored goals (Shaw just does assists).

But I think you are right the issue may be the midfield.  We need to find a formation where we can retain the ball, protect the defence and feed the attack.  A tall order but some other teams manage to do it.

[fizoxy]

11 minutes ago, El Grew said:

Good post and as I said in response to a very similar one a few weeks ago it gets right to the nub of the problem:

 

“Due to our financial limitations we are unable to sign better quality players or pay more attractive wages than most of our peer clubs.

This means it’s difficult to attract a better quality of manager than those we’ve had as the better ones have probably baulked at the lack of finances available to them.

Also, the quality of player we have and have been bringing in for a number of seasons now (with a few exceptions) is as good as we can afford and as we’re starting to see, the quality is now pretty poor.

I’m afraid I can’t see this situation improving in either the short or long term and we may well need to prepare for lower league football.”

Fans need to wake up and realise the financial limitations our club is working under. We craved a fan-owned club after the administration debacle under John Boyle’s stewardship and we got it. However, we simply do not have a big enough fanbase for this model to be sustainable and things are simply going from bad to worse as a result. I’m not against fan-ownership but maybe the model needs to be re-visited.  Perhaps with a view to seeking out a business person(s) interested in coming onboard in some sort of financial partnership with the existing fan-ownership.

Ill get the Kevlar vest on ready for the flak flying.

I agree that we should manage our expectations due to the financial limitations we are under, however, there's at least one club in our division that brings in less money than us, if not more, and there aren't many in the championship that can compete with us financially. We're definitely there or thereabouts when it comes to the 12 biggest clubs in the country from a financial perspective. That doesn't guarantee anything of course, when you see what has happened to utd, hibs, and hearts.

Now, where I think we have a big problem is that we have often relied on things like quality players devoting their careers to us (lasley, hammell), chief executives working for peanuts, and shrewd decisions on managers and signings. The first point is out of our control now with the way the game is, but the decision making at executive level has been killing us for the last few years.

I don't think we can afford the kind of chief exec that we all want, especially when we're actively cutting budgets, so we're relying on someone doing us a favor, and that will get old pretty fast.

[Spiderpig]

38 minutes ago, El Grew said:

. However, we simply do not have a big enough fanbase for this model to be sustainable and things are simply going from bad to worse as a result.

That was my view from the outset and its not changed, yes the fans should be represented on the board etc, but fan ownership on an average crowd of 3.5 to 5k is not a workable / sustainable option the club still needs outside investment from a company, individual or both, so unless the current operating model changes I see the club being financially constrained and living from hand to mouth for a few years to come.

[texanwellfan]

39 minutes ago, El Grew said:

Good post and as I said in response to a very similar one a few weeks ago it gets right to the nub of the problem:

 

“Due to our financial limitations we are unable to sign better quality players or pay more attractive wages than most of our peer clubs.

This means it’s difficult to attract a better quality of manager than those we’ve had as the better ones have probably baulked at the lack of finances available to them.

Also, the quality of player we have and have been bringing in for a number of seasons now (with a few exceptions) is as good as we can afford and as we’re starting to see, the quality is now pretty poor.

I’m afraid I can’t see this situation improving in either the short or long term and we may well need to prepare for lower league football.”

Fans need to wake up and realise the financial limitations our club is working under. We craved a fan-owned club after the administration debacle under John Boyle’s stewardship and we got it. However, we simply do not have a big enough fanbase for this model to be sustainable and things are simply going from bad to worse as a result. I’m not against fan-ownership but maybe the model needs to be re-visited.  Perhaps with a view to seeking out a business person(s) interested in coming onboard in some sort of financial partnership with the existing fan-ownership.

Ill get the Kevlar vest on ready for the flak flying.

Agree, we need some financial backing for the club. Having said that I don’t think fan ownership was implemented as the be all and end all. I think any decent fan would welcome appropriate well managed investment in the club. 

[SteelmaninOZ]

Goggsy99’s view 

 

[SteelmaninOZ]

This from the club’s media team 

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

22 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

That was my view from the outset and its not changed, yes the fans should be represented on the board etc, but fan ownership on an average crowd of 3.5 to 5k is not a workable / sustainable option the club still needs outside investment from a company, individual or both, so unless the current operating model changes I see the club being financially constrained and living from hand to mouth for a few years to come.

It can work in terms of being competitive in the division and the club not going to the wall.

Fans however need to manage their expectations.  Just think about your own bills and then imagine you were running flood lights and undersoil heating on top of that and you might get an inkling.

We are 8th right now and as close to 5th as 12th.

That seems well within reasonable expectations.  

Of course that might change and if we continue to not get 3 points it will definitely change but right now we need to hold steady and support the players and management.

[Well Well]

2 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

It can work in terms of being competitive in the division and the club not going to the wall.

Fans however need to manage their expectations.  Just think about your own bills and then imagine you were running flood lights and undersoil heating on top of that and you might get an inkling.

We are 8th right now and as close to 5th as 12th.

That seems well within reasonable expectations.  

Of course that might change and if we continue to not get 3 points it will definitely change but right now we need to hold steady and support the players and management.

We are not running our under soil heating. We are using the covers.

[FirParkCornerExile]

4 minutes ago, Well Well said:

We are not running our under soil heating. We are using the covers.

We are not running our under soil heating because it's not required with the current temperatures . Why would we when the covers do the job. It's got feck all to do with cost cutting. It got to do with doing what required.

[santheman]

4 hours ago, texanwellfan said:

He didn’t go in with studs up. He is clearly focused on the ball and attempts to sky it up the park. However, the Dundee player jumps in and gets ball before Paton and collided with Patons studs. At most a yellow i suppose I don’t know what the guidelines are that SK mentioned

Just watched the Man City Spurs game and an identical tackle to Patons by a Spurs player got him a yellow.

Not even a hint of VAR.

[dennyc]

2 hours ago, El Grew said:

Good post and as I said in response to a very similar one a few weeks ago it gets right to the nub of the problem:

 

“Due to our financial limitations we are unable to sign better quality players or pay more attractive wages than most of our peer clubs.

This means it’s difficult to attract a better quality of manager than those we’ve had as the better ones have probably baulked at the lack of finances available to them.

Also, the quality of player we have and have been bringing in for a number of seasons now (with a few exceptions) is as good as we can afford and as we’re starting to see, the quality is now pretty poor.

I’m afraid I can’t see this situation improving in either the short or long term and we may well need to prepare for lower league football.”

Fans need to wake up and realise the financial limitations our club is working under. We craved a fan-owned club after the administration debacle under John Boyle’s stewardship and we got it. However, we simply do not have a big enough fanbase for this model to be sustainable and things are simply going from bad to worse as a result. I’m not against fan-ownership but maybe the model needs to be re-visited.  Perhaps with a view to seeking out a business person(s) interested in coming onboard in some sort of financial partnership with the existing fan-ownership.

Ill get the Kevlar vest on ready for the flak flying.

No need to get that vest out. What you say is reality.

Regards Business involvement with Motherwell FC........ When L Dempster first unveiled the aspiration of Fan Ownership, there was a fair amount of discussion about Corporate Membership of the Well Society. At that time there was a realisation that our fan numbers would struggle to support a fan ownership model long term and so Corporate investment was essential. There has been a fair bit of publicity about Society numbers reaching 3500, but nowhere have I heard about any local business coming on board. The economic climate and CoVid haven't helped but does anyone know if we have any Corporate Members and how much income that generates each month?

In a recent discussion, David highlighted Bodo Glimt as a similar sized Club to ourselves who could teach us a few things about structure and the use of analytics. Certainly food for thought and got me looking more closely at the set up in Norway.

From what I gather (and David can keep me right here?), the Norwegian model is that all Clubs must be owned by their Membership. Fan ownership if you like. And an attempt to protect Clubs from being bankrupted by egotists with no knowledge of football.

But having moved to that arrangement some years ago it quickly became evident that many clubs, including BG, were struggling due to lack of resources. Just like Motherwell. So a form of Business Partnership was allowed whereby Businesses could purchase/fund non football aspects of a Club. Bodo Glimt now have a number of Business partners, including a major Norwegian Bank, who contribute to the Club without having input to, or ownership of, football operations. The arrangement has been a huge success at BG and they have gone from strength to strength boosted by that essential finance and coupled with a Board willing to adopt modern practices.

European success has just added to their growth which last season included TV income of over £7m. We can only dream.

I agree with El Grew, if we continue as we are I think that ongoing decline in quality will only take us in one direction. Just compare our squad season on season. The occasional Turnbull like sale or KVV magic season may delay that decline, but it is a risky strategy. Other Clubs have suffered similarly regards finances, but without the burden of fan ownership they have been assisted by overseas investment or rescued by their sugar daddy. 

[Inflato]

9 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

On paper I agreed too, but on the field it soon became apparent that the actual formation was causing us serious problems. An out of touch Butcher was playing almost as part of a back 6, with a 2, possibly 3 man midfield and an isolated striker having to feed off long aerial balls...

To quote a mate, "Butcher looks like a centre half playing in midfield". He was miles out of his depth yesterday, contributed nothing offensively and was poor defensively, leaving Paton and Spittal with too much on their plate. We made a half-decent Dundee midfield look like world beaters at time.

The lack of quality in our squad isn't helped when Slattery is out with his predictable suspensions, but there has to be a better option than Butcher in midfield.

I hope that his wee mini-tantrum in the dugout was because he knew he'd had a stinker, because of it was anger at being subbed he's having a laugh... He should've been pulled at half-time.

[Spiderpig]

3 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

We are not running our under soil heating because it's not required with the current temperatures . Why would we when the covers do the job. It's got feck all to do with cost cutting. It got to do with doing what required.

That's like saying I won't turn the heating on in the house, I'll just wrap a blanket round me, it's not the money, the blanket does the job.

Given the rise in fuel costs etc It's not being used to save money no other reason, it's been at least -5 or -6  degrees below in recent nights, luckily the covers done the job but not using the underground heating is another possible indicator of just how skint the club is, it's not a good sign.

[santheman]

32 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

That's like saying I won't turn the heating on in the house, I'll just wrap a blanket round me, it's not the money, the blanket does the job.

Given the rise in fuel costs etc It's not being used to save money no other reason, it's been at least -5 or -6  degrees below in recent nights, luckily the covers done the job but not using the underground heating is another possible indicator of just how skint the club is, it's not a good sign.

Every time the undersoil heating is used it kills the grass roots so if it can be avoided by using covers it is. (As told to me by the head groundsman on Saturday)

 

[Kmcalpin]

13 minutes ago, santheman said:

Every time the undersoil heating is used it kills the grass roots so if it can be avoided by using covers it is. (As told to me by the head groundsman on Saturday)

John Chapman, a farmer by occupation, told me exactly the same thing. It bakes the soil.

[ropy]

2 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

John Chapman, a farmer by occupation, told me exactly the same thing. It bakes the soil.

It certainly did when that soil was clay

[Chanzeypopz]

Just watched the highlights, Absolutely pathetic red card and Paton should never have been sent off. Despite being down to 10 men we managed to earn a hard fought point, Wilkinson really needed that goal and im happy for him.

[joewarkfanclub]

Another disappointing performance, but given the circumstances a more than acceptable result in the end.

The Paton red card is a poor decision for me. In real time you can clearly see he is going for the ball and McCowan just nicks it in front of him.

Could easily have been the other way about. The yellow card was the right decision and not a clear and obvious error so VAR shouldnt be getting involved.

The minute VAR is involved and you slow things down and use freeze frames you are taking the context of the tackle away and its easy to make it look horiffic.

Its good to see the team keep going until the end and digging out a point with another late equaliser. Shows the team spirit is still there.

Just wish we didnt have to keep doing it.

Big couple games coming up for SK.

[FirParkCornerExile]

21 hours ago, wellfan said:

Too much cough mixture. Four goals in seventeen appearances does not make him a good striker at this level. We need another striker capable of producing at least double that return instead of persisting with the likes of Shaw, Bair and Wilkinson. I leave Obika out of that, as he is head and shoulders above those three in terms of his ability and support play. Does Biereth have a twin?!

We need some decent midfielders before another striker. Scoring goals is not our problem this season. Our midfield is as weak as dishwater and when a suspect defence has no protection in front of it we will always give away piss poor goals.

 

Is it just my TV but does every floodlit game at Motherwell look as if it's illuminated by 40 watt bulbs, dark patches everywhere.

[Kmcalpin]

19 hours ago, texanwellfan said:

The scorer was onside

I've watched the highlight over and again and still reckon he was off. If he was onside it was gey close and yet no VAR check. Odd, given the nitpicking over other decisions in the game. Even if he was onside weren't the other 2 Dundee players interfering with play given their proximity to our goal line? At the very least they would have been distracting Kelly.