Motherwell v St Johnstone 09/12/2023

[David]

13 hours ago, smiddy said:

so david a continuation of our discussion            would you our manager  and our international manager now consider giving our keeper a wee spell on the bench ????????    cause that goal conceeded  today was well and truely below amatuarish standards  never mind international standards,  captain or not, maybe time to c what the ox has got about him

Well, just like you and every other Motherwell fan, I've not seen much of Oxborough. But, the manager and the coaching team has. They see him every single day. And over the 18 months that he's been at the club he's rarely kicked a ball, which tells me all I need to know. I think when his contract ends he'll quietly disappear into obscurity.

Would I drop Kelly? The answer is no. Because the one thing the manager has going for him right now is that the team is still together and fighting for him. Dropping Kelly, the captain, and clearly someone who is well-liked and influential in the dressing room for a keeper who has hardly played a game for us could affect that dressing room dynamic. 

Fans don't really think about that aspect of the choices a manager has to make. They just think "player A has been rubbish of late, punt him out the team, and get someone new in."

It's never that simple, sadly. The decisions made will affect the moral and general vibe of the team and could turn players against the manager, and dropping your captain is always going to be a huge move. 

Dropping Kelly right now wouldn't be for "a wee spell." Doing that would basically signal the end of his Motherwell career. He wouldn't be coming back from that in all likelihood. 

You'd be stripping him of the captaincy, dropping him, and opening a can of worms in the wider squad that I think could cause more issues.

It's a tough situation, because Kelly is definitely going through a rough spell. 

The manager has one of two choices to make.

Drop Kelly, strip him of the captaincy, bring in a keeper that neither he nor the manager before him has considered anywhere near good enough to this point, and risk the dynamic of the dressing room being turned on its head, possibly against the manager. 

Or stick with Kelly, and gamble that his form will return. By doing so the manager would win the support of the players and the captain by showing that he is the type of gaffer who sticks by his players when they're going through a tough spell. That action would ensure that the squad keep fighting for him I think.

So, for me, it's option number 2. And I know many fans won't agree, which is fine.

[Kmcalpin]

From an objective point of view, a draw was the right result yesterday. for St Johnstone it was a must not lose game and they didn't. They came for a point and were patient in waiting for the inevitable chance via Kelly but they wouldn't have been fussy as a goals a goal irrespective of who gives them it. They played as we knew they would. Dull, reliable, solid, well organised, hard working, streetwise, and physical. In contrast we did look a bit more solid but did not seem to have any gameplan as to how to attack.

I thought Gent played very well and gave us something new on the left. Davor was fine, although a little lightweight. Why haven't these 2 lads been starting?  Up front though Biereth was all too often on his own. Obika didn't link up with him and was played too deep. Although he scored a cracking goal, SK is simply not getting the best out of Biereth. He has much more to offer. 

A must win game for us and we fell short....again.

The referee was poor. He was weak and inconsistent and allowed Saints to run rings round him. Again timekeeping was inexplicable. 

In short a limp conclusion to a winnable run of important games. We are just papering over the cracks with late equalising goals

[stv]

10 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

We have the bones of a good squad. They're not rubbish as a few have suggested, but SK is not getting the best out of them. 

Exactly the same squad that played so well at the start of the season. 

[SteelmaninOZ]

Cracker of a goal 

 

[wellsince75]

50 minutes ago, stv said:

Exactly the same squad that played so well at the start of the season. 

Confidence from winning /not losing plays a massive part in all teams .
 

The opposite is equally true. 
 

where we appear different from most clubs is the sustained period of good vs bad .  We had a run of 13 games without losing then have a run of 13 games without winning .

 

this has happened with our last 4 gaffers . I don’t ever remember a period of following the team. 

[grizzlyg]

I really feel sorry for Kelly just now as his confidence totally gone and David actually makes a good case of why he shouldn't be dropped.

What I will say and it's maybe been missed by folk is that he made a vital save at 0-1 when Saints player was clean through 

[Tamwell]

44 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

What I will say and it's maybe been missed by folk is that he made a vital save at 0-1 when Saints player was clean through 

That’s his job.

[David]

1 hour ago, Tamwell said:

That’s his job.

And if we're going to give him absolute pelters when he makes a mistake it's only fair we give him credit when he pulls off a good save.

[Yodo]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

I really feel sorry for Kelly just now as his confidence totally gone and David actually makes a good case of why he shouldn't be dropped.

What I will say and it's maybe been missed by folk is that he made a vital save at 0-1 when Saints player was clean through 

That’s what he’s there for unfortunately for us he is the worst keeper in the league and doesn’t do it often enough 

[Tamwell]

11 minutes ago, David said:

And if we're going to give him absolute pelters when he makes a mistake it's only fair we give him credit when he pulls off a good save.

He cost us the game yesterday. But yeah, well done for making a save I suppose.

[David]

12 minutes ago, Tamwell said:

He cost us the game yesterday. But yeah, well done for making a save I suppose.

He doesn't make that second save and we get nothing from the game. Also, he doesn't save that penalty against Celtic at Celtic Park and we could have gotten hee haw from that game as well.

The point I'm making is, aye, he makes mistakes. If he didn't he wouldn't be at Motherwell. But, if we're going to batter the guy for his errors, then it's only fair that we mention how good he also is at times.

[Tamwell]

3 minutes ago, David said:

He doesn't make that second save and we get nothing from the game. Also, he doesn't save that penalty against Celtic at Celtic Park and we could have gotten hee haw from that game as well.

The point I'm making is, aye, he makes mistakes. If he didn't he wouldn't be at Motherwell. But, if we're going to batter the guy for his errors, then it's only fair that we mention how good he also is at times.

I didn’t mention the Celtic game. I thought he was outstanding in that particular match, as he has been in countless matches for us. What would you give him out of 10 for yesterday’s match? As a matter of interest.

[David]

5 minutes ago, Tamwell said:

I didn’t mention the Celtic game. I thought he was outstanding in that particular match, as he has been in countless matches for us. What would you give him out of 10 for yesterday’s match? As a matter of interest.

Yesterday. A six. At most.

[star sail]

I was a GK myself when I played football ( although never professionally) and I always used to get frustrated when I watched outfield players make several mistakes in a game ( misplaced passes, missed tackles, poor control) only for the finger to be pointed when one goal- keeping mistake lead to a goal. It is in the nature of their positioning on the park that makes their mistakes so much more notable.

I agree with David. Kelly has been an excellent servant to the club. He is an international goalkeeper for a reason and he will have been made captain because of the positive influence he has on the squad. There is far more good than bad to consider dropping him. It will be tough for Kelly just now and he himself might actually welcome a break. Hopefully his relationship with Kettlewell is strong enough that they could have that conversation if need be.

I think he is being judged harshly at the moment. Yesterday was a mistake that on another day he may have got away with. The 3rd goal at RC I thought was actually a descent reactive save. He was just unlucky that the ball landed at the feet of an RC player. Again on another night he may have got away with it.

[Tamwell]

I like Kelly btw. I just don’t get how anyone is praising him after yesterday.

[Spiderpig]

10 minutes ago, Tamwell said:

I like Kelly btw. I just don’t get how anyone is praising him after yesterday.

Because he effectively gained us a point yesterday by making a great save to stop us going 2-0 down 

[Orinoco]

21 hours ago, Orinoco said:

Only 4 mins of extra time, yet again we get screwed, not as it will matter mind you.  A draw is probably still not enough.

8 Mins added as Killie are beating Celtic. No way there was even 4 mins extra needed. The corruption in this league by the officials is beyond a joke. That pitch is one hell of an advantage to Killie, perhaps we should get rind of our bowling green.

[Tamwell]

2 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Because he effectively gained us a point yesterday by making a great save to stop us going 2-0 down 

Hit right at him. He lost us points yesterday.

[Spiderpig]

10 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

8 Mins added as Killie are beating Celtic. No way there was even 4 mins extra needed. The corruption in this league by the officials is beyond a joke. That pitch is one hell of an advantage to Killie, perhaps we should get rind of our bowling green.

I agree the Killie pitch is a disgrace the vast majority of their points every season are gained at home,they ended up playing over 10 mins of added time. To be fair though they deserved the win, Celtic were shite.

[Orinoco]

Kelly is a shot stopper, with questionable decision making and for that has been told to stay on his line by the coaches? (Obviously he had a brain fart yesterday and left his line) He has and will continue to win and lose us points.

I am sure Kettlewell is aware of his limitations, but is sticking with him due to loyality, and belief it could harm the team spirit. 

 

[Spit_It_Out]

Look Kelly is only human at the end of the day and this has been his worst season for us maybe the upcoming break will do him the world of good folk need to cut him some slack he has gave us more points I bet than cost us.

He is still a very capable goalkeeper look at the save against Celtic the other week just needs to get that confidence boost back hopefully the break will do him good.

I would find it more alarming why Kettlewell hasn't played Gent and Davor more that's what folk should really be questioning.

 

[Orinoco]

7 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

I agree the Killie pitch is a disgrace the vast majority of their points every season are gained at home,they ended up playing over 10 mins of added time. To be fair though they deserved the win, Celtic were shite.

Agree Killie were the better team 2nd Half, and deserved their win. 

[dennyc]

2 hours ago, star sail said:

 

I agree with David. Kelly has been an excellent servant to the club. He is an international goalkeeper for a reason and he will have been made captain because of the positive influence he has on the squad. There is far more good than bad to consider dropping him. It will be tough for Kelly just now and he himself might actually welcome a break. Hopefully his relationship with Kettlewell is strong enough that they could have that conversation if need be.

 

Exactly this. Spot on.

Every single player made mistakes yesterday. As they did at Dingwall and last week against Dundee. And every game before that. In reality Kelly prevents a good many of those errors turning into goals conceded. The difference is that Kelly is a target for some, and any good he does is conveniently ignored or looked upon as him "just doing his job". He did not cost us a win yesterday. I could easily argue that the inability of Biereth, Obika, Gent, Spittal, Slattery etc etc cost us the win because of their inability to score two goals between them.

And I wonder if those wanting Oxborough brought in have actually seen him play. He hardly pushed his case for inclusion in his League Cup appearances. He is another that for some folk gets better the more he does not play. Not slating him, just saying that Kelly is the better keeper and the safer option.  Or perhaps some folk just fancy a wee trip to the likes of Ayr and Inverness. Drop Kelly and the chances of that increase.

We need to stick with him.

 

[couttsy]

Agree with David, Star Sail, and Denny, no doubt Kelly’s going through a very rough patch, and if he was an outfielder player he would have been “rested” by now, however dropping him at this stage for a goalie very few of us have seen much of (and the manager has overlooked for months) would be a huge gamble. Kelly is an experienced player at this stage in his career and given time and support he’ll come good. 

[Big Stall]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

 

And I wonder if those wanting Oxborough brought in have actually seen him play. He hardly pushed his case for inclusion in his League Cup appearances. He is another that for some folk gets better the more he does not play. Not slating him, just saying that Kelly is the better keeper and the safer option.  Or perhaps some folk just fancy a wee trip to the likes of Ayr and Inverness. Drop Kelly and the chances of that increase.

 

 

I don't think anyone expects Ox to be an exceptional keeper. I think what those of us who are calling for him is purely because Kelly has been horrific in the last few months and if you are going to pay a fee for a reserve keeper then he must have something about him. The reserve keepers job is to keep the main keeper on his toes and be ready to push for a place. Competition is what is needed and if a spell on the sidelines gets Kelly back up and firing then even better.

The absolute nonsense I have been reading upthread that we can't drop the goalie incase it hurts his or anyone elses feelings is head scratching. Every Keeper - infact every player in every team should know that if they do not perform then someone else gets a chance. If Portugal can do it with Ronaldo then we can certainly do it with Kelly.